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Old 01-12-2020, 06:40 PM   #26
awcforever
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So I think I'm getting somewhere with this last change. CL/OL delay decreased to minimums. Open loop enrichment and fail safe dropped a great deal, and its coming into the 13ish AFR range at WOT which still isn't good but its a far better condition than when I was at 15 and climbing. I just made some more changes to the revised map and I'm going to try to reel it in if I can. I have a weird boost or fuel cut at higher RPM's. Haven't figured that out yet.

https://datazap.me/u/awcforever/2002...g=0&data=10-11

Here is the latest drive I took. Feel free to browse my logs too. I try to arrange them by date.
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Old 01-12-2020, 10:17 PM   #27
86Dreams
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Therumblebox View Post
Something else to consider - Iíve been chasing a fuel trim issue with a friend for the past few months, the car was always lean. The culprit ended up being MAF scaling. This was on a 207 running off a forester ecu, with the base being set up for a usdm 205, as that was the running gear (intake, etc). Yeah, thatís a bit of a mouthful.
Anyways, he ended up finding that the jdm MAF scaling was different than the usdm scaling, despite using the same intake. Might be a dead end for you, but it wouldnít hurt to try making a 20% or so change in MAF scaling and seeing if the car responds.
It's not his mad scaling causing the issue. If you look at the mad rate the calculated load will be putting him into fuel map territory richer than stoich. Plus his ol /cl status is 8 putting him in open loop. Yet he is still running 14.7
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Old 01-13-2020, 08:04 AM   #28
awcforever
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Originally Posted by 86Dreams View Post
This is a puzzle.ill throw some more ideas at you:
What is your IAM?
Can you post a snap shot of your learning view?
Did you change the fail safe OL fueling table?
Did you verify fuel pressure?
Can you try a different ecu?
SO I probably have to do a little more reading on the Learning View Utility. I've attached a screenshot of my Learning view but it doesn't seem like its overly informative. Let me know if there is something specific you want me to do to get you more information.

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Old 01-13-2020, 08:10 AM   #29
awcforever
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SO check this out. The changes I made to the CL/OL and enrichment tables really paid off. Still have some playing/tweaking to do but here it is.
I'm idling at 14.5-14.7
WOT in every gear is down to 10.8 - 11.4. Car really seems happier
I still have max boost cut back to about 9psi while I mess with the base fueling.....trying to stay safe and all...

SO a new problem...At a decent load, maybe 3k-3500 rpms, the car will buck if I go WOT. If I ease past that point its fine but If I crank 2nd gear at about 2800rpms, give or take, it will buck and lose some rpm then wake up like a burp or something.

Check this log out. You can see the hiccup at every acceleration event but I'm not sure what it is yet. I still have some diagnostics to play with. Could it be the lack of delay between CL/OL? I may add some back in because its every gear at close to the same load range.

https://datazap.me/u/awcforever/rev2...?log=0&data=11

Let me know if you have any questions. I know I do.....LOL
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Old 01-13-2020, 11:14 AM   #30
86Dreams
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Your IAM Is 0 Stop Driving It!
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Old 01-13-2020, 01:29 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by 86Dreams View Post
Your IAM Is 0 Stop Driving It!
I'm not sure if I did the learning view correctly. The IAM may be 0, I'm not sure, it changes on the log and the car is running smoothly. I haven't gone balls out with it or anything but it looks Like its supposed to be up higher. I referenced going WOT in previous posts but if you view my logs i don't think I've surpassed 4k RPMs in any instance so far. More testing for changes by throttle %

As i said i'm still learning and logging so i appreciate the heads up. Hopefully she doesn't pop but it feels okay. I haven't had the AFR or drive-ability yet to actually "drive" the car the way i want to.

So with IAM at 0......whats your suspicions?
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Old 01-13-2020, 03:47 PM   #32
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IAM is the same as cobb DAM.
this link goes into knock
http://www.romraider.com/forum/topic1840.html
cobb also has some discussion. And theres plenty here as well if you look.

its a measure of how severe the knock is in the car. So right now there is severe knock. Ive been looking at this stuff on here for 6 years and Ive never seen some one with 0 IAM.

Now that you might have fixed your fueling, confirm if its accurate by comparing your wideband to your OL Primary Enrichment table.

