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Old 06-20-2016, 07:06 PM   #1
HumanBoost
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Question Subaru EZ36 (3.6L) build options in USA?

Hi Nasioc community,

I want to twin turbocharge an EZ36 motor, but am not sure which engine builder or engine parts upgrades to choose given it's not a common build. This is a custom car with rear wheel drive and a manual transmission where I would do all fab work.

Car Curb Weight: 2,960 lbs
Power Goal: 380-385 wheel horse power (mustang dyno)
Subaru EZ36 Motor Specs: 10.5:1 Compression, 3.6 Liter, 90mm bore & 91mm stroke, Dual AVCS
Turbos: dual Garrett GT2854r's with custom billet compressor wheels (+20whp)

After searching online, the consensus is the crankshaft is too weak to handle power reliably beyond 400whp and stock compression is too high to boost to "fun" levels on pump fuel.

So, instead of reaching the power goal on E85 fuel, would dropping in forged-light weight 9.5:1 compression pistons be enough to reach 385whp on 93 octane pump gas and still keep the car reliable? ( This includes cnc-rehoning cylinders and applying wpc metal treatment to entire bottom end, and using stronger headgaskets with ARP head studs + arp rod bolts, etc. Connecting Rods & Crankshaft would be oem with wpc metal treatment applied.)

Lastly, please feel free to share any other parts combo suggestions that you would use for a nice wide power band on this smooth Revving Subaru EZ36 motor. ***128512;
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Last edited by HumanBoost; 06-20-2016 at 07:11 PM.
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Old 06-20-2016, 07:40 PM   #2
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Budget?
Vehicle it's gong into?
And are you outside of the country? Because I seen you put USA?
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Old 06-20-2016, 08:30 PM   #3
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outfront has done some ez stuff, not sure who else has knowledge stateside.
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Old 06-20-2016, 10:05 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BATmoWAGON View Post
Budget?
Vehicle it's gong into?
And are you outside of the country? Because I seen you put USA?
Budget = flexible, but not $3,000-for-a-new-crankshaft-flexible. ***65533;***65533;
Vehicle = old p0rsche (rear wheel drive, no driveshaft) So, it should produce higher wheel power because there is less frictional drag-loss compared to an All-Wheel-Drive system.
Location = USA. So, 100% Murica!

I emailed OutFront Motorsports and they never responded, so that is part of the reason I'm posting here. The other reason is I'm a fan of the Nasioc community and I value "ya'll"'s technical input on this built motor topic given everyone's wealth of experience here ***65533;***65533;.

Last edited by HumanBoost; 06-27-2016 at 01:22 AM.
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Old 06-21-2016, 12:25 AM   #5
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42 Autosport has been doing some H6 stuff I believe.
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Old 06-21-2016, 01:02 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HumanBoost View Post
Budget = flexible, but not $3,500-for-a-new-crankshaft-flexible. ***65533;***65533;
Vehicle = old p0rsche (rear wheel drive, no driveshaft) So, it should produce higher wheel power because there is no AWD drivetrain-based mechanical drag loss and no driveshaft rotating mass.
Location = USA. So, 100% Murica!

I emailed OutFront Motorsports and they never responded, so that is part of the reason I'm posting here. The other reason is I'm a fan of the Nasioc community and I value "ya'll"'s technical input on this built motor topic given everyone's wealth of experience here ***65533;***65533;.
The rods are the first weak link, we make custom rods that allow you to use the wider sti bearings, stock length H beams, ARP 2000 bolts (in stock), we have done plenty of work with these motors, crank cannot handle 8 psi for too long until it breaks. no more real estate to make the crank stronger unless you go to a custom crank, we even have closed deck blocks for these and we just made a new batch of the EZ36 head studs, in stock. Sorry we did not get your email, you can email for info,

John
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Old 06-22-2016, 02:32 AM   #7
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Hi John,

I appreciate your reply and sent you a private message here as well.

Given your wealth of experience, is it only intake manifold pressure (psi) that determine's the EZ36's crankshaft longevity or is it the actual wheel-power/torque produced by the motor? The reason I ask is because it's my understanding that different sized turbochargers produce different power at the same boost (psi) level. Anyone, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Does Outfront Motorsports offer any short-block build packages like IAG's stage 1,2,3, etc engine blocks? If yes, what are the specs of each stage build (static compression ratio, swept displacement, and max rpm, etc.)?

