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Old 08-14-2018, 10:42 PM   #201
PDXREALTOR
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Originally Posted by VladiWrX View Post
They definitely do. The 14 sti I was wrenching on (discussed in this thread) has the perrin fpr, and keying on engine off it built and held pressure for a while, and would very slowly start dropping after a good while. You might have an issue from what it sounds like?

The dw300 also has a check valve IIRC
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Originally Posted by 2slofouru View Post
Probably depends on the seal the regulator piston uses. I got the DW because it seemed like the seal and seat were designed well. I read somewhere about some regulators having seat wear that affected how well they worked. There are definitely many choices, it was a tough decision but DW seems to have a good quality control system and their techs are very knowledgeable.
I had a chat with a nice DW tech today. Very helpful. However, when you have tuners who won't touch DW injectors and some don't have the greatest things to say about their pumps I would question their QC more than anything else.

And, I'm a 3x DW injector and pump customer. If I had to do it over, or if I have to do it over, I would seriously consider the Bosch based on the info in this thread. The efficiency scale of that pump looks great and when you're getting into running 30+ psi trying to avoid elaborate fuel systems a couple of pumps with efficiency lines as flat as the 044 would seem to be the best bang for the buck.

Not trying to start anything about the discussion a few pages back, the chart just looked 'right' to me. Especially considering what I just did with my DW pump running out of steam at 85-90 psi @ peak torque. Will the 300 flow 75 80 psi without giving me issues? It's new now, what happens in a year?
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Old 08-14-2018, 10:58 PM   #202
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Did you mean the 400? The 300 has been around a while. The 400 shows to flow 350lph at 80psi and more at 75. Charts I've checked show the 044 not hitting 300lph between 75-80psi. At 90psi the bosch shows 250lph with the 400 showing about 340. Unless it's all smoke and mirrors, the slope of flow dropping off as pressure rises doesn't show the 044 in the lead.

The V2 DW300 supposedly flows "20 percent more" than the V1, with 280lph at 80psi and 275 at 75.

I understand, so no one can really make an assumption about the DW400. Until there have been several people running them to their limits, you can only go by specs and if their other pumps meet or exceed specs then I would venture a guess the 400 will as well. Supposedly it is manufactured in Germany as well (cough, cough..by Bosch).

This thread is supposed to be the simplest path though, and running two in tank pumps will always be more simple than an in tank pump and an external surge tank. You will need more space, more fuel connections, and more wiring complexity with an internal and external pump(s) setup.

At most, two in tank pumps will require slight hanger modification with a larger wire bulkhead connector and a couple of AN fittings for output and return. You can also run a speed controller for the pump(s) to reduce noise and extra heat produced at lower engine load, and keep pump and fuel rail heat absorption to a minimum.

It all depends on what you plan to use the car for and what level of complexity you are comfortable with. The bosch pumps are great and they have a lot of aftermarket mounting and surge tank options. I'm curious to see pics of what you come up with and see how well it works out. Do you have a build thread to keep up with progress?

Last edited by 2slofouru; 08-14-2018 at 11:12 PM.
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Old 08-14-2018, 11:55 PM   #203
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Did you mean the 400? The 300 has been around a while. The 400 shows to flow 350lph at 80psi and more at 75. Charts I've checked show the 044 not hitting 300lph between 75-80psi. At 90psi the bosch shows 250lph with the 400 showing about 340. Unless it's all smoke and mirrors, the slope of flow dropping off as pressure rises doesn't show the 044 in the lead.

The V2 DW300 supposedly flows "20 percent more" than the V1, with 280lph at 80psi and 275 at 75.

I understand, so no one can really make an assumption about the DW400. Until there have been several people running them to their limits, you can only go by specs and if their other pumps meet or exceed specs then I would venture a guess the 400 will as well. Supposedly it is manufactured in Germany as well (cough, cough..by Bosch).

This thread is supposed to be the simplest path though, and running two in tank pumps will always be more simple than an in tank pump and an external surge tank. You will need more space, more fuel connections, and more wiring complexity with an internal and external pump(s) setup.

