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Old Yesterday, 09:21 AM   #476
Calamity Jesus
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Originally Posted by Pre View Post
And those reviewers, what weather conditions did they test in? Were they the same ones for the Canada trip?

You don't know me dude. I loathe ADAS.
I think anyone who visits the NASIOC News & Rumors Scrappy & Pre's Old Men's Soliloquy Forum knows you pretty well... And that's the joke.

So you're back to the old "AWD will win in the snow/rain" fanboi argument? Fantastic. You've gone native, sir.
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Old Yesterday, 10:43 AM   #477
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I don't think Honda chickened out, but it did take them a long time to offer up power that's been available in the competition for over a decade.
Least we forget the SRT-4.
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Old Yesterday, 10:46 AM   #478
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I think anyone who visits the NASIOC News & Rumors Scrappy & Pre's Old Men's Soliloquy Forum knows you pretty well... And that's the joke.

So you're back to the old "AWD will win in the snow/rain" fanboi argument? Fantastic. You've gone native, sir.
So now you understand about the price and that it wasn't an insult, great. At least we've got that part done, geez.

And now you've moved your tirade onto the awd will win blah blah...
No......given the exact same price, why in the F would you pick FWD over AWD for the exact same money? A new to market offering should erase your hard drive of facts and data?

AWD is simple physics. Weather gets inclement then which drivetrain provides more traction? Hell in the dry which provides more traction?'. And we get it, you love this thing, big ghey wing on the back of a Transformers car. And you mad a bunch of us AWD nuts don't like it like you do, we get it. But you aren't going to change anyone's minds. Many of us Scrappy and Pre's have owned all this stuff, performance variants in every drivetrain configuration. I can't speak for scrappy but he'd likely tell you the same thing I would. Got a hard on for front wheel drive? Dude, go buy a GTI w/PP for ten k less and throw a JB4 on it. You'll be neck and neck with the Hype R for $9500 less. $9500 will buy lots of tires, and track fees. You know the only thing worse than Subros? Hondbros.
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Old Yesterday, 11:49 AM   #479
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I infinitely regret buying the more weather sensible 2.5RS over a yellow ITR.
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Old Yesterday, 01:18 PM   #480
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I infinitely regret buying the more weather sensible 2.5RS over a yellow ITR.
Totally. I passed on the opportunity to trade my 02 WRX for a black ITR.
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Old Yesterday, 01:23 PM   #481
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I infinitely regret buying the more weather sensible 2.5RS over a yellow ITR.
I saw a new black ITR in the showroom once, wish I knew what it drove like or I'd have traded my GSR sedan on the spot. I didn't drive one til later.
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Old Yesterday, 01:57 PM   #482
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Originally Posted by Pre View Post
So now you understand about the price and that it wasn't an insult, great. At least we've got that part done, geez.

And now you've moved your tirade onto the awd will win blah blah...
No......given the exact same price, why in the F would you pick FWD over AWD for the exact same money? A new to market offering should erase your hard drive of facts and data?

AWD is simple physics. Weather gets inclement then which drivetrain provides more traction? Hell in the dry which provides more traction?'. And we get it, you love this thing, big ghey wing on the back of a Transformers car. And you mad a bunch of us AWD nuts don't like it like you do, we get it. But you aren't going to change anyone's minds. Many of us Scrappy and Pre's have owned all this stuff, performance variants in every drivetrain configuration. I can't speak for scrappy but he'd likely tell you the same thing I would. Got a hard on for front wheel drive? Dude, go buy a GTI w/PP for ten k less and throw a JB4 on it. You'll be neck and neck with the Hype R for $9500 less. $9500 will buy lots of tires, and track fees. You know the only thing worse than Subros? Hondbros.
For me, the only *viable* AWD options, in the segment, in that $35k price range, are Golf R and Focus RS.
The STI is out and I would absolutely buy a Type R waaaayyy before I get an STI with a stock EJ257 under the hood.
Because, if I were to buy any of these 4 cars, I'd be doing track days all year around (3 great tracks around me) and I don't trust the stock EJ25 for track work.

