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Old 10-14-2007, 01:12 PM   #26
jtmcinder
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As long as Nationals is on asphalt and not brushed concrete, I wouldn't worry about the Maxdas. Of course, they could issue a clarification that states the front wheels are not allowed to be connected to the engine....

- Jtoby
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Old 10-27-2007, 07:49 PM   #27
GreasedLightning
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Update for my car: '04 WRX with Cobb catted downpipe, new Cobb STX basemap that does not disable CEL's and stock O2 sensor downstream from the cat. My car will give a cat inefficiency code if I drive at less than 70 mph on the highway at a constant speed and throttle position. No problems around town or racing. I can avoid ever getting a CEL by driving at at greater than 70mph or by not keeping a constant throttle position/speed when at 50-70mph. To see if I was just preventing the OBDII test from running, I bought a hand-held scanner and found today that all of the car's OBDII tests were in a ready-state. Therefore, I conclude that my emissions system is SCCA legal.
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Old 10-27-2007, 11:38 PM   #28
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interesting- any idea if you do throw a code how long until you are OBDII "ready"

just thnking about driving a long way to an event and you inadvertently throw the P0640- what it takes to get int the ready state- obviously the cel needs re-set- how long or what kind of driving is needed to get in the ready state?

TIA
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Old 10-29-2007, 07:47 AM   #29
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Screw this...I'll just run SM.

BTW: Helix or Titek catted DP on 04 WRX...throws P0420 after two short drive cycles.
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Old 10-29-2007, 10:48 AM   #30
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^ good to know that- thanks
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Old 10-29-2007, 11:22 AM   #31
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not sure if it is relevant but I had the turbo xs stealthback (catted of course) exaust on my old 03 wrx for 2 years with no cels. No engine management, no defoulers, etc....
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Old 10-29-2007, 12:11 PM   #32
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How far do you suppose people will go to enforce the ruling on the O2 sensor? We're not allowed to modify the housing in any way. Do you suppose anyone will go far enough to claim that it has to be in the stock housing? That would pretty much make it mandatory that we all keep the stock 3rd cat pipe.
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Old 10-29-2007, 12:51 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby921 View Post
How far do you suppose people will go to enforce the ruling on the O2 sensor? We're not allowed to modify the housing in any way. Do you suppose anyone will go far enough to claim that it has to be in the stock housing? That would pretty much make it mandatory that we all keep the stock 3rd cat pipe.
I seriously doubt we'd be required to run the stock 3rd cat piping. Why? That would be a true takeback. The rules in that apply in this case:

Quote:
13.10 ENGINE AND DRIVE TRAIN
E. Any part of the exhaust system beyond (downstream from) the
header/manifold or catalytic converter, if so equipped, may be
substituted provided the system meets the requirements of 3.5.
Stainless steel heat exchangers are permitted only if the physical
dimensions and configuration remain unchanged.
Modifications of any type, including additions to or removal of,
the catalytic converters, thermal reactors, or any other pollution
control devices in the exhaust system are not allowed and the
system must be operable. Replacement catalytic converters must
be OE if the vehicle has not exceeded the five-year/50,000 mile
warranty period as mandated by the EPA. Converters must be of
the same type and size and used in the same location as the
original equipment converter(s). This does not allow for a high
performance unit. If the vehicle has exceeded the five-year/
50,000 mile warranty period, replacement catalytic converters
must be OE-type as per Section 13.
Exhaust hangers which are bolted or welded on the car are considered
part of the body and may not be changed or removed.

14.10 ENGINE
D. Exhaust manifolds and headers may be replaced with alternate
units which are emissions-legal. Relocation of the oxygen sensor
on the header is permitted. Alternate oxygen sensors, including
heated types, are permitted. This allowance does not permit
relocation of the catalytic converter (see 13.10.E). Exhaust heat
shields may be modified the minimum amount necessary to ac
commodate allowed alternate exhaust components.