I just want to know the options before making a purchase decision. Thanks.
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Old 06-22-2016, 07:12 AM   #8
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theres a turbo EZ36 down in AUS with a completely stock motor running 8psi with a Garett GTX3576R pushing 360-370 wheel hp on E85 fuel. has been for almost a year now. built by AM AUTO. this is a good comparison for you to work from. but seeing how you are going twin-turbo and no E85 fuel, i think you will have alot of difficulties ahead. should be interesting though, i look forward to this build. hope you will document it for us

mighty car mods Super Gramps. check out the entire build, its worth it. everything they have done to it is available in the USA.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...lSpvJvEJtCIdgl

even they say to not push any higher without a built motor. but as it stands, the motor is still going strong, and still pulling 11s passes. pretty good for a full interior daily driven legacy wagon. i could only imagine the capabilities of a built EZ36 pushing real boost. ive seen some crazy EZ30's... but no 36's.



Quote:
Originally Posted by outfrontmotorsports View Post
we even have closed deck blocks for these
thats just awesome! really glad to hear about this. now just start making some rods and we'll be all set pistons are easy to find.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HumanBoost View Post
Does Outfront Motorsports offer any short-block build packages.
yes i too would like to know if a built EZ36 shortblock is available.

Last edited by Titter; 06-22-2016 at 07:40 AM.
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Old 06-23-2016, 09:58 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Titter View Post
theres a turbo EZ36 down in AUS with a completely stock motor running 8psi with a Garett GTX3576R pushing 360-370 wheel hp on E85 fuel...you are going twin-turbo and no E85 fuel, i think you will have alot of difficulties ahead...mighty car mods Super Gramps...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...lSpvJvEJtCIdgl
even they say to not push any higher without a built motor. but as it stands, the motor is still going strong, and still pulling 11s passes...imagine the capabilities of a built EZ36 pushing real boost.
I only started this thread after watching all MCM supergramps episodes and reading every EZ36 based forum thread I could find.

Lowering static compression enables turbocharged motors to use more boost (psi) on pump gas, thereby making more wheel power on pump gas compared to the previous higher static engine compression.

So, I'm asking if the same *SAFE* max power that was attained on the stock EZ36 motor (using 85% ethanol fuel + "low boost"), can be achieved with lower static engine compression (9.5:1 instead of EZ36's 10.5:1) using 93 octane pump gas and slightly higher boost + more optimal ignition timing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Titter View Post
...now just start making some rods and we'll be all set ...
Outfront Motorsports said his company already makes stronger connecting rods for the EZ36 in his previous post...

I'll happily share my build progress once I know which parts, build options, and prices are available. Outfront Motorsports is most likely busy, hence no response yet. They are a business operating in the real world afterall. Cheers for everyone's input so far. ^_^

Last edited by HumanBoost; 06-27-2016 at 02:15 AM.
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Old 06-24-2016, 08:13 PM   #10
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Default Subaru EZ36 (3.6L) build options in USA?

you could go old school and use de-compression plates.

but your concerns are real. the fueling will be the main issue trying to reach 380whp. 93 oct wont get you there on 8psi. but the lower compression might balance it out allowing higher boost. but youre still venturing into unknown territory, so i dunno if anyone has a real answer to your question.

gl bud! looking forward to your progress.

Last edited by Titter; 06-24-2016 at 09:17 PM.
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Old 06-27-2016, 01:00 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Titter View Post
...your concerns are real. the fueling will be the main issue trying to reach 380whp...but the lower compression might balance it out allowing higher boost...youre still venturing into unknown territory, so i dunno if anyone has a real answer to your question...
So, lets try using a math-based engine simulator to get closer to a "real" answer, shall we? At the very least, this will help us predict power + torque curves and how much we can push the motor before detonation at various boost and static compression levels.

EZ36D Knowns
Displacement: 3629 cc
Bore: 92 mm
Stroke: 91 mm
Compression: 10.5:1
Power: 260 PS (191 kW; 256 hp) at 6000 rpm
Torque: 335 Nm (34 kgm; 247 lbft) at 4400 rpm


If you Nasioc'ers help me fill in the following data about the EZ36D motor, I'll run any Dyno simulation you want and share the results with everyone:

EZ36D Unknowns

Center to Center Connecting Rod Length = ?
Valve Diameter (intake and exhaust) = ?
Avg Port Diameter (intake and exhaust) = ?
Port Length = ?
Flow Table (intake and exhaust) that shows Intake Flow for x inches water pressure = ?
example: --> Valve Lift (inches) = how much CFM?

