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Old 01-06-2020, 10:39 AM   #1
awcforever
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Default 2002 WRX Tuning question

Hey guys, I just finished my car last week and I have a weird gremlin that i can't seem to figure out. I figured I'd hit you guys up for some help.

2002 WRX wagon
Mods:
EJ22 block with 205 heads (all new valves and seals)
STI Up pipe
Blitz Nurspec 4" downpipe and 3.5" exhaust (all catless)
Cobb OEM diameter intake

Additionally I did a full refresh including timing belt, headgaskets, cam seals, spark plugs, all new vacuum lines throughout, clutch, 12.5lb flywheel, Denso MAF sensor, Denso upstream O2 sensor, silicone turbo inlet, and new intercooler "Y" pipe. The original MAF and O2 sensors were working but older and in rough shape. I've had issues in the past with tuning on old sensors so I replaced both to basically remove any doubt.

My OL and CL AFR targets are at roughly 14.7 regardless of engine load. I have no CEL's i scanned the ECU and have no pending codes. MAF is fluctuating within spec/load and my upstream O2 is matching the readings from my Innovate wideband.

The only variable I'm unsure of is when I switched to the catless STI up pipe I had to abandon my EGT probe. I didn't tune it out or put any resistors in it but in a week of driving it still hasn't triggered a CEL. The info online is so spotty as to whether it does anything besides trigger a light.

I have the stock/original map saved on my laptop but for the sake of trying I uploaded a very known/popular tune from ROM Raider that was basically all of my mods other than the increased displacement of the EJ22 block. Still no dice which makes me think its mechanical. I just did this yesterday so the results are still the same.

I can provide logs. I've done three logs trying to pinpoint my issues but not having a whole lot of luck. I'm at work right now so they're at home on my other laptop.

I've worked on Subaru for many years. Typically I buy an Accessport and take my cars for dyno tuning before selling but I have very little money in this car and decided to make it my maiden voyage to play with ROM Raider since I have 2 more blocks and a few sets of heads just in case they will be needed. LOL. I've also posted this to their forum but I've been on Nasioc for a good amount of time and received a lot of help from you guys so I appreciate it.







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Old 01-06-2020, 10:50 AM   #2
shagfagon
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You never actually told us what gremlins you are experiencing?

14.7 is way too lean at high load
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Old 01-06-2020, 10:55 AM   #3
awcforever
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LOL, sorry. Thatís the gremlin. The AFR targets arenít moving at all. Even if i do a pull up to 7/8 psi it stays at 14/15ish. Even on a factory map it should apply some fueling in an attempt to compensate I would think. Even more so now with an adjusted map for a few mods. Itís like something isnít receiving the correct reference to adjust for proper fueling under high load. Iím just not 100% sure of the sequence of operation.
Like if rpms are ?, and MAF is ?, upstream O2 reading ? Then injectors should do ?
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Old 01-06-2020, 11:46 AM   #4
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Do your AFR readings move at all during any driving? If not then there is an issue somewhere with your WB.
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Old 01-06-2020, 12:01 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firebane View Post
Do your AFR readings move at all during any driving? If not then there is an issue somewhere with your WB.

The WB is working good. It will max out to 22.4 when down shifting and cruising speed it sits between 14.5-15. If I start to accelerate it will drop quickly to 13ish and bounce back to 14ish but continue to rise until I let off. I did a half throttle pull in 3rd gear up to about 60mph and it gradually increased from 15 to 17 on the wideband. Definitely no good. When I'm logging the WB is very close inline to the new upstream O2 I installed. This makes me think its sensor/mechanical because the car is doing its thing but something isn't stirring the koolaid.

The Innovate WB does require free air calibration upon install. I thought similar to you and decided to recalibrate it after the first run but its dead on as it seems.
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Old 01-06-2020, 12:11 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by awcforever View Post
The WB is working good. It will max out to 22.4 when down shifting and cruising speed it sits between 14.5-15. If I start to accelerate it will drop quickly to 13ish and bounce back to 14ish but continue to rise until I let off. I did a half throttle pull in 3rd gear up to about 60mph and it gradually increased from 15 to 17 on the wideband. Definitely no good. When I'm logging the WB is very close inline to the new upstream O2 I installed. This makes me think its sensor/mechanical because the car is doing its thing but something isn't stirring the koolaid.

The Innovate WB does require free air calibration upon install. I thought similar to you and decided to recalibrate it after the first run but its dead on as it seems.
Where do you have the WB installed? It should be after turbo and before the cat and secondary O2 if you have that.

