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Old 05-06-2005, 10:32 AM   #26
spit_heron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMJ
Polished metal retains more heat than a rough surface would.
well, not when its wrapped and taped.
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Old 05-06-2005, 11:27 AM   #27
ride5000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spit_heron
well, not when its wrapped and taped.
sure it does!
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Old 05-06-2005, 11:48 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000
sure it does!
i would think the primary modes of heat transfer would be conduction through the walls, conduction to the wrap (with a pretty high contact resistance), conduction to the tape, then convection off the tape, with a little emiittance to surroundings. No?
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Old 05-06-2005, 12:07 PM   #29
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for the most part, i agree with your prioritizations.

remember though that as materials get near 1200* F they begin emitting visible light. i wouldn't be that surprised to see the cast sections hit those temps on long highway pulls. i think we'd all agree that something visibly glowing hot is pretty hot!

i think radiation plays a bigger part in the throwing off of exhaust heat than you may be attributing. to get a feel for it, all you need to do is do a pull, stop the car, and put your arm under the front bumper to feel it... no conduction, no convection, only radiation.

in any event, a light surface polish certainly doesn't hurt (ie, make radiation WORSE), and the main purpose was to preserve the integrity of the relatively fragile wrap. anything else is gravy in my mind. it literally took about 15 minutes with the angle grinder and flap disc.
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Old 05-06-2005, 12:17 PM   #30
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i have a question, once you get past the gasket area, is there anymore cutting to do or are you just polishing it? i want to try this on mine, but i'm not sure if i could keep it even down inside the pipes.
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Old 05-06-2005, 12:27 PM   #31
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with unwrapped manifolds, radiation off the cast walls is certainly a significant loss of heat.

I guess im saying that the only surface that can radiate to surroundings in your setup is the outer layer, i.e. the tape (which will have a pretty low emissivity).

As you said, it seems the benefits of not having an abrasive surface against the wrap is worth the time itself though. Parts look good man! Let us know how that tape holds up.
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Old 05-06-2005, 12:37 PM   #32
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disorto:

feathering your materials removal down into the bore of the pipes is what differentiates a mediocre job from a great one. i found the most useful carbide bit to be this one:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=38687

i liked it because it offers straight sides. if you're attentive while grinding you can use this to your advantage to insure a relatively gentle bellmouth/taper from inlet to bore. i started by taking a large amount of material off, right at the inlet, at say a 45* angle, bringing it back to the gasket line. then on subsequent passes i "worked" the point of bit/pipe contact back further and further. by the end of the rough work the bit was cutting across its whole edge. this was my signal that the bellmouth/taper was gentle and gradual enough.

as others in other threads have pointed out, be wary of the pipes in the vicinity of the "flat" portions. you'll see exactly what i mean when you've got them in hand. particularly the LH collector.. cylinder #4 (driver's rear). it's tempting to cut it back hard but the wall thickness doesn't give you much room to work.
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Old 05-06-2005, 01:39 PM   #33
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Nice job. Now as for the stock vs after market... would you do this over an equal length header, ceramic coated of course.
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Old 05-06-2005, 01:50 PM   #34
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Looks good, Ken. Satisfying work to look at when done, eh?
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Old 05-07-2005, 02:07 PM   #35
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would the electric die grinder from harbour freight be enough?http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=44141
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Old 05-07-2005, 03:40 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by distorto
would the electric die grinder from harbour freight be enough?http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=44141
Enough for what? Essentially it is a plug in Dremel tool, with out the extension shaft. I like the extension shaft. Makes it easier to get to hard to reach spots. As to will it do, yes, but more slowly. Bigger tools remove material quicker. A Dremel will work, but it will take longer.
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Old 05-10-2005, 08:35 AM   #37
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update:

so far, no issues with tape coming off. all printing on tape has been burned off. i suspect the adhesive has burned off as well--lots of smells coming from under the hood the first few days, a couple of them rainy. all odors have now stopped. things are looking good. pictures uploaded later. preliminary results show spool ~ 2-3/5ths of a second (2-3 utec log 1 lines) faster. logs will be uploaded as well... maybe even some pretty graphs!

ken
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Old 05-10-2005, 02:45 PM   #38
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Nice writeup, thanks!
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Old 05-10-2005, 03:11 PM   #39
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[chant]

Ken Ken Ken Ken Ken Ken Ken

[\chant]

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Old 05-10-2005, 03:40 PM   #40
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cant wait to see some hard data on this. Nice stuff ken
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Old 05-10-2005, 05:21 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000
update:

so far, no issues with tape coming off.
Sorry if you answered this, I didn't see it when reading over the thread + your writeup, but any reason you choose not to go with something like a couple of worm gear clamps instead of tape?
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Old 05-10-2005, 05:30 PM   #42
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Its taken me about 5 hours to do a set. I however do not use stones, only carbides. The only downside is that you need alot of control to keep from munching the surface in short order.
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Old 05-10-2005, 06:04 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CirrusWRX
Sorry if you answered this, I didn't see it when reading over the thread + your writeup, but any reason you choose not to go with something like a couple of worm gear clamps instead of tape?
the clamps are UNDER the foil.