Camshaft Profiles
Centerline, deg (intake[ATDC] and Exhaust[BTDC])
Duration @ 0.050 * (intake * exhaust)
Open @ 0.050 * (intake BTDC) & (Exhaust BBDC)
Close @ 0.050 * (inake ABDC) & (Exhaust ATDC)
Max Lobe Lift, in (intake & Exhaust)
Actal Valve Lash, in (intake & Exhaust)
Designed Valve Lash (intake & Exhaust)
Rocker Arm Ratio (intake & Exhaust)
Lifter (profile) Type (intake & Exhaust)
Asymmetry, deg (intake & Exhaust)
Gross Valve Lift, in (intake & Exhaust)
Dewll Over Nose (intake & Exhaust)
Duration @ 0.200* (intake & Exhaust)

Overall Cam Specs
EZ36D engine's Total Cam Advance (for example "0.5 Retard" etc.) is?
Lobe Separation, cam deg?
Lift for Rating Events?

Valve Train Dynamics (intake and Exhaust sides)
Valve Train Type? (for example: direct acting OHC or PushRod and Rocker Arm, etc...)
Eff Valve Mass, gms?
Eff Rckr Arm Stffnss, lb/in?
Eff Lifter MAss, gms?
Eff Lifter Stiffness, lb/in
Spring Rate, lb/in
Seated Spring Force, lbs

Variable Valve Timing (intake & Exhaust sides)
Centerline, deg ATDC (final Value, Starting Value, Change)
Duration @ .050 * (final Value, Starting Value, Change)
Open @ 0.50 * (final Value, Starting Value, Change)
Close @ 0.50 * (final Value, Starting Value, Change)
Max Lobe Lift, in (final Value, Starting Value, Change)
Gross Valve Lift, in (final Value, Starting Value, Change)

General VVT Specs
(none OR vary-cam-advance-only OR use-intake-specs-above OR use-all-specs-above)
RPM to Change to Final Values?
Total Cam Advance, deg?
Lobe Separation, cam deg?

Last edited by HumanBoost; 06-27-2016 at 02:20 AM.
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Old 06-27-2016, 03:50 AM   #12
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the ez30 uses a 131.5mm connecting rod and has the same deck height as the 36, so you can calculate some things from there. i'll run the numbers in the next post.

the valves:

Head Diameter - 35.00mm
Stem Diameter - 5.45mm
Length - 99.8mm

The 36 only has about 2mm more bore than the ez30. almost all the extra displacement comes from the increase in stroke.
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Old 06-27-2016, 04:01 AM   #13
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stroke of ez30: 80mm

stroke of ez36: 91mm

same deck height makes calculating the rod:stroke ratio easy, UNLESS the wrist pin is in a different location on the pistons. I highly doubt it.

ez30 rod length: 131.5mm
ez36 rod length: 125mm

rod:stroke ratio's:

ez30 is 131.5/80=1.64
ez36 is 125/91=1.37 TERRIBLE

bore is <3mm difference iirc.


Let's not kid ourselves, the 36 was a bandaid solution to a lack of low down power/torque. It uses asymmetrical rods for god's sake.

An OEM ej207 bottom end will make just as much power, albeit with a lot more lag. The 36 is an engine for low-down torque, nothing else. You can't even throw an ez30 crank in for a bigger-bore ez30 like is done with the destroke ej25 as the way the pumps etc are run off the crank is completely different. Building an ez36 is a fool's errand.

The ez30 however, is an absolute monster. You have off the shelf pistons, rods, bearings, valves, valvesprings and head studs. The factory cams are already monsters. Built right, it is more than capable of a reliable 8000rpm 600whp, if not more. It was originally an aircraft engine that FHI converted for car use IIRC.

The EG33 is also an absolute beast.