The GTI would be fine for track days, and, although the GTI engine is very similar to the Golf R engine, it's not as tough (Golf R has different heads, exhaust valves, exhaust valve seat rings, cams, piston cooling jets, injectors, radiator, turbo,...).
What we would need is a GTI PP with a Golf R engine a.k.a. GTI Clubsport or something like a Seat Leon Cupra 280.
In the meantime, I think a Type R would be fine, in my case, because no snow next to the bay/ocean and very little rain to speak of until this past winter.
I'm not saying I will definitely run out and buy a Type R, but I'm saying it's a car I could very easily live with.

Last edited by neg_matnik; Yesterday at 02:08 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 02:41 PM   #483
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...speaking strictly on lap times:

The FWD Civic Type-R broke the Ring track record. Put AWD in that same car, how much faster do you think it would've (could've) performed? In the video, it looks decently stable as is.
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Old Yesterday, 03:05 PM   #484
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...speaking strictly on lap times:

The FWD Civic Type-R broke the Ring track record. Put AWD in that same car, how much faster do you think it would've (could've) performed? In the video, it looks decently stable as is.
There's no guarantee AWD would make it faster on that track with the extra weight so performance-wise I don't know how much they stand to gain.....on a smooth, dry track. One thing that has to be noted is that the CTR will be largely useless on a damp or wet track. I can't recall if it was Top Gear but one of those Euro outlets did a comparison of the 2015 CTR vs Golf R vs Focus RS, etc and ended up not bothering with recording the CTR lap times because it was a wet day on the track and they couldn't get any traction.
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Old Yesterday, 03:17 PM   #485
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There's no guarantee AWD would make it faster on that track with the extra weight so performance-wise I don't know how much they stand to gain.....on a smooth, dry track. One thing that has to be noted is that the CTR will be largely useless on a damp or wet track. I can't recall if it was Top Gear but one of those Euro outlets did a comparison of the 2015 CTR vs Golf R vs Focus RS, etc and ended up not bothering with recording the CTR lap times because it was a wet day on the track and they couldn't get any traction.
Right. Making it AWD will add at least 300lbs and will only help in situations where the front tires are lacking for grip. Thus it's only benefit will be accelerating out of tight corners at high g levels where weight transfer unloads the inside front tire. Through all of the high speed twisty corners it's just extra weight.
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Old Yesterday, 04:21 PM   #486
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Originally Posted by heavyD View Post
There's no guarantee AWD would make it faster on that track with the extra weight so performance-wise I don't know how much they stand to gain.....on a smooth, dry track. One thing that has to be noted is that the CTR will be largely useless on a damp or wet track. I can't recall if it was Top Gear but one of those Euro outlets did a comparison of the 2015 CTR vs Golf R vs Focus RS, etc and ended up not bothering with recording the CTR lap times because it was a wet day on the track and they couldn't get any traction.
So, on rainy days you go to the pub instead of the track. Problem solved.
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Old Yesterday, 05:10 PM   #487
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So, on rainy days you go to the pub instead of the track. Problem solved.
This probably explains why most Alaskans have a drinking problem, because it rains a lot here, and they drive FWD cars.
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Old Yesterday, 05:53 PM   #488
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So, on rainy days you go to the pub instead of the track. Problem solved.
Go to the Winchester, have a pint and wait for this to all blow over.
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Old Yesterday, 06:23 PM   #489
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Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
For me, the only *viable* AWD options, in the segment, in that $35k price range, are Golf R and Focus RS.
The STI is out and I would absolutely buy a Type R waaaayyy before I get an STI with a stock EJ257 under the hood.
Because, if I were to buy any of these 4 cars, I'd be doing track days all year around (3 great tracks around me) and I don't trust the stock EJ25 for track work.

The GTI would be fine for track days, and, although the GTI engine is very similar to the Golf R engine, it's not as tough (Golf R has different heads, exhaust valves, exhaust valve seat rings, cams, piston cooling jets, injectors, radiator, turbo,...).
What we would need is a GTI PP with a Golf R engine a.k.a. GTI Clubsport or something like a Seat Leon Cupra 280.
In the meantime, I think a Type R would be fine, in my case, because no snow next to the bay/ocean and very little rain to speak of until this past winter.
I'm not saying I will definitely run out and buy a Type R, but I'm saying it's a car I could very easily live with.
Understood, for you it makes sense. Me, if I was spending that much time at the track I'd buy an AP2, Miata, or something used that is RWD. But I will admit there are certain geographical places that are warm and dry almost year round. They are just extremely few and far between. Here hell no. Not with awd performance vehicles available for the same price. The STI stock tune, now, is heaps better than years past. That much track time I'd buy an extended warranty, would leave the tune and engine alone, and beat on the bish for 7 years.