14.12 STX
6. High flow catalytic converters are allowed, but must attach
within six inches of the original unit. Multiple catalytic converters
may be replaced by a single unit. The inlet of the single replacement
converter may be located no further downstream than 6"
along the piping flow path from the original exit of the final OE
converter.
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Old 10-29-2007, 03:22 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby921 View Post
How far do you suppose people will go to enforce the ruling on the O2 sensor? We're not allowed to modify the housing in any way. Do you suppose anyone will go far enough to claim that it has to be in the stock housing? That would pretty much make it mandatory that we all keep the stock 3rd cat pipe.
It's a valid question, thus far the answer seems to be that if you "relocate" it via a antifouler to "fool" the ecu, then that is not allowed. Simply moving up or downstream seems to be OK. This entire "calrification" seems to have the complete opposite effect of clarifying anything

^^ looks like the turboxs stealthback downpipe would be workable- good to know thanks
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Old 10-29-2007, 07:57 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilC View Post

Since I'm not an AP user and don't know all the details I may be wrong on this but I've been told that those registers are part of your basemap and not your realtime map. That means that you can no longer even think about having your ST* legal map as your realtime it's got to be your base map (ignoring the argument over whether it was ever legal to use it only as a realtime).

Good point. I would say that a large percentage of the access port base maps out there are NOT ST legal. When I had my car retuned following the clarification, Jorge made two custom basemaps for me, both STX legal (One for 93 octane the other for 100 octane). The basemaps had the CEL defeats removed.

Commentary:
Until recently all of the accessport off the shelf base maps (which is what most tuners use as a starting point for "protuning") had some of the CEL's defeated. Protuning usually consists of writing a realtime map to tweak some of the parameters of the tune, but many of the basemap parameters can't be adjusted in the realtime map.

I believe that COBB may be producing a basemap with all the CEL's enabled now (anyone confirm this?). If that is true and they didn't do anything else to affect boost then that would be a better alternative; allowing people to get protuned and have multiple realtime maps while still remaining legal. So people don't have to reflash their basemaps before and after each event when they run 100 octane fuel.

Last edited by FTD; 10-30-2007 at 07:04 PM. Reason: 93 octane, not 94
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Old 10-29-2007, 08:11 PM   #36
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As we get into the cold season it may be increasingly difficult to keep the P0420's at bay. Fliz mentioned this in one of his previous posts, so keep in mind the ambient temperature and your cat's temperature before you do any steady state cruising. I don't believe that some of the CEL's would be occurring if it were the middle of summer. The cat's are just less efficient at colder temps...
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Old 11-29-2007, 08:51 AM   #37
Scooby921
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So I recently swapped in a full APS turboback with their high-flow cat. I need to get back to the local shop and have my engine map modified to enable CEL's to see if this will work. I'll give everyone an update when I figure it out.
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Old 11-29-2007, 10:05 AM   #38
Butt Dyno
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funky View Post
James' 06 has the new CARB-certified Perrin double-cat downpipe, and the car has not thrown a CEL with it.
Got a link? I don't see this on Perrin's website.
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Old 11-29-2007, 10:22 AM   #39
BIGSKYWRX
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it's two seperate pieces it looks like (both catted)
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Old 11-29-2007, 10:27 AM   #40
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the rear (Perrin) piece looks like the O2 sensor is BEFORE the cat, like oe- I would think it would be better to have the O2 sensor after the 2nd cat (not including the uppipe in my numbering ) if your goal is to defeat the cel ????????

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Old 11-29-2007, 10:32 AM   #41
qcslvr30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ButtDyno View Post
Got a link? I don't see this on Perrin's website.
Here you go!

http://www.perrinperformance.com/pro...gory=6&model=2

I have both the front and rear peices. The rear cat is downstream of the O2 so I don't think it's necesary. Jeff (Perrin) was pretty confident that the first cat will be enough to keep the ecu happy. I will likely remove the second one this winter. It must have something to do with the cat being closer to the turbo and therfore getting more heat.