At most, two in tank pumps will require slight hanger modification with a larger wire bulkhead connector and a couple of AN fittings for output and return. You can also run a speed controller for the pump(s) to reduce noise and extra heat produced at lower engine load, and keep pump and fuel rail heat absorption to a minimum.

It all depends on what you plan to use the car for and what level of complexity you are comfortable with. The bosch pumps are great and they have a lot of aftermarket mounting and surge tank options. I'm curious to see pics of what you come up with and see how well it works out. Do you have a build thread to keep up with progress?
I liked the line of the 044 because it is flatter. One 044 may not beat one DW 300 (I didn't even look at the numbers to be honest - just the lines), but my point was I'd take two 044s if they would solve a flow problem of a DW 300. I have the V2.

I kind of don't really care - as long as I have a bit of headroom, and it's easy. I'm of the thought the OP is on this one. My car is street duty only. Simplest path to fueling is what I want. If I had just bought two Bosch 044s instead a DW 300v2 perhaps I could have likely just kept my 1050cc injectors and 55 psi base pressure.

One of the guys who recently warned me about the DW pumps was Jeff at Perrin. If that matters any. I just hear quality issues over and over and over.... though I've not had any myself. Lol.

Like I said though.... I've not had any problems and hope not to on pump gas torco mix @ ~ 30 psi.

I just got an EFT 7163 stock location. I have a closed deck block with over sized vales and BC stage three cams being built now. Should end up between 500 and 550. No build thread.
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Old 08-14-2018, 11:59 PM   #204
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the way I see it, in order of complexity:
simplest - 1 pump hardwired and in oe hanger
simpler - 2 pumps
less simple - 2 pumps in oe style hanger
least simple - surge tank setup

no build thread but I can take pics for you guys and obviously I'll report on what ends up happening
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Old 08-15-2018, 12:09 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by VladiWrX View Post
the way I see it, in order of complexity:
simplest - 1 pump hardwired and in oe hanger
simpler - 2 pumps
less simple - 2 pumps in oe style hanger
least simple - surge tank setup


no build thread but I can take pics for you guys and obviously I'll report on what ends up happening
Agree with the above.

That said - would you go for two pumps with a flatter efficiency range and an excellent reputation for quality or would you chance it with a DW 3 or 400?
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Old 08-15-2018, 12:26 AM   #206
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I would search for dw300 failures and read the threads. The ones I've found were questionable and there were few. Any company's pumps are going to have some failures, and there will always be people who are fanboys of a brand for some reason or another. My choices for the pressure and flow with a single pump were the newest Walbro and the DW400. Both are ethanol safe and both have excellent specs, so long as they meet them. The walbros have several counterfeits, I've yet to see one Deatschwerks copy that looked even close. Unless you buy from a well known vendor it's a risky buy.

We also need to take into account some failures will be from the crappy fakes, and many people don't prove which they purchased on the forums, we have to take their word. We also never really know if they or their shop installed it incorrectly and are too embarrassed to admit, lol. Some people will throw a company under the bus to keep from admitting their fault, not like those companies have the resources to verify every complaint on the forums.

Obviously two 044 pumps in tank would be plenty, going by specs alone. They are about 60mm OD each, about 12mm larger than the DW400, so the mounting would need to be beefy. If I had to run two in tank pumps, two DW300 or two genuine / non knockoff 044 pumps would seem like a safe bet. Two walbro 450 pumps would seem a little excessive, and you would need to have a lot of line and regulator to allow a lot of bypassing when all of their flow wasn't being used. This is just going on specs though, and I haven't seen any dispute over the validity of the DW specs. Either way, in my opinion the in tank pumps need their body electrically isolated from the hanger metal. The hanger isn't grounded from the factory (at least on the 93-07 imprezas) and you don't want any electrolysis screwing with the internals of the pump(s) when running more conductive ethanol fuels.
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Old 08-15-2018, 03:50 AM   #207
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Yes there will be the occasional failure with any pump, no one has 0% failure rates in any industry not even Aerospace! Every component has a given lifespan at a give load and duty cycle.

