Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Thursday March 28, 2024
Home Forums Images WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Engine Management & Tuning

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.







* As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. 
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-16-2008, 02:02 PM   #126
simon021
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 157532
Join Date: Aug 2007
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Iowa
Vehicle:
2002 MY03 EJ207 E85
Dom 1.5XTR Twinscroll!

Default

I got it figured out. My solenoid must be different, as the 2 ports that are open when it's unhooked are ports 1 and 3 (on the perrin diagram)

it works perfectly now.

My only question is this. It seems to take longer than i expected for my WGDC to ramp up to 100% when i hit the gas. Heres the plot of RPM vs WGDC vs manifold corrected. Is there any way to make this ramp up faster? It takes ~700 rpms to ramp up to 100% WGDC and I would imagine thats killing my spool.



also to clarify my install, i am using the 2 ports on the solenoid that are OPEN when its not energized. one side goes to the compressor nipple T'd to the MBC, other side goes to the SIDE of the EWG, T'd to the MBC.

I also ment to add that as you can see, tapering it still worked perfectly just like Ken said it would. Although I need to adjust my WGDC a little bit, it didnt oscilate at all compared to what I expected.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

Last edited by simon021; 05-16-2008 at 02:56 PM.
simon021 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 05-16-2008, 03:39 PM   #127
bluescoobywagon
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 14911
Join Date: Feb 2002
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: The land of E85
Vehicle:
Not A Wagon!
2011 WRX - 285s on 18x9.5

Default

You can get faster duty ramp up by rescaling the turbo dynamics.
bluescoobywagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2008, 04:49 PM   #128
simon021
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 157532
Join Date: Aug 2007
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Iowa
Vehicle:
2002 MY03 EJ207 E85
Dom 1.5XTR Twinscroll!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluescoobywagon View Post
You can get faster duty ramp up by rescaling the turbo dynamics.
thats what I thought. I actually have a map made with the turbo dynamics cranked up a bit.

could you post up what you would suggest a setting be? I had my turbo dynamics flattened out quite a bit compared to stock and had my boost about perfect before i decided to complicate things and use this method! I think it will be much better once i get it dialed in, but im just curious what kind of numbers you suggest. Also would you scale both continuous and burst?
simon021 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2008, 10:25 PM   #129
bluescoobywagon
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 14911
Join Date: Feb 2002
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: The land of E85
Vehicle:
Not A Wagon!
2011 WRX - 285s on 18x9.5

Default

My boost control method for the GM Solenoid isn't for the faint of heart. You have to have the duty cycles spot on or you'll get spikes. If you get those dialed in, than the boost response is crazy fast. Here is my Continuous table (triggered below -.15 / above .25):

Code:
-2.94	-1.70	-0.31	0.31	0.50	1.70	2.94	4.51	7.00
-3.75	-1.50	-0.25	0.10	0.87	10.00	25.00	75.00	100.00
As aggressive as it is, I could probably zero out the burst table, but here it is anyways (triggered below -.39 / above .39):

Code:
-2.94	-1.70	-0.77	0.00	0.31	0.77	1.70	2.94	4.51
-5.50	-2.50	-1.35	0.00	0.54	1.35	7.00	22.00	45.00
bluescoobywagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2008, 02:50 AM   #130
simon021
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 157532
Join Date: Aug 2007
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Iowa
Vehicle:
2002 MY03 EJ207 E85
Dom 1.5XTR Twinscroll!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluescoobywagon View Post
My boost control method for the GM Solenoid isn't for the faint of heart. You have to have the duty cycles spot on or you'll get spikes. If you get those dialed in, than the boost response is crazy fast. Here is my Continuous table (triggered below -.15 / above .25):

Code:
-2.94    -1.70    -0.31    0.31    0.50    1.70    2.94    4.51    7.00
-3.75    -1.50    -0.25    0.10    0.87    10.00    25.00    75.00    100.00
As aggressive as it is, I could probably zero out the burst table, but here it is anyways (triggered below -.39 / above .39):

Code:
-2.94    -1.70    -0.77    0.00    0.31    0.77    1.70    2.94    4.51
-5.50    -2.50    -1.35    0.00    0.54    1.35    7.00    22.00    45.00
wow thats insanely aggresive. with my EWG i barely need 20% WGDC to sustain 20psi. Although that does give me the idea to rescale the top of the table and include something like your last column on there. That way if there is a large boost difference it just lets the MBC spool it up. I'll have to try that tomorrow.
simon021 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 09:50 AM   #131
bluescoobywagon
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 14911
Join Date: Feb 2002
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: The land of E85
Vehicle:
Not A Wagon!
2011 WRX - 285s on 18x9.5

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by simon021 View Post
wow thats insanely aggresive. with my EWG i barely need 20% WGDC to sustain 20psi. Although that does give me the idea to rescale the top of the table and include something like your last column on there. That way if there is a large boost difference it just lets the MBC spool it up. I'll have to try that tomorrow.
Did you try it out?