Then reset the ecu using RR or by unhooking the battery for like 30s.

Drive for a while and observe the IAM is it 12? Keep driving.
Is it 16? All is well, make sure your Fueling is correct.
Is it 0? Youve still got problems.
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Old 01-13-2020, 04:03 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by 86Dreams View Post
IAM is the same as cobb DAM.
this link goes into knock
http://www.romraider.com/forum/topic1840.html
cobb also has some discussion. And theres plenty here as well if you look.

its a measure of how severe the knock is in the car. So right now there is severe knock. Ive been looking at this stuff on here for 6 years and Ive never seen some one with 0 IAM.

Now that you might have fixed your fueling, confirm if its accurate by comparing your wideband to your OL Primary Enrichment table.

Then reset the ecu using RR or by unhooking the battery for like 30s.

Drive for a while and observe the IAM is it 12? Keep driving.
Is it 16? All is well, make sure your Fueling is correct.
Is it 0? Youve still got problems.
I will look into doing that. I've read that post but I think I did something wrong on that IAM reading with learning view because my fine knock learning, knock advance, and knock correction is so low which unless I'm reading wrong seems like a good thing. I will provide more information when I get my hands on it.

I'm not driving it hard regardless other than logging which I'm still staying well away from redline. Hopefully I don't have to dig into my extra engines LOL
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Old 01-13-2020, 04:14 PM   #34
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I will reset the ECU and check my current configuration as well. I checked it in the log and its zero all the time regardless of load. I will have to research some more about that. I definitely don't feel that i know enough about it to make any assumptions.
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Old 01-13-2020, 04:57 PM   #35
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Just a little more to add to the pile.....This was the log I did last night. AFR's looked good to I took it up to 4700RPM in 2nd gear and there are 4 knock events in that log. The IAM is showing close to zero so i do believe there is a weird problem.

https://datazap.me/u/awcforever/log-...g=0&data=11-12

I will update tonight when i have the chance and keep track of IAM. I see that 8-16 is kind of the safer range to look for in the 16bit cars. I'm still trying to understand the correlation between IAM, knock, and the logging parameters. If the car was knocking badly and IAM is correct at 0 then I would assume I'd be getting more knock correction events. Assuming I'm understanding correctly of course.
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Old 01-14-2020, 10:27 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awcforever View Post
I'm still trying to understand the correlation between IAM, knock, and the logging parameters. If the car was knocking badly and IAM is correct at 0 then I would assume I'd be getting more knock correction events.
Quote:
Originally Posted by awcforever View Post
Assuming I'm understanding correctly of course.
You dont understand it.

Knock Correction Advance = (Timing Advance Maximum * (IAM/16)) + feedback knock correction + fine learning knock correction
Total Ignition Timing = Base Timing + KCA + any other corrections that need to be applied

The IAM or course knock ignition trim is a way for the computer to automatically account for low quality fuel and for engine conditions which create knock.

Knock in an engine can come from lots of sources, ignition timing can be too early, a hot spot can auto ignite the fuel, even compression of the hot gas can cause it to ignite.

Knock in an engine is a sharp spike in cylinder pressure, it can be audible and will sound like a ping. This spike in pressure can cause damage to the rotating assembly, pistons will become pitted and in severe cases they will crack or have a hole blown through them.

In order to mitigate damage when the ECU detects knock it will remove ignition advance. It pulls timing.

Subaru employs 3 types of knock correction. Feedback knock correction reacts to knock when load is changing quickly by pulling timing in steps of 2.11 degrees. If knock is no longer detected it will add timing back in steps of about 0.7*.

Fine knock learnng will adjust ignition advance trims usually under operating states of constant load. It uses the same methodology by pulling timing in a large step and then adding it back in if knock is not detected.

Course knock correction aka IAM aka DAM. Is an additional ignition advance table. Total ignition timing is base timing + the correction table value.
This second table is scaled by the Ignition advance Multiplier.

The ECU uses different logic for the other trims when IAM is low.

So to evaluate the severity of the possibility of knock you want to prioritize IAM over all others, if its not 16 then there is some issue and FKL might be 0 across the board because the timing has been pulled globally based off of IAM and the correction table.
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Old 01-14-2020, 10:42 AM   #37
awcforever
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 86Dreams View Post
You dont understand it.