I do agree with the previous post 2 DW300 pumps in factory hanger, one controlled by ecu speed control other hardwired is the easiest and safest way, or for longest lifecycle would be to run an aftermarket speed controller, for both pumps, will add about 300$ for Aeromotive controller but allows you to have pumps run as efficiently as possible while providing the proper flow control needed for your particular setup and fuel demands. I know money is always a biproduct in any build but I tell people time and time again, is it worth risking loosing an engine over a couple hundred dollar investment, the answer should always be no!

If I recal you already have the injectors 1700cc should pick up another dw300 pump and a speed controller then get the car tuned and you won’t have to look back. I have used probably 3 dozen dw300 pumps since they came out and not had a single one fail as far as I know of, knock on wood so I continue to use them because it my preference and go to for pumps. My alternative is Aeromotive but hard to justify the price most of the time.

Dw injectors are hit and miss for a tuners perspective on their preference. I ran them for a short period of time on my car with AP2 with no issues but switched to ID which do work better with stock ecu. I used them on a 280z with a mega squirt setup and loved them but had lots of control being a stand-alone ems.

Oh and make sure you add a ground strap to you fuel pump hanger and use something that will absorb vibrations from metal to metal contact when hose clamping pumps onto hanger, rubber radiator hose, should last 5 yrs or more, when I dig into my take in next couple months I will post some pictures of how I do it for most cars, but radiator hose looked good after 4 yrs in e85 last time I was in there to change filter bag.

Last edited by iamturbo; 08-15-2018 at 03:56 AM. Reason: Add something
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Old 08-15-2018, 08:25 AM   #208
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I picked up a AEM 400 along with the 034motorsports surge tank. (& a speed controller)

Been to busy with summertime to install it (and turn up the boost ), but, it is a fairly compact setup. It should fit in the corner of the trunk pretty well.
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Old 08-15-2018, 10:07 PM   #209
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I picked up a AEM 400 along with the 034motorsports surge tank. (& a speed controller)

Been to busy with summertime to install it (and turn up the boost ), but, it is a fairly compact setup. It should fit in the corner of the trunk pretty well.
Did you go with the aeromotive controller or something else?
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Old 08-16-2018, 09:01 AM   #210
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Did you go with the aeromotive controller or something else?
I have a DCCDFuel pro I was going to try out.
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Old 08-18-2018, 03:00 PM   #211
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Got a set of these to properly hardwire the OE hanger:
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Old 08-19-2018, 01:20 PM   #212
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I was considering those, but worried about fumes escaping around the threads. The company states gasket dressing can be used for tanks that have to hold pressure or vacuum. Maybe you can just put sealant on the section of threads between the spacers, so it doesn't affect conductivity.
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Old 08-24-2018, 11:41 AM   #213
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Hmm interesting. I have a friend that uses them on a built/turbo Miata with Flex-Fuel and no issues so far with them.
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Old 08-24-2018, 08:53 PM   #214
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I installed my EFI hardware connectors (P/N 866-030) in June, zero issues. I used Permatex #85420 gasket dressing & Sealant and shrink tubing capable of submersion in fuel. (Great company to work with.. quick shipping no issues at all)

As far as fueling goes... I am currently running one F90000267 Walbro, hardwired (using stock FPC to fire a Bosch BMF relay), 0/1 GA cable from battery to trunk (no not just for the pump... for a BMF Audio amp and the pump ;-).

I am running E85, ID2000's, stock fuel lines up to engine bay then Aeroquip -6 AN hose, Fore FPR and post filter. I am making 525 at wheels. My differential fuel pressure is dropping 8psi from 5500RPM to redline (7500) with an AFR of 12/1.

See my Nutritional Facts image below for more detail about my build...

I build my own engines, install all mods & tune myself with COBB Accesstuner. I am running a flex fuel tune. The pump looses pressure but I compensate by using COBB fuel pressure differential compensation Custom Feature.

