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Old 06-13-2008, 11:19 PM   #1
x01011000x
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Default LA area E-85 tune

I am very seriously considering a switch to E-85 and wanted to know if anyone had suggestions for a tuner that has experience with E-85 tunes. Open Source or AP 1 is what I gots now. I was looking for the LA area but don't mind a short drive.
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Old 06-13-2008, 11:29 PM   #2
grippy monkey
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are there any other mods needed to make the switch? new lines, seals and such?
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Old 06-14-2008, 12:08 AM   #3
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From what I understand for a %100 E-85 switch: fuel pump (maybe), larger injectors and a tune.
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Old 06-14-2008, 12:16 AM   #4
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sounds like a plan....

now to find place with E85... what's the cost like on e85... maybe I'm not looking but I don't see any pumps around me with it??!
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Old 06-14-2008, 12:56 AM   #5
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Order a 50 gal. drum..not very many dealers in socal

http://e85vehicles.com/e85-california.htm



I believe tim bailey can tune for it but dont quote me on it
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Old 06-14-2008, 05:26 AM   #6
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Quote:
are there any other mods needed to make the switch? new lines, seals and such?
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341

Quote:
I am very seriously considering a switch to E-85 and wanted to know if anyone had suggestions for a tuner that has experience with E-85 tunes. Open Source or AP 1 is what I gots now. I was looking for the LA area but don't mind a short drive.
You might find someone you recognize as local in the E85 FAQ thread. There are several folks in the thread that do tuning either open source or at their shop. Given the lack of availability in Ca right now, I do not recall a local tuner.

Hopefully your supply availability will improve soon. We are adding almost 1000 stations a year nation wide right now.

Larry
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Old 06-14-2008, 08:56 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod View Post
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341
Hopefully your supply availability will improve soon. We are adding almost 1000 stations a year nation wide right now.
Except for using as a performance fuel, e85 is a joke. Being that it is 30% less effective at making power, you end up spending more per mile than premium 91 octane.
http://www.fuelgaugereport.com/
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Old 06-14-2008, 10:11 PM   #8
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Except for using as a performance fuel, e85 is a joke. Being that it is 30% less effective at making power, you end up spending more per mile than premium 91 octane.
http://www.fuelgaugereport.com/
It is also cheaper per mile in many areas, it saves me $750 a year in fuel costs.
It makes consistently more power so you are totally wrong!

E85 BTU adjusted price is a public relations scam to deceive the gullible public and to protect big oils interests. It has been common knowledge for 10 years that the entire concept is bogus but the public relations morons keep trotting it out because they are technologically illiterate.E85 BTU adjusted price is one of the most idiotic concepts every foisted on the consumer, you can take it as a sign that any web page that pushes that concept is either incompetent or in big oils pocket. Fuel economy does not track with fuel energy per gallon it tracks with engine efficiency. Since E85 is a superior fuel it produces more useful work per BTU of available fuel energy.

These are the numbers from my first E85 conversion on the stock turbo. As you can see there is very little lost in miles per gallon and a definite gain in absolute fuel efficiency (ie miles/BTU). In states where the public is getting a fair price for E85 (ie not getting gouged) it saves the driver a considerable amount of money.

Old setup stock turbo -
gasoline milage Gasoline 125,000 Btu/ gallon / 24mpg = 5208 BTU/mile
My old setup, @ 92% of gasoline milage or 22 mpg
E85 90,500 BTU/gallon/22 = 4114 BTU/mile
E85 uses 78% of fuel energy to travel a mile compared to gasoline.

Now it the OEM manufactures would just produce a FFV that is half as efficient as back yard tuners can produce in a couple hours, we could actually get some where with it.

Larry
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Old 06-15-2008, 06:03 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geargrinder View Post
Except for using as a performance fuel, e85 is a joke. Being that it is 30% less effective at making power, you end up spending more per mile than premium 91 octane.
http://www.fuelgaugereport.com/
I assumed a 30% loss in MPG and put numbers into an excel sheet to calculate cost per month for me. I would save $40 a month on fuel as of prices on Friday and go the same amount of miles. So cheaper (right now) per mile, more power with a tune, buying local from US fuel and from what I understand lower emissions. I am having trouble seeing very many downsides

Cross country trips may be an issue, but I am assuming I can just load a different map if I have to fill up with 91 sometime.