A post from another forum:

Quote:
As for the pork chop rods. Theyre called asymetrical rods, popular on massively stroked 1970's design diesel blocks in america like the new ford whateveritisFtruck. They are your single greatest hindrance. Do you understand rod:stroke ratios at all? Ask paul to explain to you why the ez36 is the worst possible engine you could hope to turbocharge for decent power whilst retaining 3.6L. Sleeve it, destroke it to 2.8 to fix the massive flaw they have so it revs, make the heads work at 9000 rpm using a new custom cam. But not only the rod:stroke ratio being ridiculous, the fact that the piston skirts are a huge compromise on the 36, the rod big end and crank rotation is cause for some serious thoughts about the strength of the whole operation during the compression stroke top and ignition stroke bottom, the dwell times are nuts. Why subject an already stressed engine to such silly G forces. Those asymetrical rods suit a 4000rpm capped 8L diesel well. Not an 8000rpm turbo 3.6L petrol engine. Unless you've discovered unobtanium thats strong enough?

If you want to spend bucklet loads of cash on doing it wrong, at least consider the right way and take some guidance from it. It pains me to know someone in the world actually things the ez36 is in any way shape or form an upgrade. For a big single turbo, thats very very close to the heads on a serious thick manifold then AVCS exhaust is a small gain in spool time, (at a loss of torque off boost, the reason you use a h6 in the first place)

So right now you have thinner bores, an even worse rod to stroke ratio, a certainly unknown crank, a 3.6L displacement you are going to lose 600cc of to make it strong enough to bother turboing properly (you could of started with an ez30r for the same result). Or 800cc of if you want to make it rev properly. And you lose probably the greatest thing in the EZ30r which is the intake AVLS which is arguably the greatest tuning tool in the whole engine. You suddenly have the ability to dynamically (well...high or low) control air intake speed based on RPM which is amazing, probably the reason they dont have TGV's and funky weird **** going on for low rpm and idle emissions and are a near silent engine (fuel atomisation is so good, plus mechanical losses through full stroke valve lift is avoided) . The single best heads subaru have ever made those ez30r heads. I dare say the exhaust AVCS was as much for emissions control as it was any sort of power benefit on a NA engine (near none) considering the big exhaust retard. Oh I didnt mention, now your oil pump flows less on the 36r than the 30r model. They are not interchangeable.

Either way the thread is about turboing a 3L. Do it, thoroughly awesome engine with every possible feature for a turbo car you want and none of the drawbacks, with huge potential.

Last edited by vicious_fishes; 06-29-2016 at 03:13 AM.
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Old 07-01-2016, 03:55 PM   #14
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vicious_fishes,

Thank you for your helpful reply. You've convinced me to stick with the EZ30 engine (iAVCS + iAVLS model) . Since this car will be daily driven, I thought a wide torque curve would be best, hence me choosing Garrett GT2554r twin turbos for this simulation. Unfortunately, something is not right in my settings or this motor just sucks for any usable torque below 3,800 rpm. (I modified the settings from an old Porsche flat 6 3.4L motor so please ignore the "Porsche 3.4L" text in the files.)

Can you guys please point out any input errors and help me fill in the rest of the info? :



I deliberately dropped static compression by 1 point just to see how much more boost could be run on 93 octane pump fuel. Original EZ30 Compression = 10.7:1













Last edited by HumanBoost; 07-01-2016 at 04:02 PM.
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Old 07-01-2016, 04:00 PM   #15
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Garrett GT2554r Turbo specs



Dyno Simulation Calc Setup


Dyno Simulation Results


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Old 07-01-2016, 07:21 PM   #16
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Sub'd I would love to see where this goes. I've seen supergramps build log from MCM and was considering of attempting it in my 13' WRX . Keep the info coming !!!!
-Gus
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Old 07-01-2016, 10:18 PM   #17
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I would love to see the developments of the Suby boxer4 be translated into a boxer6 as a powerplant, and not just as a one-off build. It would be great to have a standard reliable one-up to the Porsche boxer6
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Old 07-03-2016, 04:20 PM   #18
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While waiting for a response to my previous technical question, you guys got me wondering...

Given that my old toyota 2JZ-GE motor handled more than double the stock power with a thicker headgasket, turbo kit, and arp head studs, maybe Titter's "de-compression plates" idea can work for an EZ30 motor with a low power output goal (390 wheel HP max)?

I understand a 3-layer-thicker headgasket (decompression plate) affects quench, but with the EZ30's Variable Valve Timing and Lift control, could this offset any of the thicker-HeadGasket-negatives for a low-power output goal (390whp) on pump gas?