I had been running a JMS Powermax voltage amplifier which provided 14.5V regulated at cruise and 18V at a set boost level. With the voltage amp in line I did not loose pressure on top end but I fried the pumps (5 of them)... The last pump fried just running 14.5V regulated (no voltage increase at boost).

JMS checked my amp and found no issues (great customer service, they sent me a brand new one anyway). I am reluctant to install it however... am concerned that even at 14.5V regulated supply the pump is working too hard under easy cruise and this is what is frying them.

Here are a couple photos of my bulkhead power connectors installed and my build's Nutritional Facts .





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Old 08-24-2018, 11:12 PM   #215
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What's my recomended daily allowance of badassSubaru?
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Old 08-24-2018, 11:13 PM   #216
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You look a little obese...... Try cutting back on audio intake.
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Old 08-25-2018, 12:02 AM   #217
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I like the polk components, ran them in two different cars since the db components came out.

Could the oem fuel line be causing a lot of bypass and possible overheating of the pump? How much current is it drawing at cruise and under high boost levels?

I plan on running a voltage booster as well, too bad there isn't a company who makes a voltage booster and speed control combined. At least I haven't found one yet. All it needs to be is a high current high frequency switching power supply with an interface for map sensor or ecu to control the ramp.
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Old 08-25-2018, 12:19 AM   #218
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What's my recomended daily allowance of badassSubaru?
Depends on disposable income!
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Old 08-25-2018, 12:26 AM   #219
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I like the polk components, ran them in two different cars since the db components came out.

Could the oem fuel line be causing a lot of bypass and possible overheating of the pump? How much current is it drawing at cruise and under high boost levels?

I plan on running a voltage booster as well, too bad there isn't a company who makes a voltage booster and speed control combined. At least I haven't found one yet. All it needs to be is a high current high frequency switching power supply with an interface for map sensor or ecu to control the ramp.
I have been working with Tony Palo, T1 Race Development / Injector Dynamics to solve the problem. Tony said stock lines are not an issue!

I also wish someone made a voltage reducer / amplifier!
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Old 08-25-2018, 12:27 AM   #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2slofouru View Post
I like the polk components, ran them in two different cars since the db components came out.

Could the oem fuel line be causing a lot of bypass and possible overheating of the pump? How much current is it drawing at cruise and under high boost levels?

I plan on running a voltage booster as well, too bad there isn't a company who makes a voltage booster and speed control combined. At least I haven't found one yet. All it needs to be is a high current high frequency switching power supply with an interface for map sensor or ecu to control the ramp.
I haven't checked current draw, that is a good idea
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Old 08-25-2018, 12:29 AM   #221
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You look a little obese...... Try cutting back on audio intake.
I'll just do more sit-ups
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Old 08-28-2018, 03:02 AM   #222
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Thanks for sharing and the pics, that's really helpful.

Right now I'm tuning the ID1700's on the 07 and boy are they a pain to idle on pump gas.
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Old 08-28-2018, 06:30 AM   #223
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Ha, yes it is a challenge. I target 13.7 to 1 AFR on idle (Closed loop fueling target compensation tables A&B)
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Old 08-28-2018, 06:36 AM   #224
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Ha, yes it is a challenge. I target 13.7 to 1 AFR on idle (Closed loop fueling target compensation tables A&B)
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Old 08-28-2018, 12:27 PM   #225
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Hmm ok good to know, I'll try again today. I had them pretty smooth at 13.3:1 with CL comps, any leaner and the car got noticeably rougher. What rpm are you targeting? I'm currently at 1000rpm 13.3:1 and 23* timing. It's pretty good, but struggling with when you lift throttle and it settles down, it usually kicks into open loop, stays super rich for a few seconds, and only then kicks into CL and smoothens out. MAF is scaled, but it's a giant 85mm MAF so resolution aint great. I think going speed density would probably be a good idea at this point. FPR set to 45psi base
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