Lets talk about brakes

[JaMa]

OK, this board is full of people with ridiculous, ludicrous, fabulous amounts of horsepower on their WRX's - but I have searched and searched and there is VERY LITTLE information on brakes. I would guess at about 20,000 miles we will hear about a lot of wrecked 400hp WRX's

Anyway, my question is this: who has upgraded their WRX brakes on this board, how much did it cost you, and do you think it was worth it. I am considering a full kit, perhaps from AP racing (6 pot 330mm kit is incredible) but I dont want to install such a monster before I know if the $2000 or so I will have to spend on it will be worth the money.

Thanks in advance, brake gurus....

JaMa

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[Tangmere]

Unless your planning on doing track days, no, its not worth the money. The advantage to a bigger set over stock is their resistance to fade. Upgrade to a set of decent pads and SS lines (and grippy tires) That's more cost efficient. Don't believe me? Look at any of the tuner cars reviewed in the mags, loads of coin dropped on the latest and the biggest brakes. Hardly a negligible improvement over stock.

Mark

[Concillian]

In my quest for info about brakes, one of the sites said something about the AP 6 pot kit thatwent something like:

You'll need 17 racing slicks before you really need these brakes.

Check out the Brmbo and Prodrive 4 pot kits before you go that route, or the Scoobysport GroupN+ kit with Subaru 4 pots

GTBGUY was working with KVR to get a set of skinny 4 pots that would clear the 16x6.5 wheels on the WRX, I found that post again yesterday in searching, his kit is due out in spring.

Brakes are expensive. Companies over-engineer brakes because 1 failure and the company is TOAST, that overengineering, coupled with the complexity of calipers, mean that good brake kits cost.

There are lots of brake options available.

http://www.rallyperformance.com Has the brembo and Scoobysport kit
http://www.isrperformance.com/brakes.html Has the Stoptech kit

That should at least get you started. Right now I'm going with better pads and SS brake lines (BEFORE bolting on power mods) to see how the KVR kit looks. Depending on what's up I may do Subaru 4 pots or the KVR kit, the other stuff just seems too much for what I'm after.

[ImprezaWRXDriver]

StopTech Big Brake kit on the front.
Really large rotor and calipers along with decent pads and stainless steel brake lines.

[dwx]

Brakes are just so damn expensive. I was looking at the AP kit at rallyperformance but am I ever going to need anything like that? Sure it'd be nice to have them on a track day to help eliminate brake fade, but you have to ask yourself if it's really worth spending $2k+ on them. SS Lines/Pads/Fluid aren't all that expensive and will do a decent job of improving braking. I actually purchased the Subaru 4-pots and will be installing them with new lines and fluid whenever I get some winter wheels that will clear them (soon). The pagid grpN+ kit with the 4-pots that rallyperformance (scoobysport) sells for < $1k is a decent deal. That's with subaru 4-pots/rotors/pads/ss lines/fluid. But you need the bigger wheels to clear the 4-pots.

[Concillian]

That kit looks nice, but my only concern is that the pagid rotors are supposedly exclusive to scoobysport, and I'm wondering how much replacements will be.

When I get closer to making a brake decision (after GTBGUY is ready with his kit) I was planning on e-mailing them and asking them about how much replacement rotors and pads are by themselves and whether or not the GroupN+ kit rotors are cryoed. when you consider that pads, rotors, lines and fluid are nearly $700 just for the kit, you realize that either the pads or those rotors HAVE to cost mucho.

They list the lines for $120, I can't see fluid costing more than $30, which leaves $540 for pads and rotors? Ouch. That means either the rotor are really expensive (~$200 each) or pads are really expensive ($200+ for the set) or some combination of both.

When you consider that pads like that rarely last more than 15-20k miles, you have to think about the ongoing cost of these kinds of upgrades.

[Tuning Factory Inc.]

Best values out there is the Prodrive or the Stop Tech. Both at $1695. I can tell you the stock brakes are just WAY too small once you have 300 HP. Mine shudder and shake every time I get off the highway after a spirited drive.

[mav1c]

Something to think about is that you don't HAVE to get Pagid rotors or pads when it comes time to replace. There are a lot of pads that fit the 4-pots. Mintex, Porterfield, Endless, to name a few. The best deal you're going to get is the 4-Pot set-up from Subaruparts.com. I think they have it for like $750. For another $100-$150 you can get the rotors cryoed and they should last a LONG time.