Now I just need to dig deeper into hotrod's thread and see if any local peeps posted tuning stuff
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Old 06-15-2008, 08:58 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by x01011000x View Post
I assumed a 30% loss in MPG and put numbers into an excel sheet to calculate cost per month for me. I would save $40 a month on fuel as of prices on Friday and go the same amount of miles. So cheaper (right now) per mile, more power with a tune, buying local from US fuel and from what I understand lower emissions. I am having trouble seeing very many downsides

Cross country trips may be an issue, but I am assuming I can just load a different map if I have to fill up with 91 sometime.


Now I just need to dig deeper into hotrod's thread and see if any local peeps posted tuning stuff
First off it's still more money per mile to run e85. Also (for hotrod), there wouldn't even be this discussion of mpg's if there wasn't an issue with e85 being less efficient at making power, 25/30%. That's why you have to run such massive injectors. Once again the only thing e85 is good for is a high octane rating. 100+ octane. Remember octane is not power.

Regular Mid Premium Diesel E85 **E85 MPG/BTU adjusted price
Current Avg. $4.077 $4.329 $4.484 $4.797 $3.560 $4.685

**The BTU-adjusted price of E-85 is the nationwide average price of E-85 adjusted to reflect the lower energy content as expressed in British Thermal Units - and hence miles per gallon - available in a gallon of E-85 as compared to the same volume of conventional gasoline. The BTU-adjusted price calculated by OPIS and AAA is not an actual retail average price paid by consumers. It is calculated and displayed as part of AAA's Fuel Gauge Report because according to the Energy Information Administration E-85 delivers approximately 25 percent fewer BTUs by volume than conventional gasoline. Because "flexible fuel" vehicles can operate on conventional fuel and E-85,the BTU-adjusted price of E-85 is essential to understanding the cost implications of each fuel choice for consumers.
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Old 06-15-2008, 12:03 PM   #11
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Also, studies show e85 is not better for the enviornment.
"ScienceDaily (Apr. 18, 2007) Ethanol is widely touted as an eco-friendly, clean-burning fuel. But if every vehicle in the United States ran on fuel made primarily from ethanol instead of pure gasoline, the number of respiratory-related deaths and hospitalizations likely would increase, according to a new study by Stanford University atmospheric scientist Mark Z. Jacobson. His findings are published in the April 18 online edition of the journal Environmental Science & Technology (ES&T)."
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0418072616.htm

Not to mention the fertilizers and pesticides, and the amount of fresh water that is need to produce this product. For the most part E85 is a mistake. It is not the solution to the fuel crisis.

Anyway, Scott Barber (who tunes Evo's at Harmonmotive), tunes for e85. < to answer the OP. lol
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Old 06-15-2008, 02:27 PM   #12
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First off it's still more money per mile to run e85. Also (for hotrod), there wouldn't even be this discussion of mpg's if there wasn't an issue with e85 being less efficient at making power, 25/30%. That's why you have to run such massive injectors. Once again the only thing e85 is good for is a high octane rating. 100+ octane. Remember octane is not power.

Regular Mid Premium Diesel E85 **E85 MPG/BTU adjusted price
Current Avg. $4.077 $4.329 $4.484 $4.797 $3.560 $4.685

**The BTU-adjusted price of E-85 is the nationwide average price of E-85 adjusted to reflect the lower energy content as expressed in British Thermal Units - and hence miles per gallon - available in a gallon of E-85 as compared to the same volume of conventional gasoline. The BTU-adjusted price calculated by OPIS and AAA is not an actual retail average price paid by consumers. It is calculated and displayed as part of AAA's Fuel Gauge Report because according to the Energy Information Administration E-85 delivers approximately 25 percent fewer BTUs by volume than conventional gasoline. Because "flexible fuel" vehicles can operate on conventional fuel and E-85,the BTU-adjusted price of E-85 is essential to understanding the cost implications of each fuel choice for consumers.
Did you not read my above post or simply incapable of understanding it?

