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Old 02-01-2021, 10:10 PM   #1
IDriveFords
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Default fresh engine build - won't start

So I got my engine back from the machine shop and finally got everything back together and I cannot get this thing to start and I have a feeling it's something pretty silly. It should be mentioned this car started prior to the engine build it just ran like ***** due to bent rods. It currently has no CELs or stored codes and I've checked every plug imaginable and just can't figure it out. Here is a mod list if it helps:

- Manley Turbo Tuff Rods/Pistons
- Bored .5 over (100mm)
- ACL Bearings
- Stock 2019 Crank (Nitrated)
- Stock Heads
- IAG Oil pickup
- IAG Oil Pan
- IAG Windage Tray
- IAG Air/Oil Separator
- 3mm intake spacers
- Cobb Stage 1 Intake
- Secondary Air Pump Delete
- Cyl 4 Cooling Mod

No leaks, great compression, timing has been verified multiple times, no codes... I just think I'm missing something silly. Originally the MAF was throwing error codes but I replaced it and the codes have not come back. I was told by my builder it should start with a base map and then I will need to take it and have it tuned. Is there any silly sensor or something that may not throw a code but would prevent startup? Any suggestions are greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

-Rob-
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Old 02-02-2021, 07:40 AM   #2
K3rm1tth3fr0g
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What do you mean by doesn't start? Does it crank? do you hear the pump making fuel pressure?

Last edited by K3rm1tth3fr0g; 02-02-2021 at 08:37 AM.
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Old 02-02-2021, 09:11 AM   #3
IDriveFords
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It does crank and you can hear the pump... I was thinking maybe one of the cam sensors but I would imagine those would throw a code? I did cut of the Barometric Pressure sensor off the pump and wrapped it in electrical tape but I wouldn't think that should matter as I was very careful when I removed it from the pump it was attached to and there are no codes stored. I guess it could be a weak battery but I trickle charged it overnight and it seems to have plenty of "go power"... I guess what I'm really asking is are there any known engine sensors that could be causing a fault and not giving any known codes?
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Old 02-02-2021, 09:48 AM   #4
subydude
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It needs to actually run before it'll throw codes for the most part.

I'd check the basics, spark, fuel, air. Make sure the coil packs are plugged in and in the proper location, make sure you have good fuel pressure either with a mechanical gauge or some other sensor, and make sure the MAF or other air sensors are all plugged in.

After that I'd double check the cam sensors are plugged in along with the crank sensor.

We don't know what year the car is either or what tuning software you're using.
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Old 02-02-2021, 10:04 AM   #5
IDriveFords
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It's a 2019 using a Cobb Accessport with a base map tune for now. It should be mentioned the previous engine bent rods due to sucking up water but once it got all the watery oil flushed out it actually ran albeit like completely crap due to bent rods... but it would just sit there and idle and never stall. I cleaned the crap out of the AVCS sensors and the block/heads were all re-worked at the machine shop. The MAF was completely shot due to water as well. My buddy keeps saying one of the added mods is causing it but the only thing I can even begin to think that would affect startup is removing that air pump system. I'll have to wait till the weekend but I will pull the plugs again and verify... just to be clear coils aren't specific to any cylinder correct? Probably a stupid question but on my BMW they all had to be coded to the ECU but I'm 99% sure Subaru does not do that silliness.

Thanks

-Rob-
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Old 02-02-2021, 12:42 PM   #6
cboggess
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Couple of things to check.

Obviously check the crank sensor to see it's plugged in.
Check the fuel lines at the firewall. Easy to reverse them (done it myself).
If EVERYTHING checks out mechanically then check the trigger teeth on the crank snout. We had an instance here years ago where a tooth was broken off in disassembly and kept it from starting.
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Old 02-02-2021, 01:33 PM   #7
IDriveFords
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Unless I've completely lost it the crank sensor is definitely plugged in and the fuel lines are in the right spot as I took a picture before I pulled them and labeled them from Top to bottom. If you mean the teeth behind the crank pulley that was all verified when we checked timing and at least prior to the motor going back in they were all in tact... Also all the timing marks on the cam pulleys seem to line up as expected I can even get the belt itself to line up with installation marks.

Thanks,

-Rob-

Last edited by IDriveFords; 02-02-2021 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 02-02-2021, 01:35 PM   #8
junebugfareast
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From experience - check all of your engine grounds and vacuum line routing.
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Old 02-02-2021, 01:46 PM   #9
subydude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IDriveFords View Post
It's a 2019 using a Cobb Accessport with a base map tune for now. It should be mentioned the previous engine bent rods due to sucking up water but once it got all the watery oil flushed out it actually ran albeit like completely crap due to bent rods... but it would just sit there and idle and never stall. I cleaned the crap out of the AVCS sensors and the block/heads were all re-worked at the machine shop. The MAF was completely shot due to water as well. My buddy keeps saying one of the added mods is causing it but the only thing I can even begin to think that would affect startup is removing that air pump system. I'll have to wait till the weekend but I will pull the plugs again and verify... just to be clear coils aren't specific to any cylinder correct? Probably a stupid question but on my BMW they all had to be coded to the ECU but I'm 99% sure Subaru does not do that silliness.

Thanks

-Rob-
Coil packs aren't specific to the car, but the plugs that go into the coil packs are specific and can be switched. It's usually the black plugs to the back coil packs and the white ones to the front.

As long as things are plugged in otherwise I'd go through the other steps of verifying spark/fuel/air.
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Old 02-02-2021, 02:13 PM   #10
IDriveFords
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So there is a ground strap on the passenger side that my buddy said he swears it was grounded to the heat shield. If it helps there is one on the driver side as well that I know for a fact is grounded to the AVCS module (bottom of engine). It is slightly possible the one on the passenger side is wrong but I really can't imagine it would make that big of a difference. I will verify the plugs are plugged into the right coils but if memory serves me I hooked all that back up with the engine out of the car and it was really hard to cross those wires albeit I'm sure it's possible. I'll have to wait till the weekend but my buddy is coming back over with some more tools to try and troubleshoot... I really hope it's something silly and greatly appreciate all the suggestions/help.
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Old 02-02-2021, 04:44 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IDriveFords View Post
So there is a ground strap on the passenger side that my buddy said he swears it was grounded to the heat shield. If it helps there is one on the driver side as well that I know for a fact is grounded to the AVCS module (bottom of engine). It is slightly possible the one on the passenger side is wrong but I really can't imagine it would make that big of a difference. I will verify the plugs are plugged into the right coils but if memory serves me I hooked all that back up with the engine out of the car and it was really hard to cross those wires albeit I'm sure it's possible. I'll have to wait till the weekend but my buddy is coming back over with some more tools to try and troubleshoot... I really hope it's something silly and greatly appreciate all the suggestions/help.
The main grounds that should be worried about are the one the runs from the battery to the top drivers trans bolt and the on on the TGV bolt on the front of the manifold passenger side.

I misplaced the ground on the manifold and put it a bolt higher (manifold to tgv instead of tgv to block where its supposed to be) and the starter clicked, I know you said it was cranking but just a thought
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Old 02-02-2021, 07:31 PM   #12
Pitcrew91
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A decent option, if available, entice a local subaru gearhead with beer to assist.
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Old 02-03-2021, 11:45 AM   #13
IDriveFords
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lol... good plan! I don't think I'll get many volunteers though as I just got off quarantine for having the Rona but I do live in the Hampton Roads area. Not really a beer guy either but I do have an extensive bourbon stash

My buddy is bringing me some better diag equipment this weekend so I can run through it a bit more thoroughly and go from there... I still think it's something very silly. I pulled the battery today to take it and have it tested just in case but it seems to be putting out plenty of cranking power.
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Old 02-07-2021, 08:38 AM   #14
IDriveFords
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So for those who care I *think* I have found the issue. I had the machine shop do the timing because I wanted this thing to be turn-key when I got it back together (so much for that) and it appears they were off just a tooth which was not letting it fire. Are these motors really that sensitive that one tooth off it wont even fire?

On a side note I had it set right and proved it would fire but then I did something very stupid I don't want to talk about which caused the belt to slip meaning I have to do the timing all over again...
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Old 02-07-2021, 12:04 PM   #15
IDriveFords
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Soo... Tore it all back down took the belt off aligned everything perfectly, got the belt back on all the marks lined up on the belt as well as the pulleys turned the engine by hand twice... still off by a tooth! Am I missing something here? Is it possible my brand new belt is stretched?
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Old 02-07-2021, 12:27 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IDriveFords View Post
Soo... Tore it all back down took the belt off aligned everything perfectly, got the belt back on all the marks lined up on the belt as well as the pulleys turned the engine by hand twice... still off by a tooth! Am I missing something here? Is it possible my brand new belt is stretched?
They don't tend to line up perfect after you turn them over the hash marks at the bottom and top actually need to be offset slightly. Follow the FSM procedure and send it.
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Old 02-07-2021, 04:17 PM   #17
IDriveFords
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I did it one more time just for *****s and went back to the factory belt as the one that came out of the car only had 13k on it (which fyi appears to be wider, thicker and higher quality than the mitsuboshi I was told to use). This time it was very very slightly off but probably not even half a tooth. Stupid thing still won't start but at least it has spark now (verified that)... I guess it's going to have to get towed to the shop because I am completely out of ideas.
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Old 02-09-2021, 11:56 AM   #18
cboggess
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IDriveFords View Post
I did it one more time just for *****s and went back to the factory belt as the one that came out of the car only had 13k on it (which fyi appears to be wider, thicker and higher quality than the mitsuboshi I was told to use). This time it was very very slightly off but probably not even half a tooth. Stupid thing still won't start but at least it has spark now (verified that)... I guess it's going to have to get towed to the shop because I am completely out of ideas.
Where are you located? I may be able to make a suggestion on a shop if you don't have one.
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Old 02-10-2021, 11:23 AM   #19
IDriveFords
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There is a local shop here I'm going to have it towed to if I can't get it. I have one more idea and that is to pull the injectors and soak them in injector cleaner as original engine to this car did get flooded with salt water and I fear it may have washed over the injectors and clogged them. I got a better code scanner it pulled this code:

P0094(A1)
Raw code: 0094A1
ECU: A/C, Heater), Climate
Status: Test failed (current drive cycle), Pending, Confirmed, Test failed since last DTC clear
OBDII: Fuel system leak - small leak detected

Not sure why it shows up under "A/C, Heater" but it's worth a shot and the injectors having an issue would make some sort of sense. There are no visible external leaks on the injectors so it may just be leaking down into the cylinder's. I guess it's worth a shot I just don't know how hard these injectors are to pull on this car? My understanding is the passenger side kinda sucks but its really not that bad? Also can you just do an ohm test on these or do you have to look for injector pulse as I do not have the tools to do that...

Thanks,

-Rob-
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Old 02-11-2021, 05:51 PM   #20
NSandman95
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I saw you are in Hampton Roads, any chance on the peninsula? I have a few hours free on Saturday and can come give an extra eye, but loathe the bridge tunnels after commuting them for too many years... I have a tactrix 2.0, DMM, and oscilloscope I would bring. I am no mechanic, just a Subaru geek

I had an issue in 2012 with an outback XT after a full engine rebuild with intermittent and seemingly random no start where it would crank forever. Turns out the crank sensor was accumulating just enough iron particulate from(I think) the rusting Crank pulley that depending on accumulation time/weather the ECU would no longer see the proper pulse train. The scope showed me the dirty sensor pulse vs clean sensor pulse, I was about to spend a lot of time replacing wiring or tearing it down again.

I can help verify the ECU sees the crank/cam coming in and then verify its sending the spark/fuel out. We could also use the tactrix to help with diagnostic during the entire process, though the Cobb may be just as good, I have not had one since Version 1.
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Old 02-13-2021, 03:18 PM   #21
IDriveFords
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Crap I just saw this... yea I'm on the peninsula in the Hampton area. I actually went on ebay and found a *gently used* throttle body as the old one was in pretty rough shape due to the water that got to it and I fear even though it actuates when you turn the key on it's not necessarily working as expected. I kinda shelfed the project for this weekend but should be around tomorrow... unfortunately the new throttle body won't be here till next week. If you have time time tomorrow or next weekend just lmk as any help is greatly appreciated! You can just PM me if you'd like.

Thanks,

-Rob-
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Old 02-26-2021, 10:04 AM   #22
IDriveFords
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Default Replacement Throttle body - still nothing

So the shipping got massively delayed due to weather but I finally got it in and installed it last night but... no joy

The good news is when you press the gas it opens and closes as expected and everything seems to function correctly but the car still won't start. So now I have spark, fuel, timing and air but the stupid thing won't run. I think my only other options are sensors or is it at all possible that even though the battery tested good its just not putting out enough juice (I would think I wouldn't have spark if this were the case). I'm just drawing straws at this point and probably just need to throw in the towel and let a shop deal with it...
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Old 02-26-2021, 02:21 PM   #23
K3rm1tth3fr0g
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IDriveFords View Post
So the shipping got massively delayed due to weather but I finally got it in and installed it last night but... no joy

The good news is when you press the gas it opens and closes as expected and everything seems to function correctly but the car still won't start. So now I have spark, fuel, timing and air but the stupid thing won't run. I think my only other options are sensors or is it at all possible that even though the battery tested good its just not putting out enough juice (I would think I wouldn't have spark if this were the case). I'm just drawing straws at this point and probably just need to throw in the towel and let a shop deal with it...

+1 for sensors
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Old 02-26-2021, 05:43 PM   #24
junebugfareast
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Stupid question, but how much water did this car have in it and where and how long?
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Old 02-27-2021, 11:51 AM   #25
IDriveFords
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it sucked it all up in the intake and it was enough to make the oil look like a wendy's milkshake. It went to the dealership for a few days before it ended up in my garage where it all got immediately drained and flushed multiple times. The car actually started and ran before the motor was pulled (it knocked like all hell but it ran). The machine shop reworked the heads and the rest of the engine is brand spanking new including oil pan, oil pump and case halves. I guess there is a slim possibility the injectors are messed up and not fueling correctly but that would not explain it starting and running multiple times with the busted motor (we idled it for like 30+ minutes after we got it started). All the AVCS sensors were also thoroughly inspected and cleaned after and they *appeared* to be perfectly fine. It currently has no stored codes or at least none I can read with my current readers but I was going to try to see if I could get freeSSM and see if maybe that would tell me a different story...

Long story short the water did not wash over the car it only got sucked into the engine the interior and the rest of the car were perfectly dry and that was checked the day after it happened (meaning it did not get on the electronics).
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