If you're planning on doing ANY track days, at least upgrade the pads and fluid, or at least get pads specifically for the track. Just put them on the day before. If you're planning on doing more that 2 or 3 track days a year, the extra money you'll spend on bigger calipers and rotors, is well worth it. If you're doing a lot of track days, the Stoptech, or Prodrive kit is definitely something to look at. With the bigger rotors, you will get a little better braking because of the adding leverage that bigger rotors provide. And remember, if they only lessen your 60-0 braking distance 5 feet, that's 5 more feet you'll have to avoid an accident, which can make a HUGE difference. I think too many people skimp on brakes and spend all there time and money on trying to make the car faster, when it should be the other way around.

Personally, I have the subaru 4-pots, with cryoed, slotted rotors, Legacy turbo vented rear discs and calipers (cryo'ed and slotted also), stainless lines, Mintex 1155 pads all around, ATE Super Blue fluid, and the single stage brake booster and master cylinder. You can REALLY feel, and experience, the increased braking power, and fade at the track is pretty much non-existant. Also adds a lot of confidence on the street. When I drive my fiance's 97 Jetta, she always says, "Slow down, we're not in your car."

My $.02

[JaMa]

Originally posted by god
Best values out there is the Prodrive or the Stop Tech. Both at $1695. I can tell you the stock brakes are just WAY too small once you have 300 HP. Mine shudder and shake every time I get off the highway after a spirited drive.

Uh, no doubt... mine sound downright ill after I get on the boost for a bit and you can tell by looking my pads are nearly shot, especially in the front - and my car only has 10,000 miles on it. It kind of makes you wonder why the rest of the world got the 4 pot front calipers and we did not - do they need to stop and we dont? Very strange.

Anyway, I am going with the Stoptech front kit, new lines and fluid, and a new set of Mintex pads for the rear. That should be enough to stop me for a while.

Thanks for the good info everyone.

JaMa

[dwx]

Originally posted by mav1c
Something to think about is that you don't HAVE to get Pagid rotors or pads when it comes time to replace. There are a lot of pads that fit the 4-pots. Mintex, Porterfield, Endless, to name a few. The best deal you're going to get is the 4-Pot set-up from Subaruparts.com. I think they have it for like $750.

My $.02

Actually the 4-pots can be had from subaruwrxparts.com (Exeter Subaru) for $580. I think they were <$600 shipped (they are heavy) and they had them to me in like 3 days.

[subysouth]

Obviously the biggest parts of stopping ability are tire traction and a set of brakes that can dependably approach lockup. The dreaded fade(diminishing of braking ability) we are talking about is caused mainly by boiling of the brake fluid in the lines which is of course caused by heat. Heat is increased directly in relation to speed removed by the brakes and the weight of the vehicle.

Horsepower really has nothing to do with required braking unless you are regularly bringing your car down from significanly elevated speeds. Most of us spend quite a bit of money making only incremental increases in quarter mile speeds. Drag guys wont need the bigger brakes nor will regular street users. The only guys who are really going to need upgrade the entire brake system are the track guys, autoxers, etc. who repeatedly apply the brakes at already elevated temps.

So based on these principles, better fluid is imperative for starters. A larger(more mass) rotor will dissipate heat better assuming all other things are equal. A larger diameter rotor does also increase braking force and spread the heat out over a larger area. Pads will wear better under track conditions and increase braking force which will help counter fade.

Along with rotor heat warpage, many times brake shudder can be caused by pad material being deposited on the rotor. You can do this by bringing th car to a stop and leaving the brakes applied on the hot rotor. This is a habit that should be broken at all costs.

Further take a lesson from the racers, use the manual transmission to help brake the car. My .02

94 Legacy Wagon - 2002 WRX stock front brakes, stock rear discs, Cobb ss lines, ATE Super Blue fluid.

[Concillian]

Originally posted by subysouth
Further take a lesson from the racers, use the manual transmission to help brake the car. My .02

As expensive as brakes are, they're still cheaper than engines, or transmissions.

Let the brakes do their job and the engine do it's job. I'm mostly referring to normal and spirited driving, not track days or auto-x, as that's a different situation.

[gtguy]

I think the least expensive option for WRX folks (like me) is the calipers from the 4-pot kit, since we already have the rotors. Since the rears don't really do much, stainless lines, fluid and nicer pads should leave you good to go back there.