Mine is about 8" from the turbo and is before either of those.
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Old 01-06-2020, 12:31 PM   #7
awcforever
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Quote:
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Where do you have the WB installed? It should be after turbo and before the cat and secondary O2 if you have that.

Mine is about 8" from the turbo and is before either of those.
Mine is in the downpipe about 4" from the turbo. No cats

The main issue is the car is so lean but its not going in the right direction for some reason upon acceleration. I tested the pressure regulator, i charged the intake manifold and intercooler with 20psi and did a leak test there.

As lean as it is she will cut out about 10psi while logging. Definitely frustrating. While logging the target AFR's stay about in the 14ish range. This issue carried over even after I uploaded a richer base map with better injector scaling. I really need to find some good documentation on the sequence. I know a lot of it is tuning but from
accelerator pedal-->throttlebody-->intake-->exhaust-->boost-->injectors pulse, etc......something in the chain is missing. A vacuum reference or something. Its killing me,
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Old 01-06-2020, 03:34 PM   #8
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I've been researching for a while. I'm going to run a fuel pressure test to rule out anything like that. Also check for exhaust leaks on the manifold. The gaskets are all new but who knows at this point.

The ECU is still not throwing any codes. I'm driving the car nearly everyday but granny shifting and staying out of boost all together. In all honesty the car is running and driving amazing! Shifting at low RPM's and drive it like a Prius isn't too hard considering the N/A block has a decent range of torque down low. Annoying regardless though because I built a toy and I'm ready to play, LOL. I'm not into busting ringlands or spinning rod bearings though. Replaced a lot of engines due to bad tunes/bad drivers, that's an expensive hobby

I will stay active on the thread until resolved. So many unresolved threads.

I'll run a smoke test, fuel pressure test, and I believe i have an extra Walbro 255 sitting at the house for a rainy day. With the minimal mods though i believe the factory pump should be more than adequate. I may also flash the car back to a stock map and start fresh from the get go again. The target AFR's just really bother me.
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Old 01-07-2020, 07:50 AM   #9
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I'm off tomorrow. Last night ended up being a late night trying to finish my Forester so I didn't get into the WRX. The romraider forum is also giving me some good information and an intro to "carberry" which I have to do some research on. Just heard of it for the first time yesterday.
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Old 01-07-2020, 02:07 PM   #10
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Okay here is a log if anyone is interested in giving me a hand. I didn't go very high in the RPM range. I believe I was able to get to 3500RPM a couple times but boost was getting close to 10lbs on the gauge and the AFR was creeping to 17 on the wideband.

If you have any questions please feel free to ask. Excuse me if my answers aren't optimal. I'm a little new to the in-depth portion of the logging/tuning.

https://datazap.me/u/awcforever/02-wrx-20200103?log=0
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Old 01-07-2020, 02:15 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awcforever View Post
Okay here is a log if anyone is interested in giving me a hand. I didn't go very high in the RPM range. I believe I was able to get to 3500RPM a couple times but boost was getting close to 10lbs on the gauge and the AFR was creeping to 17 on the wideband.

If you have any questions please feel free to ask. Excuse me if my answers aren't optimal. I'm a little new to the in-depth portion of the logging/tuning.

https://datazap.me/u/awcforever/02-wrx-20200103?log=0
Are you logging your WB results? I don't see anything over 14 afr?

Or is it the afr sensor #1?

Last edited by firebane; 01-07-2020 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 01-07-2020, 02:18 PM   #12
awcforever
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firebane View Post
Are you logging your WB results? I don't see anything over 14 afr?
Thanks for bringing that up. The only A/F reference in the log is my upstream O2 at the moment. I couldn't find my cable to log the innovate WB i am running. I can confirm while logging the innovate wideband was matching my upstream O2 sensor almost exact aside from the downshifting and other areas where the factory O2 was out of range. The 14.5+/- readings you see in the log are 100% accurate.
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Old 01-07-2020, 04:27 PM   #13
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Around stoich fueling you dont need a wideband, the upstream will be accurate up to about 13.5AFRg.

Can you include throttle position as a reference for what the car is doing? Your AF correction is pegged at its highest value so it is running lean...

whats your IAM?

did you verify fuel pressure at idle and under load?

can you smell gasoline?

Did you start from an 02 stock basemap or something else?
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Old 01-07-2020, 05:21 PM   #14
awcforever
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 86Dreams View Post
Around stoich fueling you dont need a wideband, the upstream will be accurate up to about 13.5AFRg.