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One thing that has to be noted is that the CTR will be largely useless on a damp or wet track. I can't recall if it was Top Gear but one of those Euro outlets did a comparison of the 2015 CTR vs Golf R vs Focus RS, etc and ended up not bothering with recording the CTR lap times because it was a wet day on the track and they couldn't get any traction.

This is what I've been saying all along. People act like when it rains we all hide out underground. "We all live underground, it's a virtual insanity..." - Jamiroquai.

Lubs me some rain with an awd performance car. She don't give a F. I've driven and ridden a wet track 4-5 times. After paying track fee up front, taking a PTO day, booking and paying for the motel, etc, I'm riding or driving if it rains. Those are my favorite days because the beotches punk out and go home so those of us there get the place to ourselves.

But take that Euro outlet that tried to do that test and extend that to real life real world driving on the street, same sheot applies. If I own a performance car I want it to be a performance car in all weather conditions, especially damp, wet, and heavy rain. Ice, black ice I'm beotching out, it's bumper cars out there locally. Snow, rain, flood like conditions, let's rock and roll. Can't count how many times in the STI, I'm on the highway in pouring rain, driving like it is dry. Keeping my margins, keeping gaps, but tracking 100% straight down the road. So may times I pass in the fast lane, some Mustang, Camaro, Porsche, Mas, whatever driver, gets pissed they got passed, stomps on it, only to start fish tailing, spinning out and give up. Why my driving punches their ego in the jugular escapes me but they cannot take it, give it a go, and quickly admit defeat and go away. All seen in the rear view mirror.
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Old Yesterday, 08:02 PM   #490
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This is what I've been saying all along. People act like when it rains we all hide out underground. "We all live underground, it's a virtual insanity..." - Jamiroquai.

Lubs me some rain with an awd performance car. She don't give a F. I've driven and ridden a wet track 4-5 times. After paying track fee up front, taking a PTO day, booking and paying for the motel, etc, I'm riding or driving if it rains. Those are my favorite days because the beotches punk out and go home so those of us there get the place to ourselves.

But take that Euro outlet that tried to do that test and extend that to real life real world driving on the street, same sheot applies. If I own a performance car I want it to be a performance car in all weather conditions, especially damp, wet, and heavy rain. Ice, black ice I'm beotching out, it's bumper cars out there locally. Snow, rain, flood like conditions, let's rock and roll. Can't count how many times in the STI, I'm on the highway in pouring rain, driving like it is dry. Keeping my margins, keeping gaps, but tracking 100% straight down the road. So may times I pass in the fast lane, some Mustang, Camaro, Porsche, Mas, whatever driver, gets pissed they got passed, stomps on it, only to start fish tailing, spinning out and give up. Why my driving punches their ego in the jugular escapes me but they cannot take it, give it a go, and quickly admit defeat and go away. All seen in the rear view mirror.

I've read a few posts about this mythical unstoppable STI--but don't you now have a car that is basically failWD if it is too hot or some random sensor/code says so?
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Old Yesterday, 08:21 PM   #491
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I've read a few posts about this mythical unstoppable STI--but don't you now have a car that is basically failWD if it is too hot or some random sensor/code says so?
No sir. As long as there is a straight good to go. May add the Mishimoto PTU/RDU cooler and an oil cooler if I decide I want to do extended track sessions. Never owned a vehicle that didn't need to be track prepped some how. I beat on it like a red headed stepchild last weekend in 90+ degrees and awful humidity in my twisties last weekend. Didn't miss a beat. Even got to test drift mode and had a nice time with the controlled oversteer. Should be called oversteer mode. Was a lot of fun. Mini-GTR, except with manual tranny and so much road feel and interaction. Go drive one. Pure drivers car. No heat problems but my name isn't Pobst.

In the rain, yup the STI is a mf'er, I don't care if it is pouring. Amazing car in the wet. No myths about it. Physics. AWD and diffs that move power when wheel spin occurs. That thing is a tank in bad weather. Can't wait to test out the RS in those conditions.
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Old Yesterday, 11:10 PM   #492
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Understood, for you it makes sense. Me, if I was spending that much time at the track I'd buy an AP2, Miata, or something used that is RWD. But I will admit there are certain geographical places that are warm and dry almost year round. They are just extremely few and far between. Here hell no. Not with awd performance vehicles available for the same price. The STI stock tune, now, is heaps better than years past. That much track time I'd buy an extended warranty, would leave the tune and engine alone, and beat on the bish for 7 years.