Knock Correction Advance = (Timing Advance Maximum * (IAM/16)) + feedback knock correction + fine learning knock correction
Total Ignition Timing = Base Timing + KCA + any other corrections that need to be applied

The IAM or course knock ignition trim is a way for the computer to automatically account for low quality fuel and for engine conditions which create knock.

Knock in an engine can come from lots of sources, ignition timing can be too early, a hot spot can auto ignite the fuel, even compression of the hot gas can cause it to ignite.

Knock in an engine is a sharp spike in cylinder pressure, it can be audible and will sound like a ping. This spike in pressure can cause damage to the rotating assembly, pistons will become pitted and in severe cases they will crack or have a hole blown through them.

In order to mitigate damage when the ECU detects knock it will remove ignition advance. It pulls timing.

Subaru employs 3 types of knock correction. Feedback knock correction reacts to knock when load is changing quickly by pulling timing in steps of 2.11 degrees. If knock is no longer detected it will add timing back in steps of about 0.7*.

Fine knock learnng will adjust ignition advance trims usually under operating states of constant load. It uses the same methodology by pulling timing in a large step and then adding it back in if knock is not detected.

Course knock correction aka IAM aka DAM. Is an additional ignition advance table. Total ignition timing is base timing + the correction table value.
This second table is scaled by the Ignition advance Multiplier.

The ECU uses different logic for the other trims when IAM is low.

So to evaluate the severity of the possibility of knock you want to prioritize IAM over all others, if its not 16 then there is some issue and FKL might be 0 across the board because the timing has been pulled globally based off of IAM and the correction table.
Damn thanks man! Iíll definitely look more into the timing portion. Based on your explanation and the knock strategy forum it looks like due to my increased compression of the EJ22 block Iím going to have to pull timing at higher loads to work on getting the IAM # up. The displacement/compression increase is causing detonation when running factory EJ205 timing figures.

Also after a few hours of study last night it Looks like setting WGDC to zero and driving normally will give me insight to fuel trims and I can work from there on AFR. My adjustments to the OL enrichment table werenít done right. It richened me up but the way I did it is more of a temporary fix from what Iím reading.

I think Iím going to go back to the factory map and make the above small changes and learn some more about timing as I log.

I definitely didnít have any engine noise or anything which is good, but the IAM is definitely an issue and I think the higher compression is going to be a lot of trial and error to learn a good timing strategy.

As usual Iíll keep updating and hopefully get my numbers looking better, really appreciate the help.
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Old 01-14-2020, 11:11 AM   #38
86Dreams
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for calibrating airflow pay attention to maf mafv throttle af sensor and ffb/primary open loop fueling map.

use constant throttle, stabbing the throttle will trigger tip in and throw off the readings.
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Old 01-14-2020, 11:12 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by awcforever View Post
Damn thanks man! I’ll definitely look more into the timing portion. Based on your explanation and the knock strategy forum it looks like due to my increased compression of the EJ22 block I’m going to have to pull timing at higher loads to work on getting the IAM # up. The displacement/compression increase is causing detonation when running factory EJ205 timing figures.

Also after a few hours of study last night it Looks like setting WGDC to zero and driving normally will give me insight to fuel trims and I can work from there on AFR. My adjustments to the OL enrichment table weren’t done right. It richened me up but the way I did it is more of a temporary fix from what I’m reading.

I think I’m going to go back to the factory map and make the above small changes and learn some more about timing as I log.

I definitely didn’t have any engine noise or anything which is good, but the IAM is definitely an issue and I think the higher compression is going to be a lot of trial and error to learn a good timing strategy.

As usual I’ll keep updating and hopefully get my numbers looking better, really appreciate the help.
Engines with different compression values make things more difficult to work on and takes a bit more finesse

A stock engine is much simpler to work through for these things which is why now that I have the opportunity I'm completely rebuilding my tune because it was so bad from the previous owner.

I currently have some injectors lined up and trying to source a catless up pipe simple because everything else has been done.
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Old 01-14-2020, 12:32 PM   #40
awcforever
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Engines with different compression values make things more difficult to work on and takes a bit more finesse

A stock engine is much simpler to work through for these things which is why now that I have the opportunity I'm completely rebuilding my tune because it was so bad from the previous owner.

