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Old 05-01-2003, 02:35 PM   #26
2.5GT
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I can vouch for the stoutness of the block!! My engine has 185,000+miles on it. All stock components with some new seals changed (original headgaskets too!). I've run the engine (with a 16G) up to 20psi . . . the only reason I stopped was because of the lack of fuel (small stock injectors).

Now if a block with almost 200,000miles can take 16.9psi all day long with a SMALL STi v2 intercooler, I'd say the components are pretty damn good!!

Oh, and if you wanna get in touch with the guy who ran 30psi on a stock ej22g, go here:

http://www.bbs.legacycentral.org/

He posts under the handle milehi
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Old 05-01-2003, 04:08 PM   #27
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Yeah, it was xephyr(Mark) I was talking about. I believe he had a b-spec built 2.5 but had problems with it.
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Old 05-03-2003, 03:06 AM   #28
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mark's "built" 2.5 never happened. i don't think i've ever known a person to have one work right. but why do you need one if this block can handle so much boost? just crank up the boost (w/fuel of course).
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Old 05-03-2003, 05:09 PM   #29
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I talked to xephyr, his name is Alan. He is saying 450 HP (I think he is referring to crank) with the EJ22-t at 30 psi. It is running a "large" turbo w/an air to water IC. Sounds pretty potent to me. Also, this is on the stock internals of the engine, pretty amazing. I am beginning to think that if a motor can make this much power then the rods must be something special, not just a normal cast job.

This EJ22-T really seems to be calling my name. I just feel like to run that much boost it would be necessary to uprade the internals. It doesn't seem right that a stock Subaru block can take 30 psi, with no mods. Whey the hell isn't everyone and their brother swapping this engine?


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Old 05-03-2003, 05:44 PM   #30
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I fell completly safe running mine at 10psi all day long with stock internals and no management except a RRFPR.
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Old 05-03-2003, 05:58 PM   #31
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Well thats 10 psi, I'm talking about 30 psi. I understand you didn't have any engine management, but 10 psi isn't that much for that block, you think?

How much wiring is involved with the swap, or it must a matter of putting the EJ25 sensors on the EJ22?

HOK, what kind of EM are you running?

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Old 05-03-2003, 06:44 PM   #32
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keep it a little bit on the DL gram. its our little secret. also this block isn't as readily available as some others.

20psi and reliable
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Old 05-03-2003, 08:09 PM   #33
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I copy that....


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Old 05-03-2003, 11:23 PM   #34
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I think its a good kept secret... thats why i swapped my EJ25 block for it.. I heard byron used factory internals at first then used higher forged units. I totally belive the 30psi number... but with many machinery its the number of stresses... I don't know how long it will last... I've ran 22psi on my car once... but that is on a small turbo. I hear that they are getting full boost by 4k tho. If this thing lasts 5 laps on a track with a commited driveri doubt the engine will last. spurts and street driving... i think its an awesome beast... I think the PDM guys and xephyr are doing a great thing. truely research and development.

Graham, I was running 440 injectors using a S-AFC. stock everything else...
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Old 05-04-2003, 01:56 AM   #35
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How much HP do you think you are making running 20 psi?


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Old 05-04-2003, 03:42 AM   #36
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320 est. at crank. w/ nismo 555cc injectors.
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Old 05-05-2003, 01:02 AM   #37
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Hello everyone. I'm posting here now to clarify a few things about the Turbo Legacy shortblock formula, and my car. For starters, I have hesitated to post here for a long time for two reasons. First, previous attempts at pursuing dialog on this subject regarding my experiences and theories with this topic in the past have often been met with disbelief and crtiticsm. Second, after realizing the vast successess with the Turbo Legacy engine formula, and also recognizing the dramatic simplicity of its implementation, I was very fearful of people duplicating my successess and therefore eliminating my elite position of having a very potent turbo car. But alas, the secret is out, and it seems time to shed some light on this mysterious topic.

As a side note, I must include that people in Europe and Australia discovered the T.Legacy recipe long before I did. At this point, much of the foreign enthusiasts have progressed to exploring the further capabilities of a built T.Legacy block. One notable individual who sticks out is a person who goes by the name "PLAYER". He seems to be a common poster on the MRT forums, and the Scoobynet forums. He occasionaly chimes in on this board, only to ridicule us on our apparent inability to recognize the true value of the T.Legacy block.