the wrap is secured by the clamps, so that even if the foil turns out to be an utter failure the wrap will retain integrity. so far the foil is holding out better than expected, and the splash shield hasn't been replaced yet.

hth
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Old 05-10-2005, 10:31 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000
the clamps are UNDER the foil.
d'oh! my bad! that makes sense, thanks.
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Old 05-11-2005, 08:42 AM   #45
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another update:

on a whim while driving for gas last night i decided to turn up the wick a bit, so i reached down and gave my hallman a full turn to the right. with no launch and a very gentle roll on, getting a bar of boost in 1st by 4.5k, topping at 18psi by redline. things were quiet! in fact, so quiet, i almost thought my knock sensor had gone tits up, so i turned on the tuner pro detcans. nope.. no knock.

after filling up, got on the highway and on a 4th gear torque peak full throttle roll on, the boost got a little high (22psi) and i got a cel flash. this was corroborated via the detcans.. a small knock, but knock nonetheless. afrs were spot on, 11.5:1. i slept on it.

this morning before i started the car i extended my max MAP for mapping parameter to 20psi, then knocked a degree off both the 90 and 100 columns. getting on it a bit this morning i hit 21psi on the way into work. the timing adjustment seems to have done the trick, so far at least.

this is WAY more boost than i could have gotten away with w/o knock before the manifold swap, btw... and the manifold is the ONLY thing that's been physically changed. same gas, approximately the same weather, and up to this morning's change of parameters no change in EMS. before folks say i'm blowing hot air, i pulled a 4.3 mafv at 6k in 2nd gear.

(btw don't worry about the consistent operating conditions for the data... i've got enough logs already, and if i need to i can revert the maps and boost.)

not surprisingly, like other VE mods it seems this one will not give you extraordinary power from just bolting it on. by my butt dyno, and eyeballing the logs' delta rpm vs. time, i figure only ~10hp. the real performance comes in tuning for it.

i will say that i'm starting to see the limitations of the internal wastegate on the poor little td04 housing... essentially i get a little boost creep when the load goes up. this may require some more fiddling with the load scale so that i have more of an overboost column to dip into when highway pulling. the little turbo ain't dead yet!

ken
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Old 05-11-2005, 09:41 AM   #46
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Ken,

Good work! I think this mod is worth while, espcially running a BIG turbo. Air in = Air out and you can't jus rely on using a big turbine housing and wheel. On the TD04L, I don't see anything wrong with taking advantage of it 's PR in the mid-range. Of course you've got to taper boost as rpms climb or you will be way over spun and blowing hot air. The problem with running mid-range boost (like 25psi @ 4500) is that the poor little thrust bearing can not handle it for long. This turbo was never designed to run like that.
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Old 05-11-2005, 03:09 PM   #47
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Nice post buddy! I linked this article in my header FAQ for those that want to do it. Ive ported manifolds myself and am intimately aware of the amount of work. I consider myself a better man that you though as I did most of my porting using grinding stones! Carbide Cutters>>>>>>>>>>Grinding Stones.
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Old 05-13-2005, 09:11 AM   #48
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3/4th highway pull last night... egts were >100* cooler than before. i almost didn't believe it, so i did two pulls.

and yes, this is still running 20psi.
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Old 05-13-2005, 09:24 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000
egts were >100* cooler than before.
Ken,

First off thanks for going through all the trouble to document this project. I appreciate it. I do have a question about his EGT drop; I'm confused about what this signifies Does it mean your car's AFR has changed? I wouldn't think so... Since you wrapped your manifolds if anything I would expect your EGTs to increase due to the fact that you are keeping more heat in the exhaust gases... Do you have a theory?

Thanks again,
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Old 05-13-2005, 10:10 AM   #50
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hey cc...

as far as i can tell from the tunerpro, the afr has not changed appreciably. in other words, not more than the usual drift of .2 or .3 afr i see day to day.

the environmental variations are also relatively small. nothing more than 10* F one way or another.

the wrapping isn't what's changing the egts.. imo, afaict, the change is more due to the relaxing of the restrictions of the oem manifold itself. similar to the way gutting cats can lower the egts at the exhaust port, making it easier to pump out the spent gasses by removing obstructions in the piping ends up doing the same thing. i think it's exactly the same result as the reduction in egts found when fitting aftermarket headers. wrapping or not wrapping shouldn't change the PORT temps much, instead it just keeps the heat IN for longer.

i was flabbergasted at the temp difference. i didn't see anything like that delta at idle, or cruise conditions... only WOT. highway pull, running 11.7:1 afr, 18-20psi, and egts were 1500. i wish i had finished my egt logger project...
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