I currently have some injectors lined up and trying to source a catless up pipe simple because everything else has been done.
Yeah this car had a locked up EJ205 in it when I bought it. I've put together a bunch of WRX's but typically I cop out and buy an Accessport for dyno tuning.

I just really want to learn enough to avoid that extra cost when I build cars. So this car literally has $1100 total in it from buying to building I figured it would be the perfect "figure it out" car to learn on.

I didn't quite anticipate the 2.2 being so fussy but once I figure it out that will open a lot of opportunity for some other projects. I have an STI block with 205 heads in the shop as well waiting for a roller to dump it in. Again though until I get the tuning down I'm going to hold out and keep repairing the NA cars for now. I typically have a lot. LOL

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Old 01-14-2020, 12:36 PM   #41
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Yah I'm working on a 205/257 hybrid myself lol.
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Old 01-14-2020, 09:45 PM   #42
awcforever
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Originally Posted by 86Dreams View Post
for calibrating airflow pay attention to maf mafv throttle af sensor and ffb/primary open loop fueling map.

use constant throttle, stabbing the throttle will trigger tip in and throw off the readings.
So here is learning view on mostly stock map. I am going by the "Subie Newbie" tuning guide so I changed OL fueling map, WGDC is at 0, and I pulled 6* of timing across the board. The logs beneath the learning view image are completely closed loop drives. There are some spikes as I stopped for fuel and went through a few stop signs but mostly low RPM cruising.

Not really sure if this is helpful but I'm going to go by the unofficial guide and do this from scratch using the factory map



https://datazap.me/u/awcforever/log-...?log=0&data=11

https://datazap.me/u/awcforever/log-...?log=1&data=10
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Old 01-15-2020, 10:44 AM   #43
86Dreams
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what kind of car was the ej22 out of ? Maybe lets see if we can get the stock rom and compare timing to what youre using.

i wonder if maybe there could be a bad knock sensor or something loose in the engine that sounds like knock.

Did you verify fuel pressure?

If you go into open loop does the ecu fuel correctly?

what is the compression ratio of the new longblock?
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Old 01-15-2020, 11:24 AM   #44
awcforever
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what kind of car was the ej22 out of ? Maybe lets see if we can get the stock rom and compare timing to what youre using.
The EJ22 was out of a 95 legacy 136k miles dual port

Quote:
Originally Posted by 86Dreams View Post
i wonder if maybe there could be a bad knock sensor or something loose in the engine that sounds like knock.
Possible but itís not audible to the ear. I read about detcans which may be an option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 86Dreams View Post
Did you verify fuel pressure?
I got ~33psi at idle. I didnít do any driving or disconnect the FPR to test it, I can do that if you deem helpful. Iíve just been busy running around so Iím like a ping pong ball at the shop. LOL!


Quote:
Originally Posted by 86Dreams View Post
If you go into open loop does the ecu fuel correctly?
I believe so, the couple times I left closed loop on my drives it dropped quickly to ~11 or so AFR but I quickly let off in an attempt to stay in closed loop for that particular log. I do believe if I stayed in it she would find the 10.23 that I had the table set to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 86Dreams View Post
what is the compression ratio of the new longblock?
The CR for this combination should be 8.8:1 which Iím glad you mentioned because I assumed it would be a lot higher until I looked it up.
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Old 01-20-2020, 07:24 PM   #45
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Okay. For all interested parties. I decided to pull the intercooler off and do a pressure test. All was well. It held 20psi without any visible soap bubbles. While that was off I replaced the knock sensor with a new one and cleaned the mating surfaces. There was a good bit of debris and a 10mm nut sitting next to it. All clean now.

I am currently on a factory map with the max boost set to 6psi and CEL's turned off for the EGT sensor.

Here is the link:

https://datazap.me/u/awcforever/fact...s?log=0&data=8

Its running fantastic just driving around. Never really went into open loop much but I believe I've logged a good amount of parameters.

IAM is still "1" and its still leaner than I like but all in the name of diagnosis we're at square one on a factory map.

Slowly but surely I'm am going to figure this thing out.
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