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08-26-2011, 12:38 PM | #76 | |
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It would take a lot more than sales of another niche car (i.e. Miata) to bring down the costs of producing a rotary. A lot more. But to honest, I don't think Mazda is ever going to consider it as a viable, widely deployed engine now, or in the foreseeable future. If I was a decision maker at Mazda, I wouldn't either. The rotary occupies a very specific niche. You confuse the enthusiasm with "OMG, the rotary is the best EVAR!!" It has plenty of drawbacks, as any rotary enthusiast will tell you. But I ask you this: How many 1.3 engines (or any other engine of comparable size) can make 238hp and scream to 9k rpm, in a compact, naturally aspirated form?
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08-26-2011, 12:50 PM | #77 | |
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Seriously though, the Miata is a piston engine car. Always has and always will be. Anything else would not be a Miata... |
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08-26-2011, 01:00 PM | #78 | |
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the real question is, why should anyone care about an engine's size to power ratio when there is no real world practicality in this design like fuel economy to power and engine size ratio, low end torque below 2k rpm, reliability (talking about this particular 1.3L from mazda)...etc? |
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08-26-2011, 01:06 PM | #79 |
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has anyone ever produced a motorcycle with a rotary? it seems like a natural fit.
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08-26-2011, 01:22 PM | #80 | ||
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Don't get me wrong, I love torque and all that (have a strange, perverse fascination with the 300 SRT8 at the moment), but everything has its place. |
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08-26-2011, 01:26 PM | #81 | |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norton_Motorcycle_Company |
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08-26-2011, 01:50 PM | #82 |
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He said the engines could be MADE to do that (as a lot of people who really race their cars have their engines revving pretty high), not that there are a ton of production engines that perfectly fit that description. But the S2000 had a 9000 rpm redline (not 8800) reduced to 8200 rpm (not 8000) because they decided the 2.0-liter had terrible torque that was ridiculous for a daily driven car, so they bumped up the displacement to 2.2 and lowered the redline to get the same hp but with higher peak torque along with a broader torque curve.
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08-26-2011, 02:05 PM | #83 | |
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seems like a 2.0L flat piston engine could be pretty competitive from a CG perspective also. |
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08-26-2011, 02:23 PM | #84 |
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I wonder if even half of the people who were down talking the RX-8 have ever driven one? The RX-8 was and still is a great car and it makes me extremely sad to see it go. It may not have been the fastest car, but neither are Miatas, S2000's, or WRX's for that matter, but the way it drove was pretty remarkable in my book. I for one am really sad to see it die, and I really hope this is not the end for the Rotary Engine.
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08-26-2011, 02:28 PM | #85 | |
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08-26-2011, 03:02 PM | #86 | |
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08-26-2011, 03:11 PM | #87 | |
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08-26-2011, 03:26 PM | #88 |
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08-26-2011, 03:47 PM | #89 | |
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I've also driven one with a turbo, and I can verify that the extra low end torque and power made the car more appealing, which is why I wonder how different things would have been with a more powerful engine. |
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08-26-2011, 04:15 PM | #90 | |
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1: no intake valves to carbon-foul without the presence of gasoline in the intake tract. 2: quite likely would solve the flooding problem by not needing to saturate the incoming intake charge 3: might also help control fuel flow for stratified burn characteristics, allowing less rich mixtures, less unburned hydrocarbon emissions, and quite possibly a boost in fuel economy, as well. I can imagine two direct fuel injectors paired next to the two spark plugs per housing, for sequential direct fuel injection, and sequential ignition, so that not all of the fuel tries to combust at the "top" of the combustion chamber immediately, which creates more resistance to the following rotor tip at a specific point, rather than continuous building of pressure throughout the compression side of the cycle, until the leading rotor tip reaches the exhaust port. Paul Lamar has some ideas about stratified charge rotaries that include a high pressure air jet, with an anti-reversion ball valve in the combustion-face of the rotor housing, that would feed a small metered volume of high-pressure air into the combustion stage directly, near the spark plug area in the rotor housing, to maintain Air-Fuel Ratio during stratified burn combustion cycles, so that not all of the oxygen is burned up immediately, and further fuel input isn't just wasted. The initial intake air volume could be slightly reduced, as well as the initial fuel input, and both more fuel, and more air could be injected into the combustion chamber as the rotor passes through each combustion cycle, causing it to burn and build pressure longer, rather than all in the first few milliseconds of the rotor's pass through the combustion and compression cycle, and then just waiting for the rotation into the exhaust stage. Paul Lamar's rotary engine website (primarily focused on personal experimental aircraft, but general rotary information, including some good pics) http://www.rotaryeng.net/ Last edited by HipToBeSquare; 08-26-2011 at 05:06 PM. |
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08-26-2011, 04:19 PM | #91 |
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i drove a number of FD's in stock and modified forms. i love the rotary engine. how many 1.3L piston engines can spool a GT35, and still have a 4K powerband? and yes, the FD is one of my favorite sports cars of all time. it's a big list, but it does make it.