The caliper kit is about $600, but you will need to get 16x7 wheels to clear the 4-pots. I just got some of the Fox 5s from Tire Rack, for $89 each. IMHO, none of the other big brake kits make sense because they rule out 16" wheels, which means if you live in the snow belt and want to run snows, you either have to pony up for 17" snows or stay inside when the white stuff falls.

I'm going with the Subaru 4-pot kit. Some people are putting on a 2-pot kit for the rear, but I think that might be excess, especially given the price of the 2-pot rear setup.

Kevin

[mav1c]

Yes, I forgot to add in the VERY important factor of good tires. Grippy tire = better braking.

As for fade and fluid, I think the pads are just as much a factor in fade. The stock "organic" material used in most stock pads breaks down fairly quickly under extreme heat, and can actually start to melt, causing the pads to "glaze over" and severely reduce braking power.

[d00f]

Originally posted by Concillian


As expensive as brakes are, they're still cheaper than engines, or transmissions.

Let the brakes do their job and the engine do it's job. I'm mostly referring to normal and spirited driving, not track days or auto-x, as that's a different situation.

Although you should not use your engine as a substitute for brakes you can certainly extend the life of your brakes by going through the gears rather than popping it into neutral and using only the brakes.

Given that the stock ECU cuts injectors and spark for decell it's obviously designed with engine braking in mind.

-Michael

[WRXThis]

JaMa.
Did you check out M2's brake package? Their brakes recorded a 60-0 time of 102 feet in the Sport Compact Car article last spring. Not many brakes have been proven with actually number like these ones. Check them out: M2 Performance

[subysouth]

mav you are definitely right about the glazing of the rotors also contributing to fade, I guess I have been led to believe it was predominately the fluid. In any case if I didnt mention pads I should have. At least a good quality semi-metallic. I have always liked Performance Friction pads but I dont think the are yet available for Subaru. There are many excellent pads mentioned above.

As far as engine braking wrecking engines and transmissions, this has not been my experience. My driving style tends to move some of the pressure from the brakes to the clutch. I have been driving this way for 13 years on manual transmissions and have yet to experience either transmission(I did have a shifter yoke failure in an Opel GT once but thats another story) or engine failure. I have destroyed three GM THs, hence my dislike for autos. Obviously some disclaimers here- dont shift into first at 100 mph. Walk your way down through the gears. I like to look at it as trimming the mph down to help the brakes. Also your are in gear with the clutch out ready to accelerate out of the corner etc. Done well it is sweet.

[bgsntth]

JaMa, I think you hit the nail on the head, and I thank you for spearheading an intelligent discussion. I have been researching brakes for a while now, and will eventually make a 4 pot upgrade when I save enough fundage. My personal experiences with the stock brakes have been frustrating. In my experience they simply are not equal to the performance of the engine. I believe if you drive aggressively for sustained periods of time (DE/TD, mountain roads) you will generate enough heat in your brakes resulting in bad things. Even upgrading the pads and fluid is not enough in my opinion-our WRXs need bigger brakes to dissipate heat.

For example, with stock fluid and EBC Reds at a DE/TD (Laguna Seca). I experienced no fade, but my fluid went from above "H" to below "L" in one day. The EBCs did not fade, but the calipers turned white from the heat. The EBC's also wore to the backing plate-why I will never buy them again.

With Castrol GT-LMA and stock pads at the recent Suby event at Laguna Seca (12-14). The stock pads would fade significantly after about 15" on the track. Such that I would have to stay off them for a lap to cool down, and then start-up again. They never went away completely, but it was frustrating and disconcerting. More disconcerting is the grease that was I found coating the wheel wells at the end of the day. I suspect this is bearing grease, which may be a result of the brakes getting too hot and boiling the bearing grease? Rallyperformance talks about this leading to brake failure, which scares the beejezus out of me. BTW, I only burned a little fluid.

I've also expereinced brake fade driving on extended trips over curvy mountain roads, so I don't think this is a "track" application only problem. I'm going to try either Hawk or Mintex pads next, but am not sure if this is going to solve the overheating problem, just prevent fade.

The Stoptechs got a great review in the Dec. European Car. I'm also looking at the Prodrive and Suby 4-pot/rallyperformance package. I too would like to hear from folks who have these packages, what pads they are using, and how they hold-up during DE/TD's-the only safe way to experience most of our WRX's potential.