So, here is a list of pertinent observations:

1. My name is Mark Ramirez, not Alan. PDM turbos has pictures of my engine bay on their website, although the text description of what is actually in my car is very inaccurate. 90% of the work on my car has been done by me in my own shop. PDM has been a great help in a lot of the work (i.e. welding and tube bending), but as far as the engine goes, they simply provided technical advice for assembly.

2. Yes, I previously tried a built 2.5 engine from B-Spec. It didn't work. All in all, I went through 6 blown 2.5 motors before I gave up on that pursuit. Details of these endeavors have been discussed on this board in the past, and the problems ran the gamut from pistons, bearings, to gasket issues. Ultimately, it is my conclusion that the common failure between all the blocks invloves the weakness of the block itself, due to it's open deck nature. Basically, in high boost situations, open deck 2.5 blocks are too weak.

3. Yes I run a stock 2.2 T.Legacy on ALOT of boost. I have so far accumualted over 30,000 miles on a T.Legacy block, running over 20 psi of boost the whole time . The only engine failure involved a separate T.Legacy engine experiment I was pursuing for a short time, but I'll get to that later. Currently I drive every day to work on 23-24 psi, and have been doing so for at least the past 2 years. Yes, I have tried 30 psi, but for very short bursts. The highest sustained boost levels I have run is 26-27 psi. The only reason I don't do this now, is because of the efficiency range of my turbo, and operating at that level is bad for the turbo, and short on ultimate gains until I change turbos. Furthermore, realise that there is a 2-3 psi difference in atmospheric pressure between here (Colorado mountains) and sea level. So therefore my 27-28 psi could actually be equivalent to 24-25 psi at sea level.

4. The T.Legacy engine failure experiment I refer to invloved my attempt to find out what the limits of the engine were. It started with a T.Leg engine with 150,000 miles from the junkyard. First, I ran it for weeks at 27-30 psi. Second, I over-revved it to 11,000 rpm twice, by shifting from 2nd gear redlined, to first (by the way, this shift can only be done with a dogbox). After having no failures, I finally took it to Second Creek Raceway. This track is a 1.7 mile circuit track, with hills, chicanes, all kinds of turns, and so forth. I drove the piss out of it for 20 laps straight (over twenty minutes straight), shifting at 9000 rpm, heating the hell out of it, and pummeling it with tons of boost. Eventually, I spun the number 2 rod bearing. After tearing down the engine, inspection of the engine revealed that other than the bearing, the rest of the engine was in perfect shape. Furthermore, the failed rod bearing was more than likely caused by damage sustained from the 11000 rpm incidents.

5. My compression ratio is very low, which explains the durability of my setup. Using DOHC heads, the T.Legacy headgasket and block, my compression ratio is a little over 7.5:1. Yes my bottom end suffers, but with my setup, my top end definitely makes up for it. Furthermore, please realize the Rigoli's also use 7.5:1 compression on their cars in Australia. The 2000 2.2L headgasket is a thinner, phase 2 type headgasket, and would give me a compression ratio of 8:1, and experimenting with this approach is something which I am considering.

6. Previous discussions regarding Byron's experiences at B-Spec in the past (years ago), revealed high boost with a stock block at sea level will eventually bend a rod. From what I can gather, running 27+ psi at sea level will most ultimately bend a rod. On his built 2.2, he uses stock head studs, and the only problem he was having was blowing random headgaskets when over 30 psi. He did this intentionally, so that his weakpoint was at the headgasket, and not something else more expensive. Realize he is running a 8.5:1 comp ratio.

7. The T.Leg short block is made of a different aluminum than all the other open deck blocks. It is a sandcasted "medium pressure diecast aluminum crankcase...utilized to secure the higher rigidity necessary with a closed deck." (SAE technical document #890471). The open deck block "is made of high pressure die cast aluminum". High pressure casting unfortunately forces tiny little bubbles into the aluminum as it cools down, but as whole is cheaper to process by Subaru. In short, THE T.LEGACY BLOCK IS DENSER, MORE RIGID AND STRONGER THAN OPEN DECK BLOCKS. IT IS ALSO SIGNIFICANTLY MORE EXPENSIVE TO PRODUCE BY SUBARU. On the downside, because of its higher density, it retains more heat and requires more attention to cooling.