Can you include throttle position as a reference for what the car is doing? Your AF correction is pegged at its highest value so it is running lean...
I will do another log. A friend also asked for throttle reference. I will do another log tonight or tomorrow. I wish i could go higher in the RPM range but the wideband will sit at 14ish cruising and continue to rise up to 17ish if you accelerate quickly and get around 8-10lbs of boost. I will also find my cable so i can include the WB reference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 86Dreams View Post
whats your IAM?
I will have to log it as well. I'm not sure. What does that help you diagnose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 86Dreams View Post
did you verify fuel pressure at idle and under load?
I just finished my forester so I didn't have a chance to hook my fuel gauge up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 86Dreams View Post
can you smell gasoline?
I don't smell fresh gasoline, but the exhaust has a VERY RICH smell that I attributed to being catless but you can confirm if thats a safe assumption.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 86Dreams View Post
Did you start from an 02 stock basemap or something else?
I started with the factory stock map on the car and noticed the lean issue so I uploaded a very popular base map on ROM Raider. It was a "stage 2" tune for 93 octane. I installed it as a test because I figured a map manipulated for catless/intake/exhaust/downpipe should run better than the factory map i have.

Furthermore to clear anything up. The car is still fully functioning on stock equipment like the TD04, factory BCS, TGV's, etc. Just for clarification. I'm not looking for a pile of power or anything. Just daily reliability for the most part. (Not that any turbo soob i've ever had provides it) LOL
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Old 01-08-2020, 12:38 PM   #15
86Dreams
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I asked about IAM because the log shows positive fine knock learning. I suppose its curiosity more than anything.

If the car is ALWAYS lean, then that could indicate a leak between the turbo and MAF or at the MAF itself.

youre using stock injectors right?

can you name the map so I can look at it?

also what brand was the new MAF that you put in?

Last edited by 86Dreams; 01-08-2020 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 01-08-2020, 03:33 PM   #16
awcforever
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 86Dreams View Post
I asked about IAM because the log shows positive fine knock learning. I suppose its curiosity more than anything.

If the car is ALWAYS lean, then that could indicate a leak between the turbo and MAF or at the MAF itself.

youre using stock injectors right?

can you name the map so I can look at it?

also what brand was the new MAF that you put in?
Stock injectors, Denso MAF. Car is ALWAYS lean. Excuse all the parameters on the log. I wasn't sure about the readings on some so I just added them.

Here is log 1
https://datazap.me/u/awcforever/01082?log=0&data=10-26

Here is log 2
https://datazap.me/u/awcforever/0108?log=0&data=10
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Old 01-08-2020, 05:01 PM   #17
86Dreams
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Did you try running the stock map?

Again which tune is this? Since its a community one I want to look at it. I am suspiscious of the Open loop map AFR value being 14.7 in every log without changing.
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Old 01-08-2020, 06:19 PM   #18
awcforever
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 86Dreams View Post
Did you try running the stock map?

Again which tune is this? Since its a community one I want to look at it. I am suspiscious of the Open loop map AFR value being 14.7 in every log without changing.
The stock map was doing the same thing as far as AFR goes.

Here is the link for the tune I used.
http://www.romraider.com/forum/viewt...hp?f=28&t=4075

There are two maps in the first post. I'm running the one WITHOUT launch control.

I knew it wasn't specific to all of my mods but I figured since the stock map was acting weird I'd flash something different to see if it may have sent me closer to a solution as far as my issues are going.

I'm going to pull a stock 2002 map off the forum and flash that to the car. The person I bought the car from didn't know enough to change the ecu I don't believe but maybe......I'll flash back to stock tonight and try to get two more logs. Maybe a little comparison will help the situation.

Really appreciate you taking the time to help.
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Old 01-09-2020, 10:14 AM   #19
86Dreams
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awcforever View Post
The stock map was doing the same thing as far as AFR goes.

Here is the link for the tune I used.
http://www.romraider.com/forum/viewt...hp?f=28&t=4075

There are two maps in the first post. I'm running the one WITHOUT launch control.

I knew it wasn't specific to all of my mods but I figured since the stock map was acting weird I'd flash something different to see if it may have sent me closer to a solution as far as my issues are going.

I'm going to pull a stock 2002 map off the forum and flash that to the car. The person I bought the car from didn't know enough to change the ecu I don't believe but maybe......I'll flash back to stock tonight and try to get two more logs. Maybe a little comparison will help the situation.

Really appreciate you taking the time to help.

Check for any leaks in the intake after the MAF sensor. Also make sure that the MAF sensor itself is seated correctly. if its off a little bit air can leak around it.

