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Old 08-23-2018, 12:55 PM   #26
Titter
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Default DOHC EJ Cylinder 4 Combustion Chamber Cooling kit

how do you justify $90USD for a threaded fitting, a piece of hose, and a T-fitting?
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Old 08-23-2018, 01:00 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Titter View Post
how do you justify $90USD for a threaded fitting, a piece of hose, and a T-fitting?
Same way you justify the price of anything. If people are buying it, then it's worth the price. If it's easier for you to source yourself, go for it.

$90 doesn't seem bad for, well, anything car related. At the end of the day, you're paying more for the manufacturer's investment in time and research than for the hard parts...
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Old 08-23-2018, 01:14 PM   #28
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What he ^^^^ said.

Can you build one yourself? Sure.
How much time and effort are you going to spend running down the right parts, lengths, etc.? How much is your time worth?

Dom already did all the research and created the kit for you.
Now all you have to do is mimic what he did since he already did all the hard stuff.
He even includes free shipping.

You could say the same thing for people charging $100 for a turbo oil feed line.
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Old 08-23-2018, 01:24 PM   #29
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Why would subaru place a knock sensor over a knock prone cylinder with intentions of increasing timing in the problem cylinder in an effort to protect the cylinders? Lol.

Silly subaru.
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Old 08-23-2018, 01:45 PM   #30
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Because by tuning the most knock-prone (weakest) cylinder, you can be lazy about per cylinder spark tuning on the other cylinders. Subaru optimized the fueling, but they only addressed spark on the per cylinder tuning from the factory.

Appreciate the additional data Dom - you reason through things in your videos in the same way I do and you back up your thoughts and ideas with actual data. The older I get, the more I realize this is a rarity outside of professional motorsport.
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Old 08-23-2018, 01:46 PM   #31
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MPS-Dom, can post install pictures or provide link to install video. Thanks.
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Old 08-23-2018, 01:51 PM   #32
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Here's a question for you folks: Would this be a worthwhile mod on an EJ20G? Similar coolant flow path to the Phase 2 EJ engines?
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Old 08-23-2018, 02:50 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai Jack View Post
Install instructions are there. Take a look over in the version for pre-2008 models. His videos are there as well. You just need a magnifying glass to read it on-line.

Dom -
If I am reading your graphs correctly, while you kit brings down the cylinder #4 temp, it also causes the temps to rise in cylinders #1, #2, & #3. Looks like your kit is bring all cylinder temps in alignment with each other to reduce "spots" of hot & cold.

Is this correct or am I reading your chart wrong?

This looks like a worthy mod, especially for the price
In general, the goal is even temps/AFR's across all cylinders.
EGT sorta covers both. Used in aircooled aircraft all the time so you can lean a carb for max and safe power. Max power is just lean of peak provided all cylinders are close and you can monitor EGT's on all cylinders.

So yes, some "overcooled" cylinders may come up, others should drop.
Along the line with compression values.
You want a range, usually higher the better, but also keep the spread within another limit (usually 10% from highest to lowest).

Basic theory, the more equal some measured values, the more equal the work provided.
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Old 08-23-2018, 02:52 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXREALTOR View Post
Why would subaru place a knock sensor over a knock prone cylinder with intentions of increasing timing in the problem cylinder in an effort to protect the cylinders? Lol.

Silly subaru.
Because, if the worst cylinder is happy, the rest should be more happy.
Happy cylinders last longer.
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Old 08-23-2018, 02:56 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redrexmeister View Post
MPS-Dom, can post install pictures or provide link to install video. Thanks.
You can find them on IAGs website on the listing for this product.
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Old 08-23-2018, 03:02 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai Jack View Post
Install instructions are there. Take a look over in the version for pre-2008 models. His videos are there as well. You just need a magnifying glass to read it on-line.

Dom -
If I am reading your graphs correctly, while you kit brings down the cylinder #4 temp, it also causes the temps to rise in cylinders #1, #2, & #3. Looks like your kit is bring all cylinder temps in alignment with each other to reduce "spots" of hot & cold.

Is this correct or am I reading your chart wrong?