8. The T.Legacy blocks REQUIRES THE T.LEGACY OIL PUMP. THIS OIL PUMP IS DIFFERENT THAN OTHER PUMPS. IT IS A MUCH HIGHER PRESSURE, HIGHER FLOW PUMP, AND IS NECESSARY FOR THE ADDED OIL DEMAND OF THE PISTON OIL SQUIRTERS AND TURBO. DO NOT QUESTION THIS STATEMENT, BECAUSE YOU'LL BE WASTING YOUR TIME.

9. I don't know if the Turbo legacy water pump/thermostat is different, but I use it anyway.

10. My turbo is a one of a kind custom ball bearing turbo built by Turbo Engineering Corp in Golden, CO . The easiest way to describe it is that it has the T04S .74 A/R compressor of the Garret GT35R, with the .86 A/R turbine of the Garret GT28/35R. Both wheels are the more efficient ballistic concepts series axial vane wheels. It starts boosting at 2700 rpm, reaches 25 psi at 36-3700 rpm, and holds it to 8000 rpm.

11. I rev my engine to 7500-8000 rpm every day.

12. The rods are a forged steel design. Yes they are very good. No, they aren't different than other rods.

13. Pistons are different from normal. They are a "thermalflow type used to stand the high heat load at full throttle." Basically they are better than cast pistons, but not quite as good as a truly forged piston. Also, they are moly-coated pistons. THEY ARE VERY GOOD PISTONS FOR THE MONEY.

14. Yes, my car is ridiculously fast. It will break all 4 tires loose (225/50-16) in two gears. I will not tell you what the 1/4 mile time is, so don't ask. If you want to witness it, you are welcome to a joyride. I personally challenge anyone to race (in good spirits of course) at Second Creek Raceway, with the exception of Cobb's Cone Basher. That car has some ridiculously serious traction advantages.

15. Yes, the T.legacy is the same short block as the infamous 22B impreza. Please don't argue with me on this. I am right. I am positive. End of story.

16. The T. Legacy engine formula by itself will not create a monster by itself. PROPER TUNING, WELL BALANCED COMPONENTS, AND PROPER DESIGN ARE ALSO REQUIRED. THERE ARE OTHER THINGS NOT METIONED HERE REQUIRED IN THE FORMULA. Unfortunately, I am too tired to list all of them, and need to reserve some of the secrets to myself. I cannot emphasize the importance of proper tuning. I have seen "bulletproof" $10000 engines self destruct from bad tuning. Please realize my car NEVER DETONATES, NEVER HAS HIGH EGTS, NEVER EXPERIENCES EXCESSIVE BACKPRESSURE, RUNS A 11-12:1 AFR, ETC. These are the reasons the Turbo Legacy Formula works for me.
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Old 05-05-2003, 03:15 AM   #38
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17. therefore lowly newbs, bow to the mighty mark (aka alan) and take his words of wisdom as gold. tried and tested in the furnace of time, proved by the shock and awe response of those who have experienced his god-like power of his subaru.
AMEN
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Old 05-05-2003, 05:22 AM   #39
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I don’t know if you remember me xephyr but I had the 2.2 block for quite awhile and learned about the strengths of the block a long time ago.. simply did not have the cash to make is a monster. I really glad you have. Because I don’t look such a fool. If you don’t remember I was one of the only to back you way back when http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...threadid=99965 . hahahaha just kidding.


But I have a few questions. I’ve run 20 psi a lot on this block and I am convinced that low compression and high boost is the way to go with turbos, I think that this is one of the reasons that reliability is strong for the block. But how are you dealing with the heads? I’ve always been curious of the heads, they can’t be stock? Also what engine mgmt do you use?

Last edited by HOK; 05-05-2003 at 08:08 AM.
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Old 05-05-2003, 10:16 AM   #40
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Good God, incredible response xephyr.

Questions:

1) When you say that you rev your car to 8000 RPM, what kind of cam are you utilizing in the DOHC heads? Obviously the stock cam is sufficient to rev this high.

2) What kind of engine management are you currently running?

3) When you say the pistons are forged steel and that they aren't better than other rods, what are you comparing them to? Stock EJ25 rods or aftermarket units such Pauter?

4) What kind of headgasker are you currently running on your block?

5) The block that you currently have in your car, did you buy it new from Subaru or is it a junkyard unit?

6) Do you anything about internals being different from year to year on the EJ22-T?