My current fuel cost for E85 is $2.99/gallon, I get about 19 mpg in daily driving on it right now. That means it costs me 15.7 cents a mile to use E85. If I used pump premium, it would cost me $4.15 a gallon and I would get 22 mpg on gasoline. That means it would cost me 18.86 cents a mile.

Gasoline costs me 20% more per mile than E85!

As you mentioned that BTU adjusted price is a computed value that has nothing at all to do with E85's true cost to the consumer or its efficiency, it is a derived number based on false assumptions.

The major false assumption is in this statement:
Quote:
The BTU-adjusted price of E-85 is the nationwide average price of E-85 adjusted to reflect the lower energy content as expressed in British Thermal Units - and hence miles per gallon - available in a gallon of E-85 as compared to the same volume of conventional gasoline.
The fuel mileage per gallon available from a fuel is not tightly tied to its energy content per gallon. It is false to assume so, and since this is widely known in the community, it is clearly an attempt to misinform the public with false information. Fuel mileage is much more closely tied to engine efficiency and how well it makes constructive use of the available energy in the fuel. Since E85 has several characteristics that make it a more efficient fuel than gasoline you get more useful work out of a given amount of available fuel energy using E85 than you can on gasoline. In optimized engines fuel ethanol can achieve thermal efficiencies of 42% compared to about 30% which it typical of a well designed gasoline engine you see on the streets today.

Again another of your statements clearly show you have no clue about this issue.
Quote:
there wouldn't even be this discussion of mpg's if there wasn't an issue with e85 being less efficient at making power, 25/30%.
E85 and fuel ethanol actually have higher specific energy than gasoline, and can produce significantly more power for a given amount of air taken into the engine. In proper fuel air mixtures E85 is capable of increasing an engines power output from 5% to about 27% over what it could produce on pump gas with no other mechanical changes. You are confusing available energy content per unit volume of fuel with total power produced by the engine. That again is another false assumption! Total available power from a fuel is determined by how much fuel you can burn with a given amount of intake air. In the case of E85 at WOT max power fuel air mixtures E85 blows gasoline away completely. Likewise at light throttle cruise, you can run E85 at much leaner mixtures without misfire due to its wider flammability limits, and still have normal torque for passing and accelerating up hills because the fuel allows the engine to accept load at lighter throttle settings than you can get away with on gasoline. Net result is the driver needs less throttle and less fuel to cruise at a given highway speed, and he spends less time at higher throttle settings to pass or pull hills, resulting in significantly better fuel mileage than the raw BTU content of the fuel would lead you to believe.


You might want to look at real world E85 prices in comparison to regular gasoline and you will see in many areas of the country the price spread is large enough that E85 users are saving hundreds of dollars a year on fuel.

http://www.e85prices.com/

Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 06-15-2008 at 08:32 PM.
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:10 PM   #13
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I realize it's not Subarus but RRE does E85 tunes for EVOs and they have a quite a bit of real world data in their E85 Stages thread...

http://www.socalevo.net/forum/index.php?topic=54164.0
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Old 06-18-2008, 12:46 AM   #14
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Sweet, thanks for the link JC.

Greargrinder, thanks for the heads up on the tuner.
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Old 06-18-2008, 03:31 AM   #15
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my 2008 STi on 91 = 308bhp
2008 STi running the E85 setup = ???bhp?
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Old 06-18-2008, 05:29 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by geargrinder View Post
Anyway, Scott Barber (who tunes Evo's at Harmonmotive), tunes for e85. < to answer the OP. lol
ahh...good old scott got the job!

he tuned my Evo 9 and it was a beast
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Old 06-18-2008, 09:43 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by fusionchicken View Post
ahh...good old scott got the job!

he tuned my Evo 9 and it was a beast
Yes, he tuned my IX as well, gobs of power, smooth, and no issues. Good guy too.
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