Thanks!

[mav1c]

Engine braking is essential for quick times at the track.

And if it's done right on the street, can really help the brakes last. Just have to remember to heel and toe, and/or blip the throttle to match revs when you're down shifting. This puts a LOT less stress on the clutch and tranny.

[Marquis]

IMHO, none of the other big brake kits make sense because they rule out 16" wheels

Not to be a smarty-pants, but one of the ScoobySports Brembo kit also fits under 16" (16x7) wheels.

My experience with the OEM brakes, even on my underpowered car, has been less than stellar. The first set of front rotors cracked, and the second set (which I've had for a couple of months) is now warped. I'm not sure what I'm going to do. I'd really like to go to the ScoobySports kit, just to be done with it. I'm sure I'll never warp those on the street. But at $2K, who can afford them? I'm also considering the Subaru 4-pots, but I don't know if they'll stand up to the abuse I put brakes through. Who knows...

[supermoose]

there are 2 differnt subaru 4 pot kits. from what i have figured out. correct me if im wrong. theres a 4 piston caliper that will bolt on a 02 WRX and allow you to use the stock existing 11.4" rotor. there is also an older STI subaru 4 piston caliper-looks the same. but uses a 11.7" rotor.

BOTH should NOT clear the stock 5 spoke twin's 02 WRX 16*6.5wheel. it is not the width 7' that makes the wheel clear the 4 piston caliper, it is simply the design of how much clearance u have.

right now on my car i am running 4 piston 11.7'sti subaru fronts with slotted rotors. it is a hell of a stopping presance. espicaly if u are figuring my 2350lb FWD impreza weighs roughly 800lbs less than the WRX!

ive got 10.5" single piston disc's in the back. they are from a 98 outback. the new outbacks have REALLY big rear disc's even bigger than mine, i dont know what they are but im sure somone here does. it would be a cheap upgrade to call around the junkyards and get a set of monster rear disc's off a LL bean or a H63.0 or somthign. the stock 02WRX rear diameter i believe is 10.3"

my argument is this:

why spend the mad cash on upgrading yout stock 11.4" 2 pots with stainless lines ($115) aftermarket pads($100 or so), racing fluid ($35?) and pimp rotors ($200+?) when u can just get a a sti 11.7" 4 pot conversion for ~ $700 new or $500 or so used(used calipers, new slotted rotors) i paid ~$500 or so for my setup and i got brand new slotted rotors. AP racing SHP pads can be gotten for ~ $70. i did go to Taiwan to grab them, but if enough people are interested i can hook up the contacts and get a box-o brakes shipped to the states.

im not trying to sell brakes, just simply stating the fact that u are better off spending the extra $300 or so on gettin the STI 4 pots brand new from somone like subaruparts.com or imprezawrx.com or the other guys on i-club that have shops.

get the 11.7"s too. Neither the 11.4' or 11.7" will clear stock 02 WRX wheels, so u might as well go big and dump your 11.4 2pots to somone that has a impreza L bc those 2 pots will stop the CRAP outa a 2400Lb car!

see if u can trade your 16*6.5's for some old 2001 RS 6.5 wides taht will clear or the old sti-ra oem 98-99 16*7 2.5 RS's that will also clear. its tough to do, but i got it done.

in taiwan the impreza turbo's come stock with 11.7" 4 pot fronts, single piston rears(dunno what diameter- i should find out) and teh 2000-2001 2.5RS wheels 16*7, 6 spoke i believe.

has anyone driven on own the M2 preformance 4pot f/r set? id LOVE to have them, just dont have 4K for brakes and the money to get the 17's that will clear!

anyone know if 16*7 SSR competitions in a 48mm offset will clear the subaru 4 pot caliper? i WANT those wheels

h

[mav1c]

I've heard so many times that the 4-Pot calipers will fit the stock WRX rotors, but I always questioned that because they're a little smaller that the STi rotors that come in the kit. (11.4" vs 11.7") So is there a different 4-pot caliper that specifically fits the 11.4" rotor, and are they being used with a slight bit of pad off the rotor?

I would guess that the 16x7 SSR Comps in a 48mm offset would fit fine, since they'll be even further out that the 16x7 RS wheels with a 53mm offset. And the spoke design on SSR comps are pretty thin...