Thanks for all your input, it is much appreciated.

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Old 05-05-2003, 04:20 PM   #41
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SOA says there's 6 of the short blocks in the USA right now. I think I'll buy another one seems how the secret is out.


Edit: This was sarcasm as there was never a shortage so to speak.

Last edited by todnar; 04-15-2004 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 05-05-2003, 05:42 PM   #42
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hehehe... ahh yes it's looks the secret is out. HOK, what's up, which head gaskets are you running? I have both the EJ25 and EJ22T gaskets, but I haven't decided which to run. If what xephyr says is true (which I don't doubt) 20 psi sounds right for me. Damn, I can't wait for my project to get done!
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Old 05-05-2003, 09:02 PM   #43
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HOK - It's nice to come back to this board and run into a familiar name from back in the day. Its strange to see a person with a lower member number than mine!! I see you remember the old post where my question ended up turning into a witch trial. I forgot to tell you thanks for the support back then. You were one of the few people who saw the logic in what I was doing.

Anyways, you are correct in assuming the heads aren't stock. They EXTREMELY ported and polished, aftermarket valves, three angle valve job, dual valve springs, and titanium retainers. At one point I had bigger cams. They were from the same place that does Cobb's cams. Those cams aren't in the heads now because they disintegrated. Yes, you heard that right. The welds on the lobes started eroding off after several months, and one of the lobes actually chipped and popped a shim out and caused catastrophic damage to the head. It took a long time to fix that mess. I concluded the welded cams might not have been hard enough to withstand my super stiff valve springs.

While I was repairing those heads, I tried a set of stock heads with stock cams, and was pleasantly surprised. THE STOCK HEADS WORK VERY WELL. Don't get me wrong, there are noticable differences, but not how you would think. With the stock heads, there is a significantly crisper and responsive low and mid range. With the ported heads there is a MUCH better top end (after 5000 rpm), but the mid range suffers, and the low end response really suffers.

With the ported heads and stock cams, I hardly noticed a difference without the bigger cams. After you get to a certain HP level, it becomes difficult to distinguish an extra 10-15 HP. It did seem however that the stock cams gave me a more tolerable low end with the ported heads.

Currently, I'm using the ported heads(mostly because I already have them) with the stock cams. If I had to do it over again, I would have left the heads alone, with the exception of upgrading to stiffer valve springs (valve float occurs around 6500-7000 with high boost).

As far as engine management, I'm using the LINK Plus. It works really well for me, although it seems some people can't get it to work for them.

Graham -
1.I'm using the stock cam. The rev range has more to do with the turbo size than cams. Cam selection appears more critical with NA engines. On an older smaller turbo, I noticed my revs maxed out around 6500-7000. I went to the bigger cams and ported heads to fix that problem, and ended up with minimal gains. However, with the bigger turbo, my rev range jumped right up to 8000.

2. I'm using a Link Plus.

3. The rods are the same quality as all the other Phase I rods of that older era. The only better genuine Subaru rods can be found in some of the newer Phase 2 Sti engines. They have a thicker cross-sectional area, and may also use different forgings of steel. They are not nearly as strong as a Pauter rod (which is forged chromoly instead of forged steel), but as you can see sometimes a rod of that strength isn't entirely necessary. The only rod upgrade I would even consider would be to titanium rods, which could facilitate a much higher safe rpm range because of the significant lighter weight (possibly 10000?). Unfortunately, I'm still trying to find an outfit willing to do small quantities of titanium rods at a reasonable price.

4. I'm using the Turbo Legacy head gasket. The only other option is the 2000 2.2 L phase 2 headgasket, which is thinner, and would up the compression ratio.

5. I'm using a brand new block.

6. The internals of all the T.Leg blocks are the same, year to year.

Last edited by xephyr; 05-05-2003 at 09:09 PM.
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Old 05-05-2003, 10:01 PM   #44
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Thanks once again.

About the cam, I still don't understand how you rev that high with the stock unit? I know that the cam on the EJ25 causes a severe drop off of power around 5500 RPM. Even the guys with the bigger turbos seem to run into this problem on the EJ25, does it make that large of a difference when using the EJ22-T?

So basically the information you have found to be correct is the revving stock heads and cams with titanuim valve springs to upwards of 8000 RPM is safe, and reliable?