This is what I've been saying all along. People act like when it rains we all hide out underground. "We all live underground, it's a virtual insanity..." - Jamiroquai.

Lubs me some rain with an awd performance car. She don't give a F. I've driven and ridden a wet track 4-5 times. After paying track fee up front, taking a PTO day, booking and paying for the motel, etc, I'm riding or driving if it rains. Those are my favorite days because the beotches punk out and go home so those of us there get the place to ourselves.

But take that Euro outlet that tried to do that test and extend that to real life real world driving on the street, same sheot applies. If I own a performance car I want it to be a performance car in all weather conditions, especially damp, wet, and heavy rain. Ice, black ice I'm beotching out, it's bumper cars out there locally. Snow, rain, flood like conditions, let's rock and roll. Can't count how many times in the STI, I'm on the highway in pouring rain, driving like it is dry. Keeping my margins, keeping gaps, but tracking 100% straight down the road. So may times I pass in the fast lane, some Mustang, Camaro, Porsche, Mas, whatever driver, gets pissed they got passed, stomps on it, only to start fish tailing, spinning out and give up. Why my driving punches their ego in the jugular escapes me but they cannot take it, give it a go, and quickly admit defeat and go away. All seen in the rear view mirror.
Wait, so when you're tracking the Miata, you don't really care that you're in a relatively slow car, but once it rains, suddenly you need AWD so you can put in a fast lap? Seems like a contradiction. I did a few track days in the rain in my rwd BMW and had a blast. I didn't care that some Audi was faster in the rain any more than I cared some cars were faster in the dry. It's all about car control and challenging yourself, and awd just seems like a crutch in the rain. You're not getting paid for your lap times.
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Old Yesterday, 11:31 PM   #493
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Wait, so when you're tracking the Miata, you don't really care that you're in a relatively slow car, but once it rains, suddenly you need AWD so you can put in a fast lap? Seems like a contradiction. I did a few track days in the rain in my rwd BMW and had a blast. I didn't care that some Audi was faster in the rain any more than I cared some cars were faster in the dry. It's all about car control and challenging yourself, and awd just seems like a crutch in the rain. You're not getting paid for your lap times.
No, first let's don't twist my words in your civic defense deal or whatever you are doing. Geez talk about breaking out your jump to conclusions mat.

I've said if I was buying a dedicated track car, it would be RWD and would NEVER be fwd for that purpose. Examples given, AP2, Miata. As in you are going to track the hell out of it and it's not going to be your DD. There is a saying, track slut, track whore, because if tracking that much it will get damaged. It's not if, it's when with repetition.

When I mention inclement weather I'm specifically talking about driving, all seasons, all weather dude. For f sakes.

Lap times? I've never cared. I don't even mount a lap timer on my bikes anymore when I take them to the track. I go there to have fun, put a knee down and work on my lines. In the car, hit my braking markers, nail the apexes.
There is always someone faster there so I don't ego drive.

In reference to awd, I'm talking about being able to use the added traction that drivetrain provides in the dry, wet, snow, any weather condition. Street, track, whatever. Other people have to slow way down. Solid awd system underneath you can drive faster, safer. Here is an example for you. I have a FWD DD toaster. It's crap in the rain, crap in anything but the dry. I have to slow down, in the rain watch for hydroplaning, etc. In the STI I could mash the pedal and not concern myself with worrying about traction. I had that car hydroplane on me once and it was because I was past the time to replace my tires.

Make sure you wash your hands. Sifting through sheot for peanuts gets messy.
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Old Today, 01:58 AM   #494
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Some people that are looking to buy a new performance car will never consider FWD, the WRX/STI and RS comparisons end there, the CTR never gets a glance. Those that will tolerate FWD can compare the CTR to the GTI or FoST, both are much cheaper. Toss in A/RWD considerations against the CTR and it yet again gets eaten up by the bang-for-buck competition. That is all assuming you'd even consider FWD for a performance car in the first place. Boasting about being the fastest FWD performance car is like boasting about being the cheapest status symbol car, the qualification (like FWD or cheapest) takes away from the underlying aim (performance or status). What honda did was make a nice car for their fanboys.
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