[Concillian]

[i]im not trying to sell brakes, just simply stating the fact that u are better off spending the extra $300 or so on gettin the STI 4 pots brand new from somone like subaruparts.com or imprezawrx.com or the other guys on i-club that have shops.
[/b]

It's not just $300 if you have to buy new wheels and tires for winter. The stock impreza '02 wheels simply do not fit over these brakes. RS wheels fit, but they aren't so common, since people KNOW that they fit over the 4 pots and the 16x6.5s don't.

The Fox 5s from tirerack seem to be the best option, but you're still paying considerably more than a straight $300.

I guess if you never drive in snow it's fine to do, but that's half the point of a Subaru for many people.

[bgsntth]

I'm going to throw one more big brake option into the picture for discussion-Movit's. These have our British and Swiss brethen all foaming at the mouth. Supposedly the best low maintenance/street and track pad in existence. The Porker crowd refers to them as "Big Reds". For me, I think it is between the Movits and the Stoptech's

Movit does do group buys discounts



BTW, a gent was running these on his big S6 at LS (12-14). He had the full race set-up (Hoosiers, roll cage etc.), and was blindingly fast. He was raving about his brakes and tearing up the track.

http://www.ultimategarage.com/bigbrake1.html

[Patrick Olsen]

Man, all sorts of things to address here. I'll just go in order...

Originally posted by subysouth
Further take a lesson from the racers, use the manual transmission to help brake the car. My .02

Originally posted by mav1c
Engine braking is essential for quick times at the track.

And if it's done right on the street, can really help the brakes last. Just have to remember to heel and toe, and/or blip the throttle to match revs when you're down shifting. This puts a LOT less stress on the clutch and tranny.

There's a big difference between heel-and-toe downshifting and engine braking. "Racers" rev match their downshifts specifically to avoid engine braking when they let out the clutch during a shift. Yes, there is some engine braking effect simply because the car is in gear while you're slowing down, but the effect is incredibly minor compared to effect of the brakes. And racers certainly don't downshift while braking to save the brakes, they do it to ensure they're in the right gear at all times in case they need to power out of a bad situation.

Originally posted by gtguy
IMHO, none of the other big brake kits make sense because they rule out 16" wheels, which means if you live in the snow belt and want to run snows, you either have to pony up for 17" snows or stay inside when the white stuff falls.

Or you could just swap back to your stock brakes in the winter. Shouldn't take more than a couple hours to install the rotors and calipers and bleed the brakes. Yeah, it's kind of a pain in the arse, but you'd only be doing it twice a year. And there's really no need to have the monster brakes on the car in the winter anyway since your snow tires almost certainly don't have enough grip to take advantage of the additional braking power of the big brakes.

Originally posted by WRXThis
Their brakes recorded a 60-0 time of 102 feet in the Sport Compact Car article last spring.

As has been pointed out in other threads on the board here, a significant portion of that braking performance was due to the Kumho V700s the car was riding on. I can honestly feel a difference between when I switch from my street tires over to Kumhos for auto-x or track events, tires are that important. I'd love to see what kind of numbers my car could post with the Kumhos on it along with my Porterfield R4 track duty pads and stock-sized plain Brembo rotors. It sure feels damn impressive!

Originally posted by bgsntth
I experienced no fade, but my fluid went from above "H" to below "L" in one day. The EBCs did not fade, but the calipers turned white from the heat. The EBC's also wore to the backing plate-why I will never buy them again..... BTW, I only burned a little fluid.

I don't think you "burned" any fluid on either occasion, you were just using up a lot of pad material. Hence the caliper pistons are extended farther, which means fluid from the master cylinder has to fill the gap, so you need to top off the master cylinder. Wearing down any pads will have the same effect, but it's a helluva lot more obvious when you use up an entire set of pads in just a day or two - been there, done that!

Originally posted by supermoose
see if u can trade your 16*6.5's for some old 2001 RS 6.5 wides taht will clear or the old sti-ra oem 98-99 16*7 2.5 RS's that will also clear.

All of the '98-'01 2.5RS wheels were 16x7".

Just out of curiosity, what kind of cooling setup are you guys running at the track, or on the street for that matter? You can drastically improve the capability of an existing setup by getting some air to the rotors, and it shouldn't be too hard to make a completely streetable set of cooling ducts.

Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan