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Old 06-15-2003, 10:35 PM   #1
biggreen96
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Default coolant leak, from near thermo(pics)

Ok so after todays autoX I have noticed a large coolant leak coming from near the thermostat. I have no idea where its coming from so I snapped these.



Where the green droplet is hanging is where the stream of coolant is gushing out.
It drank(and puked) about a gallon of distilled water on the way home from the autoX.
Anybody have any advice for me?
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Old 06-15-2003, 11:27 PM   #2
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you see the little rubber elbow commong of the water pump that connects to that hard line.

thats a coolant line that runs up the side and under the intake manifold then connects to a heater hose I believe.

thats probably whats leaking, Ive seen it before.

suck part is you have to remove the intake manfold and a bunch of stuff to change itl

Jay
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Old 06-15-2003, 11:40 PM   #3
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no, because i was under the car until it spit, and it didnt come from up there.
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Old 06-16-2003, 01:17 AM   #4
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Strange... I'd clean off the whole area and let it dry then restart the vehicle and watch until it start to puke it out. If it is truely not coming from anywhere touching the coolant lines there, I'd suggest you pull the belts and then the front timing belt pulleys and then reinstall the belts (at least the water pump side) and clean everything up and restart. If it's coming from behind the timing belt cover, I'd suggest you get ready for a long weekend changing either the seal on one of the freeze plugs on the front of the block, or a head gasket.

Also, take a good look on the top of the motor under the alternator and power steering to make sure nothing is leaking from a line up there and just dripping through to down under where you have noticed it from.
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Old 06-16-2003, 01:33 AM   #5
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yeah I figured something allong those lines, I have a started the removal of the timing covers and realised I'm going to be taking the crank pully off. Is resting a breaker bar on the ground and cranking the engine really a good way to get that bolt undone?
Chris
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Old 06-16-2003, 02:46 AM   #6
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Chris

8Complex is spot on - there's three things here to check:

1) hose(s) - all of them in the vicinity

2) Water pump (especially if fluid is coming out from underneath the timing belt cover and not cascading down from on top

3) And, I hate to suggest this, the head gasket.

Have you recently gotten any CELs or hesitation from the engine. You could be getting a misfire (or several side to side) and that can cause an overheat situation, especially in an Auto-x scenario.

HTH. Keep us posted.

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Old 06-16-2003, 03:07 AM   #7
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I havent thrown any cels, and my temp gauge got funky so I got an autometer. It didnt ever overheat today, never even past 210.
You can see the see the head gasket all around the block right? It doesnt appear to come from that seam.
How about the crankpulley? Ill be getting some tools in the morning.
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Old 06-16-2003, 04:18 AM   #8
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Chris,

Typically, on the Phase I motors (which, going by your profile, you should have in your car), the head gasket ruptures internally across/between the cylinder and water jacket galley's so you won't necessarily see any weeping or flow outside of the block at the head/block joint seam. That's what tends to cause the "boil" that you mentioned because hot exhaust gases are pressurizing the water jacket. A coolant "sniff test" will tell you whether you're getting exhaust in your coolant. Phase IIs tend to leak externally at the head/block joint but they've also been known to blow internally.

BTW - Did you connect your Autometer to the factory temperature gauge sender unit (coolant temp sensor) or the ECU coolant temp sender unit (engine coolant temp sensor)? Depending on which one you connected to, you may be be getting a different reading than what you should be getting. Were you able to isolate "why" your factory temp gauge was funky? If it was because of the sender, then you may be getting an incorrect signal to the Autometer too.

If you are getting leakage (coolant that is) around your crank pulley then that speaks to a deeper, more serious problem internal to your block itself. That sounds like the block halves have been compromised/cracked across the water jacket and the engine is leaking coolant into the oil galleys and that's definitely not a good place to be.

Not sure how much you dumped during the puking, but you'll want to make sure that you bleed off any air that may have accumulated in the system. Air pockets in the Subaru engine cooling system are a known problem area and worth the extra time to do it right when you replace the coolant/water mix.

HTH. Keep us informed.

Br, Dale

Edited to suggest you check the engine block drain plug behind the thermostat housing too. Could be loose.
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Old 06-16-2003, 11:48 AM   #9
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My autometer is installed into the upper hose with its own sender.

I will find a sniff tester and see if that is the case.

Thanks for the help, Ill let you guys know.
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Old 06-16-2003, 08:47 PM   #10
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Ok I am starting to get this thing apart, now I need to get #1 at TDC. Which marks need to be pointing which way? my chiltons doesnt really help me here.
Would it be wise to remove the plugs so the pressure in the cylinder doesnt move anything when I have the T belt off?

I am going to check the water pump seals/gaskets, I stopped by the dealership and told the tech my problem and he said seals gastkets most likely. Showed me a poor forester that had a nice big hole in the block under the alternator.
Chris

Last edited by biggreen96; 06-16-2003 at 08:55 PM.
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Old 06-16-2003, 11:30 PM   #11
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I got a similar leak once.

Come to find out coolant was leaking from the UPPER radiator hose, into the timing cover and back out the bottom!

Check it out. Drove me crazy thinking coolant was somehow leaking from the cam gears or crank.
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Old 06-17-2003, 12:36 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by biggreen96
Ok I am starting to get this thing apart, now I need to get #1 at TDC. Which marks need to be pointing which way? ... Would it be wise to remove the plugs so the pressure in the cylinder doesnt move anything when I have the T belt off?
Chris,

Before you do this, remember to make sure the camshafts don't rotate once you get the belt off or you'll have valve train collision. If you have the tools to "lock" the camshaft pulleys in place I'd use them. You'll want to take out the spark plugs, but there will still be compression on the valve train (from the valve springs) sufficient enough to turn the cam sprockets once the belt is loose. And it's a nightmare to get those squirrely sprockets back into the proper alignment position in order to put the belt back on if they've gone off their marks and collided. That's why it's important to have some way to keep them from moving.

Some auto parts stores have OHC camshaft lock sets that they'll rent. Alternatively, you could ask your Subaru tech to rent them to you for the weekend. I've never done this without the proper tools so I can't tell you how to hold it all in place while your're working on the other stuff. Okay, that said, to find set your engine up to take the belt off:

Unconnect your coil pack so there's no ignition source available, pull your plugs, put your car in neutral and block the wheels. If you're tall and don't want to bend completely over to work on the engine, jack it up and put it up on jackstands (personal preference) so that you don't have that pain in your back from always bending and you've got room to crawl around underneath too.

Best way to position the timing belt, presuming you've already removed all the ancillary stuff like your radiator shroud and fans, alternator, PS and AC belts, is to fit a socket and breaker bar (or a honking big rachet) on the crankshaft pulley and turn it counter-clockwise while holding the crankshaft pulley with a strap or chain wrench. (CAUTION - don't let the engine rotate in reverse, just lock/hold the crankshaft pulley and break-bar that crankshaft pulley bolt off). Worth repeating, don't turn the engine in reverse. Take off your crankshaft pulley (should come off by hand but use a screwdriver behind it to gently lever it off if it's a sticker. Put your crankshaft pulley bolt back in place tighten it by hand until it stops

Undo your outer timing belt cover and take that off. On the 2.5L there are two marks on each of the top "intake" cam sprockets that are 180 degrees apart from each other. The first mark is a single mark "|" , the other is a double mark "||" just opposite it on the front face of the intake cam sprockets. The bottom "exhaust" cam sprockets also have two marks. One mark "|" and a second double mark "||", 90 degrees from the single mark. There is a separate single mark on the face of the crankshaft sprocket and one on the engine block immediately behind this sprocket. Also, on your inner timing belt cover, there are two "notches" located on the top edge of the cover. Dab some high gloss white/yellow paint on each of these marks for ease of visual alignment and allow it to dry,

Here's your sprocket mark alignment process:

Gently turn the crankshaft, clockwise, until the single mark on both top sprockets align with the mark on the top edge of the inner timing belt cover. If everything is in the correct position, then the single "|" mark on the top sprockets will align with and be adjacent to the marks located at the top of the inner timing belt cover, the two "||" marks on both the top and bottom sprockets will be directly adjacent to each other, the single "|" mark on the bottom sprockets will point directly right or left at the adjacent timing belt, and the the crankshaft sprocket mark will line up directly with the center mark on the engine block. If it has a factory timing belt, then there will be a white band across the entire width of the belt at the crankshaft sprocket/engine block mark and at each of the other alignment points.

Loosen your tensioner mounting bolts located immediately to the right of the crankshaft sprocket to relieve the pressure but keep an eye on your camshaft sprockets to ensure that they don't move more away from their alignment points. Note: You should have the redesigned 98 tensioner, and that is held on by only one bolt. Remove the bottom left idler pulley by undoing its bolt. Take your belt off and you should be good to go.

HTH. Let me know if you need more/additional information.

BTW - Make sure you use a shop press to reset the plunger on your tensioner and take at least three (3) minutes to compress it before you set the stopper pin in it.

Quote:
Originally posted by biggreen96
the dealership and told the tech my problem and he said seals gastkets most likely. Showed me a poor forester that had a nice big hole in the block under the alternator.
Chris
that can't be good. What happened.

Br, Dale

Last edited by Subietonic; 06-17-2003 at 12:45 AM.
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Old 06-17-2003, 01:27 AM   #13
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I rotated the engine in reverse What has happened? How do I fix it? uggh.

One thing, what size allen do I need to remove the coolant drain plugs? I don't have a key that big.

Don't know exactly what happened with the forrester, he hadnt gotten it apart aside from removing the alternator. But I would think a rod right?
Thanks for your help so far

Chris
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Old 06-17-2003, 02:17 PM   #14
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The plugs are 14mm if I remember right.

Two bolts countertightened wont be strong enough.
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Old 06-17-2003, 06:16 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by ciper

Two bolts countertightened wont be strong enough.
I dont follow.
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Old 06-17-2003, 06:48 PM   #16
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Two 14mm bolts, on a threaded rod (bolt or otherwise) tight against each other wont be strong enough to remove the plugs. You will need to weld the nut in place or get a 14mm hex driver.
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Old 06-17-2003, 08:03 PM   #17
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my god man why are you tearing the engine apart without first pressure testing the cooling system!

egads, thats alot of work.

interference engine my azzzz..