This looks like a worthy mod, especially for the price

Ahhhh....found install.
If you don't have a 12mm Allen wrench, you can cheat and use a bolt with a 12mm head. Put the head into the fitting, then use a small pipe wrench on the threads to back the plug out.
I will assume there is an included fitting to go into the head?
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Old 08-23-2018, 03:31 PM   #37
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you could do this yourself, but good luck experimenting to find proper orifice size to allow coolant travel to the heater core while providing some flow to the head

I wanted to buy this, but it was out of stock, I wanted to make one with a custom fitting adapter with AN8 outlet to have 90 degree fitting pointing towards the upper coolant line, but didn't want to experiment with orifice sizes
now that the engine is in, I am just too lazy to install it even if I buy it

we did these experiments back in the day - two most efficient yet crazy that I recall were T-ing coolant flow into two separate small heat exchangers which connected to the back of the both heads, and another was bypassing the heater core completely and running a custom heat exchanger in place of TMIC which was cooled by the hood scoop flow. Worked great
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Old 08-23-2018, 05:08 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
you could do this yourself, but good luck experimenting to find proper orifice size to allow coolant travel to the heater core while providing some flow to the head

I wanted to buy this, but it was out of stock, I wanted to make one with a custom fitting adapter with AN8 outlet to have 90 degree fitting pointing towards the upper coolant line, but didn't want to experiment with orifice sizes
now that the engine is in, I am just too lazy to install it even if I buy it
My thoughts exactly. I've built many custom parts and was going to replicate this, but then I considered the fact I do not have an easy way to confirm correct orifice size for flow and decided to order it. If I got lucky the first time I made money, if i (most likely) didn't I lost it.
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Old 08-23-2018, 05:23 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie-III View Post
Because, if the worst cylinder is happy, the rest should be more happy.
Happy cylinders last longer.
My point was if there's a cooling problem causing detonation on cylinder 4 why would they put the knock sensor on cylinder 4 and add timing to that cylinder which would only increase detonation even more?

Also seems kind of odd that there'd be a plug on the back of that head. the EJ's been around for a long time yet nothing has been done by Subaru with that plug to correct that heat problem?

I'm just thinking out loud here... That's all

For the guys who plan on trying to make their own, why not just buy one measure the orifice size and then post it for everyone to make their own.

I'm a DIY guy, I love to make my own stuff but I'd still give the guy a hundred bucks just because he took the time to bring it to everyone's attention. I just don't understand people sometimes🙄
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Old 08-23-2018, 06:57 PM   #40
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Price out the fitting, a length of hose, a t-fitting, and clamps, in the same materials used and let us know how much it costs at retail. No special discounts; no volume purchasing discounts; etc.
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Old 08-23-2018, 06:58 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turpid Porpoise View Post
You can find them on IAGs website on the listing for this product.
I see that they have the hose for sale but no additional pictures showing install. Where did you see the install pictures?


https://www.iagperformance.com/GDT-C...p/gdt-1001.htm
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Old 08-23-2018, 07:05 PM   #42
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Old 08-23-2018, 09:56 PM   #43
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Default DOHC EJ Cylinder 4 Combustion Chamber Cooling kit

3/8 threaded NPT fitting - $3.99
Coolant safe heater hose - $1.39/ft
3/8 T fitting - $8.49
Crush clamps - $5.49/ bag of 10
(all prices in canadian dollars)

guess iíll make my own. anyone want one? iíll cut you a deal $88USD

i mean, thanks for solving a known issue and all, but $89USD is robbery. if it was like $40-$50 i might have bought one. but instead, corporate greed opens the door for ppl to steal your idea and make their own and thus you losing sales.

but what do i know, iím just some dude on the internet.
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:33 PM   #44
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Interesting...worth the money for the knowledge contribution to the community. My engine isn't in the car yet, even easier.

The value of the product and the contribution to the subaru community far outweigh the initial cost. People who innovate deserve to reap a reward. I know there are always people who love capitalizing on the work of others, but give credit where it's due. Some jerkoff will probably send one to his buddy in China to make crap copies eventually, show some pride in American innovation for a change.

Situations like this remind me of my work environment. I constantly have to find an innovative way to get a job done faster, to compete with the other techs. It's one of the few ways I earn a decent living. Not surprisingly, management always wants every tech to copy the skills of the best, and it's a constant struggle to keep any advantage that gives me an edge. Everyone is in a competition for some form of success, and there are always parasites who feed off it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXREALTOR View Post
I'm a DIY guy, I love to make my own stuff but I'd still give the guy a hundred bucks just because he took the time to bring it to everyone's attention. I just don't understand people sometimes��
Exactly

Last edited by 2slofouru; 08-23-2018 at 10:48 PM.
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Old 08-24-2018, 01:23 PM   #45
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Dom (GetaDomTune) provides sound rational and data to attempt some level of confirmation. He posted videos and includes instructions. That's more than I can say for some of the aftermarket parts many SuBros swoon over without any such backing. I would like to see more aftermarket parts makers following suit to back their stuff up. The kit cost does not seem that high considering what kind of less-functional parts people drastically overspend on. Some of the other projects he has been working on are pretty interesting and this type of part would help fund progress on those. Just saying....
My only (minor) critique of the kit would be the hose type. I would rather have EPDM hose instead of silicone, regardless of the silicone hose's quality. Silicone coolant hose has no place on my street car. In fact, I will bet a re-purposed heater core hose would have a pre-molded bend in it and likely fit on those fittings.


