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Old 03-01-2006, 06:21 PM   #1
8Complex

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Default DIY Closed-Deck

I was perusing random forums the other day and found this. I figure for someone with more time and blocks then they know what to do with, this might be an interesting thing to try...

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1444721


At first it had me 'ing, then I was 'ing, now I'm thinking it might actually be interesting to try.

End-result:
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Old 03-01-2006, 06:45 PM   #2
PHATsuby
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interesting, however I wouldnt do that on any car besides a dedicated drag car. Since I have no idea of the thermal properties of that material or how it will hold up in the long run.

Def is a cheap solution though.

Ben
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Old 03-01-2006, 08:27 PM   #3
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Aluminum epoxy is a pretty wonderful goo. The Aluminum it leaves behind is a fairly soft variety with a pretty huge co-efficient of thermal expansion. As long as the filler isn't actually touching the head gasket it would probably hold up for a very long time. Heads don't actually need THAT much coolant flow. Running completely closed deck blocks on street cars can be done with a bit of creativity (hint, use passages in the head, but feed it from an external source).

Very cool little DIY. Thanks 8complex.
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Old 03-01-2006, 08:30 PM   #4
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very very interestin. now which one of us is gonna do this?? go go go!!
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Old 03-01-2006, 08:37 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J*Bishop
very very interestin. now which one of us is gonna do this?? go go go!!
Looks like a good alturnitive to the drill plug method.
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Old 03-01-2006, 10:16 PM   #6
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The person that did that write-up is actually personal friends with my brother. He recently dyno'd his car and hit near 400whp with the factory sleeves. You can see the same write-up by Hotrex on turbooptions.com in DIY Fabrication under Block Filling Hotrex Style if you are interested.
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Old 03-01-2006, 10:52 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SubyGC8
The person that did that write-up is actually personal friends with my brother. He recently dyno'd his car and hit near 400whp with the factory sleeves. You can see the same write-up by Hotrex on turbooptions.com in DIY Fabrication under Block Filling Hotrex Style if you are interested.
any updates on how its holding up?
is this his daily driver or just a 'play' car?
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Old 03-02-2006, 08:15 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rst4me
any updates on how its holding up?
is this his daily driver or just a 'play' car?
The car used to be his daily but now I believe its just a project car. From what I've been told its holding you with no troubles.
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Old 03-02-2006, 08:32 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SubyGC8
From what I've been told its holding you with no troubles.
oh yeah, it holds me real good, all night long.
but serriously, thats great that its not crumbeling or degrading over time.
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Old 03-02-2006, 09:53 PM   #10
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you know I was just thinking about something like that today...
I was thinking I could just weld in some "ribbs" to strengthen it...But that looks much easier/better
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Old 03-03-2006, 12:17 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IllNastyImpreza
you know I was just thinking about something like that today...
I was thinking I could just weld in some "ribbs" to strengthen it...But that looks much easier/better
Ive seen alot of people take a drill slightly larger than the with of the water jacket. drill a little off of the sleeve and inside block, then instert metal dowel slugs into the drilled area... they do that all around the sleeves.
this does look alot better simply because your not modifying any of the properties of the block metal, just simply adding on.
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Old 03-03-2006, 11:21 AM   #12
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I have to replace my crankcase so I'm thinkin I might try it out... we'll see...
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Old 03-03-2006, 04:40 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rst4me
oh yeah, it holds me real good, all night long.
but serriously, thats great that its not crumbeling or degrading over time.
Whoops, haha! Its holding up with no troubles
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Old 03-03-2006, 05:25 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SubyGC8
Whoops, haha! Its holding up with no troubles
Nifty! Thanks for the update, it seems like such a simple idea, that just MIGHT work.

I guess if I ever really get into it again (AFI) and feel the need to "build" a motor, I will give it a shot.
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Old 03-03-2006, 06:46 PM   #15
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Go figgure, you of all people would be looking into how to closedecking a block
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Old 03-03-2006, 10:52 PM   #16
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There is a certian company that does this for Subaru blocks as well..


http://www.outbackmotors.com/block_pistons_rods.htm

Of course they are targeting the dung buggy market though.
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Old 03-05-2006, 09:54 PM   #17
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Looks like they just filled it with a crapload of "liquid steel" epoxy and drilled out some tubes for coolant. Is that really durable enough to provide a substantial increase in sleeve strength?
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Old 03-05-2006, 09:57 PM   #18
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i would be worried about the filler expanding too much and warping the cylinders as it expands, or warping the block itself. it just seems a little fishy to me, but if it works, a partial fill would be nice for some added rigidity.

~Josh~
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Old 03-06-2006, 05:07 AM   #19
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I have noticed that on Crawford's race block order page, they offer a fully closed-deck block. Is there a suby engine that was closed deck factory (the N/A maybe) ?

Wouldn't it be simpler just to get an OEM closed deck block than to do this?

Most Honda's only came with open decks, which is why this mod got attention. Of course it also helps that a D-series block is almost free, since you can get them anywhere.
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Old 03-06-2006, 06:52 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverpike
I have noticed that on Crawford's race block order page, they offer a fully closed-deck block. Is there a suby engine that was closed deck factory (the N/A maybe) ?
The '92 - '94 Legacy Turbo came with a 2.2L fully closed deck.

Mike~~
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Old 03-06-2006, 10:51 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ballitch
i would be worried about the filler expanding too much and warping the cylinders as it expands, or warping the block itself. it just seems a little fishy to me, but if it works, a partial fill would be nice for some added rigidity.
I would assume that the stuff is just strong enough to help, but not strong enough to deform anything else when it expands. More than likely it just deforms when it expands, so it doesn't cause any damage.

As to how much strength it provides... well, probably not much, but how much does it really take to keep a cylinder from flexing a whole hell of a lot? But when you get up into that area where you're flexing cylinder walls, any little bit could help.
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Old 03-06-2006, 08:18 PM   #22
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true that. id just make sure you get enough coolant flow around the cylinder walls and you should be golden. the EJ22t from the 1990-1994 legacy turbo came fully-closed deck block, as well as some years of the EJ20G i believe.


~Josh~
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Old 03-06-2006, 11:06 PM   #23
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I wouldn't think the filler material would conduct heat well, so it may hinder cooling more than calculated. The coolant is actually contacting the filler material more than the block and cylinder walls. Especially if it's some kind of epoxy, it will conduct heat way slower than an actual metal. What kind of material are they using anyway? I haven't heard any clear answers on that.
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Old 03-07-2006, 12:14 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2slofouru
I wouldn't think the filler material would conduct heat well, so it may hinder cooling more than calculated. The coolant is actually contacting the filler material more than the block and cylinder walls. Especially if it's some kind of epoxy, it will conduct heat way slower than an actual metal. What kind of material are they using anyway? I haven't heard any clear answers on that.
Spec sheet: http://www.devcon.com/techinfo/108.pdf

Gives the thermal conductivity of 1.58 [(cal x cm / (sec x cm(2) x C)] x 10(-3)

where water is 0.606 Wm-1K-1

Lots of units to convert there, and I'm headed to bed, so I'll pass.

MSDS: http://www.devcon.com/techinfo/10710.PDF
PHP Code:
Crystalline silica                       1%
Bisphenol A diglycidyl ether resin     20%-40%
Alkyl Glycidyl Ether                     1%-10
But that is only hazardous ingredients.
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Old 03-07-2006, 09:30 AM   #25
8Complex

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Well, only where the material was contacting the cylinder walls would it not be getting coolant flow like normal. The coolant normally flows into the heads via smaller passages anyway, so as long as you bore out where you need to get flow through the gaskets, you should be fine.
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