Anyone who has ever done timming belts on a DOHC 2.5, knows if you look at the spring loaded cams (driver side) cross eyed, they will spin on you.

rotating the engine backwords wont harn anything.

to line up the timing marks, al ya gotta do is look at the crank gear, there is a line on it, and there is a line on the front of the block, turn the motor while watching, and line up the marks.

Jay
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Old 06-17-2003, 08:53 PM   #18
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ciper- ok gotcha, you were describing making a key.

Quote:
Anyone who has ever done timming belts on a DOHC 2.5, knows if you look at the spring loaded cams (driver side) cross eyed, they will spin on you.
no kidding

I got everthing apart and replaced the pump gasket. Just need to get a vise and reset the t-belt tensioner, I thought I would be able to press it down boy was I wrong.
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Old 06-17-2003, 11:12 PM   #19
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Chris,

I double checked and the book actually details compressing the tensioner verrrrrrrrrrrry slowly (over a three minute period) before you set the lock pin in place to hold it. Hence my comment about it above. Once you get it "compressed", put a small pin through the holes that are drilled through the shaft tube and the shaft itself to keep it compressed while you install it.

Anyone who has ever done timming belts on a DOHC 2.5, knows if you look at the spring loaded cams (driver side) cross eyed, they will spin on you. .

This was my word of caution not to let the cams get out of time (spin a revolution while you weren't looking). Just keep an eye on them so they don't sping.

McDade - I understood the 2.5L DOHC to be an interference engine while the 2.2L SOHC and 2.5L SOHC is not. Do I have that correct?

Br, Dale
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Old 06-17-2003, 11:22 PM   #20
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well they spun, and when attempting to get it to stay at that volitle point it sprang loose a few times. As long as I get all my marks lined up(in addition to the gear marks I put dabs of whiteout on the belt and gears so I could get them back exactly.) I will be fine right?

So far I'm having fun with this, I love to take things apart.
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Old 06-18-2003, 10:08 PM   #21
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ok after it all went back in and on. It still leaked.
I noticed after taking the WP off the second time these passages.

So I pluged one and blew on the other, I could hear air escaping through the inner area.


I figure I need a new WP but, would plugging the holes be ok? PLEASE say yes.

edit: I know for a fact that its coming from the hole. Its time for a new WP isnt it?

Last edited by biggreen96; 06-18-2003 at 10:38 PM.
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Old 06-19-2003, 02:18 AM   #22
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If there's weeping and/or leaking going on around your water pump, then it's time to replace it... especially since you've got everything apart already. BTW - how many miles on your car?
Did you do the leak down test and/or the sniff test to see what else might be going on? Did you bleed/burp your cooling system on the refill?

How's your timing belt looking? Any cracks, scars, or cogged tooth material worn or missing? If there's any doubt in your mind about the belt, change it while you've got it torn down.

How's the oil pump looking? Any drips or drops around that baby? Same thing as the water pump, go for it if it needs it and you've got it apart. No time like the present.

And while you're at it and have everything off the radiator too, give all of those hoses a good look/feel too. This would be a great time to change them out if you're even thinking about it.

Overall, how did things look under the timing belt cover? Clean and tidy or gooped up and cruddy? It's usually a good bell weather indicator of overall engine condition.

Glad it's coming together for you.

Br, Dale
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Old 06-19-2003, 02:53 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by biggreen96
I got everthing apart and replaced the pump gasket. Just need to get a vise and reset the t-belt tensioner, I thought I would be able to press it down boy was I wrong.
Note that the manuals actually have a pressure spec for re-compressing the tensioner. Also, a normal allen key (that'll fit in there) will bend, but will work to hold it in place while installing.

If you use a vice, the key word is "slowly".

Also, while you're in there, check the toothed timing belt idler pulley. Pull it off and check the bearing for noise, etc. I've had mine freeze and lock up, so I'm pretty paranoid of that damned bearing. :-/
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Old 06-19-2003, 03:03 AM   #24
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Thanks for your suggestions, my total miles are 146k, the belts look pristine, I had them changed when I got the car at 111k.
To my suprise the area under the cover was very clean. I have developed a valve cover leak though.

I will get a leak down or sniffer test, Its never had one and I'm real curious about it anyhow.
All in all I think the engine is in pretty good shape, no major repairs in its lifetime.
I replaced the vacuum and upper coolant hoses when I installed the temp gauge, the lower is dirty but stays on the ends well and is crack free. I see this motor going 200k or more, but hopefully it wont have to if I ever save any money for a ej20

I went to a neighboors house to use a vise, and belive me I did it slowly as there was a new 7 series right behind me, full turn on the vise, then one minute ogling the beemer. I think it took about 10 mins to reset that thing
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Old 06-20-2003, 11:27 PM   #25
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well she's fixed, took a few days but I am now 20x's more comfortable ripping apart my engine.
Thanks everyone for your help.
Chris
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