James
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Old 11-29-2007, 10:40 AM   #42
Butt Dyno
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qcslvr30 View Post
Here you go!

http://www.perrinperformance.com/pro...gory=6&model=2

I have both the front and rear peices. The rear cat is downstream of the O2 so I don't think it's necesary. Jeff (Perrin) was pretty confident that the first cat will be enough to keep the ecu happy. I will likely remove the second one this winter. It must have something to do with the cat being closer to the turbo and therfore getting more heat.

James
Cool, thanks. I think this is the cheapest 2-cat solution so far so I am definitely interested

john
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Old 11-29-2007, 03:07 PM   #43
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In the above example, if one were to move the rear O2 sensor behind the second cat, how would you do it? I don't think the wire is long enough.
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Old 11-29-2007, 04:06 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PKer View Post
In the above example, if one were to move the rear O2 sensor behind the second cat, how would you do it? I don't think the wire is long enough.
Buy stainless bung from jegs or something, drill hole where needed, weld it in, and plug the old opening.

The wires may be long enough to get to the engine side of the flange, you can get some slack if you take it off the trans clip.

If not, extend the o2 wires.

Seb, send some of that sunshine over here!
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Old 11-29-2007, 04:14 PM   #45
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I think it would reach without extending the wires. Our PDE puts the sensor pretty far downstream and it reaches without an issue with some slack leftover.
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Old 11-29-2007, 07:05 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mccanixx View Post
Buy stainless bung from jegs or something, drill hole where needed, weld it in, and plug the old opening.

The wires may be long enough to get to the engine side of the flange, you can get some slack if you take it off the trans clip.

If not, extend the o2 wires.

Seb, send some of that sunshine over here!
You make it sound so simple! I suck at electricity and am scared to tear in to my brand new rear O2 sensor wiring. I'm in good with my local exhaust shop, so moving the bung is no probelmo.

Is the trans clip before or after the little harness thingy?

What's up Greg? It's not sunny here, but still pretty nice.
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:16 PM   #47
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It's been a while since I pulled the rear O2 out but from memory: The rear O2 sensor has a clip that holds it in a loop to the transmission cross-member between the sensor and it's plug. Pull the clip and you've got all the slack the loop had in it which -should- be enough to move the sensor as far back as the flange if you wanted to I think.

I don't think Toledo is much nicer than here and it's currently 22 degrees here. There are a very few times when I think moving south makes sense and days when I get in the truck at the train station after work and it says it's 28 and it is raining are one of them.
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Old 11-30-2007, 02:43 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilC View Post
It's been a while since I pulled the rear O2 out but from memory: The rear O2 sensor has a clip that holds it in a loop to the transmission cross-member between the sensor and it's plug. Pull the clip and you've got all the slack the loop had in it which -should- be enough to move the sensor as far back as the flange if you wanted to I think.
This is correct.

You can also clip a few of the zip ties further up from where the plug is (on the part that goes up to the main wiring harness) and get some more slack for the whole rear O2 sensor. This is in the TurboXS exhaust install instructions and works well. The TurboXS exhaust has the O2 sensor much futher back than OEM and there was plenty of slack for it to go in.

Now that I have my APS exhaust there is too much slack.
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Old 11-30-2007, 03:05 PM   #49
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^ your experience w/ the APS unit and cels? Funky earlier in the thread said he would occasional get a cel crusing on the highway (often months in between)
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Old 11-30-2007, 05:04 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGSKYWRX View Post
^ your experience w/ the APS unit and cels? Funky earlier in the thread said he would occasional get a cel crusing on the highway (often months in between)
I currently am running it with a mechanical CEL fix. No CEL of course.

I carried that CEL fix over from my catless TurboXS setup and it was golden. I did remove it for a while and ran without it for most of the spring/summer. At first it was great, didn't have a single CEL but then I started to get a CEL off and on, usually when I was doing 80 crusing on the highway.

However my car burns oil like whoa (pretty sure it's the turbo which is about to be replaced) so I'm pretty sure the CEL is due to my cat being shot from being coated with hot oil over and over for such a long time. So don't take anything I say as gospel at all.

I'm hoping to get this all resolved and a new cat in there soon and then I can report back on how it works w/o the mechanical CEL fix.
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