Try making these changes and see if it helps.
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Old 01-09-2020, 09:19 PM   #20
awcforever
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 86Dreams View Post
Check for any leaks in the intake after the MAF sensor. Also make sure that the MAF sensor itself is seated correctly. if its off a little bit air can leak around it.

Try making these changes and see if it helps.

Thanks man, Iíll mess with it. I have a VGA to USB coming tomorrow so I can log the wideband with everything else. Hopefully that will be helpful.
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Old 01-12-2020, 10:25 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awcforever View Post
Thanks man, Iíll mess with it. I have a VGA to USB coming tomorrow so I can log the wideband with everything else. Hopefully that will be helpful.
Okay, so I made your changes and it didnít seem like it really did anything to lower AFRís.

I apologize for the long wait but Iíve been building and testing different combinations. Basically I tossed the base maps and downloaded the factory map to my car with the correct identification number and I have just started changing tables and testing.

So.......I went into the open loop enrichment table and selected the entire table. I lowered ALL AFR targets about 15% so idle was about 13.5, WOT AFR in the higher engine load ranges was in the high 9ís. BUT! My car was actually leaner with that change.

I have sort of built a safety tune. I dropped my target boost table to stay below 10psi and basically Iím just editing and logging repeatedly. I may drop the MAF tuning and play with a speed density tune. Not sure

First though I want to test my MAP sensor because my absolute pressure NEVER reaches what my boost gauge is reading. I found that to be weird. I figured it should be close. Anyways, Iím still going to keep up on the forum and hopefully after a few more cycles editing the ROM I can come up with something to share and have you guys analyze. Once Iím running better with proper fueling I think it wonít be as much to take in, as far as fine tuning it anyway.
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Old 01-12-2020, 12:08 PM   #22
86Dreams
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This is a puzzle.ill throw some more ideas at you:
What is your IAM?
Can you post a snap shot of your learning view?
Did you change the fail safe OL fueling table?
Did you verify fuel pressure?
Can you try a different ecu?
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Old 01-12-2020, 01:28 PM   #23
awcforever
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 86Dreams View Post
This is a puzzle.ill throw some more ideas at you:
What is your IAM?
Can you post a snap shot of your learning view?
Did you change the fail safe OL fueling table?
Did you verify fuel pressure?
Can you try a different ecu?
The IAM (correct me if I'm wrong) in ECU flash is labeled "Advance Multiplier (initial) it is at 8. Advance multiplier step value is at 4.

https://datazap.me/u/awcforever/0110...g=0&data=10-19
Here is a log with knock correction advance. Its labeled IAM only if thats helpful at all. Forgive me if thats not what you're looking for I'm still learning/playing.

The rom I'm loading now has changes to the fail safe OL fueling table. I built this one last night. I lowered the AFR targets there as well just to test and see. I also took the OL/CL delay to minimums. I have a separate folder for the ROM's that I edit so if the car acts like garbage I just revert back to a good starting point and read more/learn and make further changes as I go along.

Fuel pressure I haven't done yet, I'm just waiting on my friend to bring my gauge back.....hopefully today.

I don't have a different ECU to try at the moment, but I can obtain one fairly easily if it comes to it. We have 4 cars at the moment but they are all going to be fix/flip so I don't want to dig it out but it can happen.

Learning view I will get you today.

Again I appreciate the help.
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Old 01-12-2020, 05:44 PM   #24
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Something else to consider - Iíve been chasing a fuel trim issue with a friend for the past few months, the car was always lean. The culprit ended up being MAF scaling. This was on a 207 running off a forester ecu, with the base being set up for a usdm 205, as that was the running gear (intake, etc). Yeah, thatís a bit of a mouthful.
Anyways, he ended up finding that the jdm MAF scaling was different than the usdm scaling, despite using the same intake. Might be a dead end for you, but it wouldnít hurt to try making a 20% or so change in MAF scaling and seeing if the car responds.
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Old 01-12-2020, 06:37 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Therumblebox View Post
Something else to consider - Iíve been chasing a fuel trim issue with a friend for the past few months, the car was always lean. The culprit ended up being MAF scaling. This was on a 207 running off a forester ecu, with the base being set up for a usdm 205, as that was the running gear (intake, etc). Yeah, thatís a bit of a mouthful.
Anyways, he ended up finding that the jdm MAF scaling was different than the usdm scaling, despite using the same intake. Might be a dead end for you, but it wouldnít hurt to try making a 20% or so change in MAF scaling and seeing if the car responds.
I haven't messed with the MAF scaling yet but I will look into it. I believe in my scenario I shouldn't have to but again I'm still fairly new to this. We will see.
Appreciate the advice.
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