The lower static compression caused by using a thicker headgasket on my old 2JZ car never gave me detonation problems and could consistently run more boost on pump fuel, thus making more power reliably. I used an AEM EMS stand alone engine management system, so I had total fuel and ignition timing control, etc.

Plus, not having to upgrade pistons + rods on the EZ30's bottom end would mean I could get this car running sooner. Whatcha guys (and gals) think?

Last edited by HumanBoost; 07-03-2016 at 04:27 PM.
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Old 07-06-2016, 01:20 PM   #19
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Default Subaru EZ36 (3.6L) build options in USA?

its not my idea. its what racecars used to do decades ago. you still use head gaskets... 2 of them actually. one on either side of the decompression plate. the plate is made of a strong metal which can change depending on the application, and can be a few millimeters thick.

this is old school racecar stuff. like a 19ft fuel line...

Last edited by Titter; 07-06-2016 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 07-19-2016, 02:31 AM   #20
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HumanBoost, the motors can make 230awhp NA through an automatic: http://legacygt.com/forums/showthrea...st-219254.html

This means they'll dyno more through a RWD manual transmission. To hit 385awhp you need 67% more airflow, which can be had with 10 psi of boost (assuming an optimized setup with a good sized turbo, IC, etc.). Less with E85. I'd think this would be do-able on a stock motor with careful tuning, but I've never tried it. Raptor runs 7.5 psi on their non-intercooled 3.6 supercharger kits, and I've heard of people running 11 psi with an intercooler. Don't take my word for it though.

Supergramps made 360whp on 8 psi and E85.

This is the first I've heard of EZ36D cranks failing though. Has anyone here experienced this? I'd never heard of a factory forged crank failing at such lower power levels, but this is Subaru we're talking about... If the failure is related to the (short) packaging requirements of EZs, I'd think the EZ30s would have similarly low limits?

The EZ36D headgaskets are metal, and only about 0.025" thick. I wouldn't worry about them failing at low boost levels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicious_fishes View Post
ez36 rod length: 125mm
ez36 is 125/91=1.37 TERRIBLE
What is your source on that rod length? I cannot seem to find it anywhere. My EZ36D bores look great at 68k miles; I'd expect to see noticeable wear if the rod/stroke ratio was 1.37. Moving the wrist pin towards the head is common on stroked motors. Increasing deck height is less common.

Quote:
As for the pork chop rods. Theyre called asymetrical rods, popular on massively stroked 1970's design diesel blocks in america like the new ford whateveritisFtruck. They are your single greatest hindrance.
Tell that to FA20s? They use the same style of asymmetric rod. Its not like we're talking about an offset crankshaft or non-straight rods here.

Here are some pics. The rods do look puny, but they are straight: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...&postcount=243

Last edited by Grant; 07-19-2016 at 02:44 AM.
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Old 07-19-2016, 01:34 PM   #21
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I talked to Jeremy at Outfront, and he confirmed the stock rods are the problem. He said the crank was fine; not sure to what boost level.
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Old 07-19-2016, 03:04 PM   #22
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This is Merica, stick an LS in it and be done
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Old 07-20-2016, 04:47 AM   #23
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humanboost - forget your simulations dude, i swapped an ez30d into my GD and it was like driving a V8 around. Considering most v8's are about 1.5x the weight of my car and a 5.0L v8 is *nearly* 1.5x the displacement of the ez30, this makes sense.

Believe me, lack of torque is NOT a problem. I went and bought the tall ratio legacy 6 speed as with my 5 speed i was cruising around in 5th gear in 50 zones.


Yes, you can boost the ez36, but only mildly. Anything more than 350-400whp at absolute max with ethanol is ticking time bomb IMO, and a stock ej207 bottom end can do that. An ez30 meanwhile will do 400whp completely unopened without even breaking a sweat, just make sure you use ethanol as the stock compression ratio is 10.7.

Last edited by vicious_fishes; 07-20-2016 at 04:53 AM.
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Old 07-20-2016, 04:12 PM   #24
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Why do you say EZ36D rods are significantly weaker than EZ30 rods? Are they thinner? Typically a longer stroke will support more power, because more crankshaft torque is generated for the same amount of compressive force. I don't think rod ratio directly affects rod strength, though it clearly influences piston side loading.
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Old 07-20-2016, 10:53 PM   #25
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worse rod ratio = more g's on the assembly = break stuff faster.
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