*This thread is pretty revealing and entertaining. And sadly it is very likely that some D-bag is going to measure the critical sizes and post them up.
Now that I have seen a kit in-person, it is pretty nice. Even if the fittings/parts were off-shelf available (exact fitting is likely not)....personally my time is worth more working on other tasks. It would be inefficient if I spent time internet searching for an elusive fitting and enough parts to build one or two kits. Perspective
I also checked that Subaru heater hose (EPDM) fits on the fittings perfectly. Either cut up a heater hose or there is probably a Gates pre-molded 90deg hose that would be great for street car use. The alloy fitting is pretty nice. I was thinking the OEM plug was crush washer sealed but from the part drawings it appears not so.


**This thread has literally turned into complete garbage. That pointless pissing match BS wouldn't even have occurred if Dom had not thought of this concept and released a kit. I guess you could debate that Subaru came up with it first, yet for a different functional purpose. Yes..there is an OEM bypass fitting 21170aa020 which is an older Legacy part that I expect will be discontinued once current supply stock runs out. My point is NOBODY would have even thought to look for that part prior to Dom releasing his kit. I suppose it's revealing of character. I mean really? A guy puts some thought into something not really released before. Then some in this community thank him for that by berating his pricing, diluting with an alternative, and I expect in the next few days some azz hat will post up the internal ID. Just effing disappointing...

Last edited by JarHarms; 01-25-2019 at 09:16 AM. Reason: Just effing disappointing...
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Old 08-24-2018, 01:31 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXREALTOR View Post
My point was if there's a cooling problem causing detonation on cylinder 4 why would they put the knock sensor on cylinder 4 and add timing to that cylinder which would only increase detonation even more?

Also seems kind of odd that there'd be a plug on the back of that head. the EJ's been around for a long time yet nothing has been done by Subaru with that plug to correct that heat problem?
I see what you mean after looking at a few OEM maps - in some cases they add timing to the no.4, and in others, they pull timing from the no.1 and no.3.

While it makes perfect sense to tune the weakest cylinder if you're lazy, the part that doesn't make sense is why this per cylinder adjustment wouldn't have been applied to the other three cylinders as a copy+paste of the entire table.

The position of the knock sensor doesn't matter. I would disagree with a few of Dom's knock sensor-related statements in his video given the sophistication of the OEM knock listening. Gain is applied on a per cylinder basis, valve train noise is filtered out, and I believe the addition of a second knock sensor in the FA-series motors was for a rudimentary way of using echo-location to eliminate false knock or other error (i.e. time delay is checked when initial knock is detected to ensure it is coming from the expected direction). The knock detection algorithm is typically listening to the second harmonic of factory-measured knock in order to provide a better SNR than the first harmonic.

The part people neglect to talk about is how changing just about anything on your car can mess up the OEM knock detection accuracy... unfortunately, without a quality aftermarket management system, there's nothing you can do to fix this. If the filters are all set with hardware components, you'd have to do some component level swaps on the OEM PCB... and if the filtering is set at a software level, no one in the aftermarket community (RomRaider, Cobb, etc.) has devoted any time to making these tables/values tune-able.

This is getting off-topic so I'll refer anyone curious about OEM knock-sensing to another topic where I go into more detail about this, HERE.
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Old 08-24-2018, 01:51 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsaturn7085 View Post
I see what you mean after looking at a few OEM maps - in some cases they add timing to the no.4, and in others, they pull timing from the no.1 and no.3.

While it makes perfect sense to tune the weakest cylinder if you're lazy, the part that doesn't make sense is why this per cylinder adjustment wouldn't have been applied to the other three cylinders as a copy+paste of the entire table.

The position of the knock sensor doesn't matter. I would disagree with a few of Dom's knock sensor-related statements in his video given the sophistication of the OEM knock listening. Gain is applied on a per cylinder basis, valve train noise is filtered out, and I believe the addition of a second knock sensor in the FA-series motors was for a rudimentary way of using echo-location to eliminate false knock or other error (i.e. time delay is checked when initial knock is detected to ensure it is coming from the expected direction). The knock detection algorithm is typically listening to the second harmonic of factory-measured knock in order to provide a better SNR than the first harmonic.

The part people neglect to talk about is how changing just about anything on your car can mess up the OEM knock detection accuracy... unfortunately, without a quality aftermarket management system, there's nothing you can do to fix this. If the filters are all set with hardware components, you'd have to do some component level swaps on the OEM PCB... and if the filtering is set at a software level, no one in the aftermarket community (RomRaider, Cobb, etc.) has devoted any time to making these tables/values tune-able.