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08-26-2011, 05:37 PM | #92 | ||
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I used to bash the RX8 too...until I drove one in anger. Pure bliss in the corners that has only been matched in my experience by the s2000 and the cayman S. Both of which don't have a back seat. Last edited by elirentz; 08-26-2011 at 05:44 PM. |
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08-26-2011, 06:06 PM | #93 | |
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I can only imagine a Mazda competitor to the Cayman R or Boxster Spyder (maybe even lighter), with similar specs. Rotary amidships, backed by a PDK-like quick-shift, no-torque-drop gearbox, with Mazda's SLA front and rear suspension, rather than albeit quite good strut suspension. If it can't be aft-mid engined, I would hope that maybe it could be a transaxle car like a Corvette, or Porsche 924/944. If the rotary engine used more aluminum in it's construction that might actually be a front-mid engined car with a rearward weight bias, due to the transaxle. sounds like a all kinds of track-day and curvy back-road fun. |
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08-26-2011, 06:37 PM | #94 |
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08-26-2011, 07:23 PM | #95 |
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A 2 mpg difference is welcomed when we're talking about something gets mpg in the teens. If we were talking Priuses, then 2 mpg is insignificant in fuel savings.
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08-26-2011, 08:04 PM | #96 |
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18 vs. 20 mpg is still peanuts compared to depreciation, insurance, tires (especially V710s ), regular wear and tear… People make entirely too much of these relatively minute differences, and people driving newer model cars usually don't realize that depreciation is what's really killing them, not gas prices.
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08-26-2011, 08:06 PM | #97 |
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I realize its a 10% increase but I was just trying to note that the s2000 gets mileage in the teens too. Its also anemic at low rpms as well. Its also lighter.
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08-26-2011, 10:29 PM | #98 |
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I think this comparison with the S2000 is technically very appropriate, but irrelevant to the future of the rotary. What I mean is, even if the rotary had the same power, torque, and fuel economy as the F20C, it still wouldn't have a viable future. We are comparing it to the form of piston engine that has become obsolete for the same reasons that will make the rotary obsolete.
Almost everyone is switching to DI turbo engines at this point. Next gen 3 series won't even have an NA I6 in the US market. And while that technology works well with piston engines at this point, we have no reason to believe that it will work equally well with the rotary, and it would be downright moronic to believe that part-time R&D by a small company like Mazda will bring the DI turbo technology for the rotary to the same level of maturity as that for the piston engines. At the end, we will never really know if it would've been possible to develop rotary technology to a point where most of the "inherent" issues would be solved. That's not how history panned out, and the technological gap between rotary and piston engines is only broadening. It is inevitable that this will eventually lead to the death of rotary. If not now, then maybe ten years from now. But barring a major shift in paradigm, rotary will be dead sooner or later. |
08-27-2011, 02:12 AM | #99 |
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Uhm my S2000 generally gets 26 MPG in mixed driving. I've seen as high as 30 MPG with all highway driving. I don't care what the EPA numbers are the S2000 way exceeds them.
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08-27-2011, 01:44 PM | #100 | |
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Although in 2003, when the RX-8 first came out the 325i only had 184BHP. So, straight line performance for the RX-8 is better than average IMHO . |
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