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Old 05-05-2003, 10:33 PM   #45
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Wow... interesting... the head work wasn't as much as i thought it would be... you just need to let the air in huh? Actually i've never liked welded cams... its just not right... its almost like putting silly puddy on a pencil. I know many people have had great success with this, but i've seen aftermarket cams in Japan that are not welds but are totally application specific, NICE. But are very costly because of R&D. By the way did you just use stronger springs, how about the valves, are they stock? I don't know how much to ask, since i know you want to keep it on the low down... but i don't think anyone can just copy your setup... it doesn't always work out even if people have exact same setups. So urrr if your going for titanium rods put me down for a set! hehe

Btw did you get my PM?

Seven i used the EJ25 gaskets.
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Old 05-05-2003, 10:52 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by Graham
Thanks once again.

About the cam, I still don't understand how you rev that high with the stock unit? I know that the cam on the EJ25 causes a severe drop off of power around 5500 RPM. Even the guys with the bigger turbos seem to run into this problem on the EJ25, does it make that large of a difference when using the EJ22-T?
Don't forget that a cam desigend for a N/A 2.5L engine will breath a lot better up top in a FI Smaller (e.g. 2.2L) engine. That's why it holds power longer.
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Old 05-06-2003, 10:26 AM   #47
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Don't get me wrong, a bigger cam will give you more top end. But a bigger turbo will give you ALOT more top end. Some of those guys with "big" turbos, don't really have big turbos. The housing might appear large, but the wheels inside are actually suited for mid range power. Also remember that the Rigoli's (I really hate to keep referring to these guys) built a handful of 10 second cars years ago using stock cams/heads. They overcame top end issues by using a gigantic turbo (T60 series). I have seen 500+ HP Nissan 300ZX's put in a set of bigger cams, and gain 30 hp near the top end, but loose power down low. But at 500+ hp, you don't even notice 30 hp.

On a side note, if you really want new cams, and you have the 98 RS style DOHC heads, I believe you can use aftermarket cams available for the foreign WRX V.3 heads. These cams are readily available from JUN in Japan, and Piper Cams in England, and also Kent Cams in England. There is a handful of other manufacturers but I can't remember them right now. I believe the WRX V.3 heads are the same casting as our old style DOHC heads.

Last edited by xephyr; 11-21-2003 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 05-27-2003, 11:09 PM   #48
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after killing my basically stock USDM WRX engine, I'm looking into this swap. Does anyone have any experience with this block and WRX heads? are there any "surprises" when trying to put this together? Any idea what the compression ratio will be with this setup? I don't want to run a huge turbo or huge boost (I want to run a vf30)
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Old 05-27-2003, 11:36 PM   #49
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I recall someone stating that using the WRX heads actaully raises compression, but I'm not sure. I actually just finished swapping one of those bad boys in my 2.5RS and it was pretty straight forward. The only thing I've noticed so far is that there are less bolts to the tranny on a EJ22T and my starter seems really loud now too. I think that's because one of the bolts used on the starter goes into the tranny and the block which can't happen with the EJ22T since there's no hole.
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Old 05-28-2003, 09:59 PM   #50
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I hate to bug you guys with your crazy machines with my wimpy little problems... But you all seem to know what your talking about! I have a legacy turbo (US) with a 94 WRX EJ20G (closed deck block) so apparently I'm crazy...doing the opposite of all you guys! But I've always been contrary. Anyways. I need to find valve cover gaskets (actually, just one) for my EJ20G. I can't seem to find them in this country, but some people think that the 96 EJ25 DOHC valve cover gaskets would work on my engine. Can anyone second this? Or give me a source for 94 wrx gaskets? On a vaguely related note, does anyone have any easy fixes for a busted hydraulic lifter? My understanding is that small crap, a piece of silicon from a seal, whatever, gets in the oil ports on the valve actuators, and clogs it, and they collapse, and then TAP TAP TAP TAP. It happened on my impreza, and I had them pull the valvetrain out and clean it with brake cleaner, worked like a charm. But I would really love to find an engine flush/cleaner/treatment that would fix this without opening up the valve covers. Maybe those engine flush machines the dealer always rips people off with? Any ideas? I'm desperate
Thanks Much
Micum
91 Legacy Turbo Sport
94 JDM WRX EJ20G swap - closed deck block
ACT Street Clutch, KYB GR2's, MRT Alloy IC pipe
93 Impreza L AWD winter beater
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