This is getting off-topic so I'll refer anyone curious about OEM knock-sensing to another topic where I go into more detail about this, HERE.
Yes, you know I've been on the very edge of removing my cylinder 4 timing for some time. I've scoured the web for hours trying to find something to make me feel good about doing it but have not had any success.

Combine that with the fact that my per cylinder knock monitoring does not show cylinder 4 to knock more (mine actually knocks less) than the others and I've let the table be as is from subaru and Cobb.

Subaru is adding timing to a hot cylinder, or, removing timing from others as you've stated above. Makes me scratch my head and wonder if that bolt on the back of the head is there for a reason.
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Old 08-24-2018, 05:32 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXREALTOR View Post
My point was if there's a cooling problem causing detonation on cylinder 4 why would they put the knock sensor on cylinder 4 and add timing to that cylinder which would only increase detonation even more?

Also seems kind of odd that there'd be a plug on the back of that head. the EJ's been around for a long time yet nothing has been done by Subaru with that plug to correct that heat problem?

I'm just thinking out loud here... That's all

For the guys who plan on trying to make their own, why not just buy one measure the orifice size and then post it for everyone to make their own.

I'm a DIY guy, I love to make my own stuff but I'd still give the guy a hundred bucks just because he took the time to bring it to everyone's attention. I just don't understand people sometimes🙄
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsaturn7085 View Post
I see what you mean after looking at a few OEM maps - in some cases they add timing to the no.4, and in others, they pull timing from the no.1 and no.3.

While it makes perfect sense to tune the weakest cylinder if you're lazy, the part that doesn't make sense is why this per cylinder adjustment wouldn't have been applied to the other three cylinders as a copy+paste of the entire table.

The position of the knock sensor doesn't matter. I would disagree with a few of Dom's knock sensor-related statements in his video given the sophistication of the OEM knock listening. Gain is applied on a per cylinder basis, valve train noise is filtered out, and I believe the addition of a second knock sensor in the FA-series motors was for a rudimentary way of using echo-location to eliminate false knock or other error (i.e. time delay is checked when initial knock is detected to ensure it is coming from the expected direction). The knock detection algorithm is typically listening to the second harmonic of factory-measured knock in order to provide a better SNR than the first harmonic.

The part people neglect to talk about is how changing just about anything on your car can mess up the OEM knock detection accuracy... unfortunately, without a quality aftermarket management system, there's nothing you can do to fix this. If the filters are all set with hardware components, you'd have to do some component level swaps on the OEM PCB... and if the filtering is set at a software level, no one in the aftermarket community (RomRaider, Cobb, etc.) has devoted any time to making these tables/values tune-able.

This is getting off-topic so I'll refer anyone curious about OEM knock-sensing to another topic where I go into more detail about this, HERE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie-III View Post
Because, if the worst cylinder is happy, the rest should be more happy.
Happy cylinders last longer.
Whether by accident, or testing on an engine dyno, FHI engine/ECU guys found an issue.
Basically, push the worst case and adjust, the rest "should" be happy. Thus target cyl 4.
Could be some bean counter looking over their shoulders and saying, "too much to fix, keep price down.....or else.....".
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Old 08-24-2018, 05:53 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Titter View Post
how do you justify $90USD for a threaded fitting, a piece of hose, and a T-fitting?
I will "guess" it also includes a drilled and tapped plug.

Yes, I love to "make my own", but I also like to support those that took time and effort to "fix an issue".

Other things to consider.......

Last time I ran the numbers (plant manager at a wire and cable factory), it cost $50US just to shuffle paperwork around for an order when stuff was in stock.
Then, material sitting on a shelf means it is not invested and hopefully making money.

Not counting rent, taxes, overhead, etc.

So, does this picture seem high priced?
Maybe.

Do you run a business and know the other costs?
Not likely.

I see no downside other than "price", but I see the reason for "price".
Just my take on it.

BTW, mrsaturn7085, I added some info to your linked knock sensor thread.
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Old 08-24-2018, 06:08 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie-III View Post
Whether by accident, or testing on an engine dyno, FHI engine/ECU guys found an issue.
Basically, push the worst case and adjust, the rest "should" be happy. Thus target cyl 4.
Could be some bean counter looking over their shoulders and saying, "too much to fix, keep price down.....or else.....".
Is it an issue (to FHI) though? Why have a plug in the back of the head?

My thought was perhaps it was engineered that way and the per cylinder knock adjustment, regardless of cylinder, is just a compliment to the strategy of running number 4 with less cooling and placing just one knock sensor on top of it.

This would fall inline with your remarks regarding the bean counters but end like-

'more than one knock sensor is too much money - lower the knock threshold over cylinder 4 and place the one knock sensor you're getting there'

Again - just thinking out loud.
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