I was just looking at one of my last datalogs and I'm able to go from 0% to 98% duty cycle in less than .2 seconds.

Last edited by bluescoobywagon; 05-22-2008 at 10:00 AM. Reason: Crazy fast
bluescoobywagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 10:06 AM   #132
simon021
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 157532
Join Date: Aug 2007
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Iowa
Vehicle:
2002 MY03 EJ207 E85
Dom 1.5XTR Twinscroll!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluescoobywagon View Post
Did you try it out?

I was just looking at one of my last datalogs and I'm able to go from 0% to 98% duty cycle in less than .2 seconds.
It works awesome. I am really loving the boost control now. Plus it's nice to be able to adjust the boost in the cabin. it was colder this morning and i noticed right away i was boostin 22.5 instead of 21.5, a quick turn of the dial and back to where it should be.

I love it! Plus if I ever take it in to be serviced i can dial the boost back down to wastegate pretty quickly and easily without flashing another map
simon021 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2008, 07:27 AM   #133
ride5000
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:
2003 GGA MBP
12.9 / 105+

Default

if you do your own tuning, it is very handy to be able to target different load columns for logging purposes by just turning a knob. you can get a lot of surface mapped out quickly.
ride5000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2008, 05:00 PM   #134
Kjott21
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 116937
Join Date: Jun 2006
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Vehicle:
2011 WRX DGM
forums.pghsubarus.com

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by simon021 View Post
I got it figured out. My solenoid must be different, as the 2 ports that are open when it's unhooked are ports 1 and 3 (on the perrin diagram)

it works perfectly now.

also to clarify my install, i am using the 2 ports on the solenoid that are OPEN when its not energized. one side goes to the compressor nipple T'd to the MBC, other side goes to the SIDE of the EWG, T'd to the MBC.
Is this diagram accurate for how you have yours hooked up?

I am contemplating this setup to get rid of my boost oscillation that I had when I got tuned.
Kjott21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2008, 07:15 PM   #135
simon021
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 157532
Join Date: Aug 2007
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Iowa
Vehicle:
2002 MY03 EJ207 E85
Dom 1.5XTR Twinscroll!

Default

Thats exactly how i have it hooked up. Ports 1 and 3 are the 2 ports that are OPEN when the car is off.
simon021 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2008, 10:26 PM   #136
eminehart
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 11205
Join Date: Oct 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Tweakin your ECU-Portlandia
Vehicle:
2015 WRX
WRB

Default

All I have to say is I absolutely love this setup. It made tuning for boost an afternoon drive instead of a week of tuning. I am learning tuning pretty quick but I have been using an extra gas tank a week doing it. Anything to cut that down is awesome.

I am starting to think it may be possible to run this system on the stock bcs has anybody made an attempt to do this. The setup will be different and have 3 tee's but It may just work. I am a little unsure though.
eminehart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2008, 06:35 PM   #137
Psipwrd
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 102746
Join Date: Dec 2005
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Aviano AB, Italy
Vehicle:
1992 Celica GT-4 CS
Black

Default

I just went from a hallman mbc to GM BCS for the ability to taper, but I wasn't happy with seeing full boost 700 rpms later. I gotta try this!
Psipwrd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2008, 11:51 PM   #138
eminehart
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 11205
Join Date: Oct 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Tweakin your ECU-Portlandia
Vehicle:
2015 WRX
WRB

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psipwrd View Post
I just went from a hallman mbc to GM BCS for the ability to taper, but I wasn't happy with seeing full boost 700 rpms later. I gotta try this!
with my vf30 at altitude I get 15 psi in first and 18 psi in second in a drag race type situation. If I am in second gear and punch it at like 4000 RPM i get max boost. Now this could be done with the 3 port BCS but It is a lot of work and time to eliminate spikes. This is so easy plus I can easily check out different boost levels to see which one flows the most air. It is a nice setup.
eminehart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2008, 08:47 PM   #139
Psipwrd
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 102746
Join Date: Dec 2005
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Aviano AB, Italy
Vehicle:
1992 Celica GT-4 CS
Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluescoobywagon View Post
My boost control method for the GM Solenoid isn't for the faint of heart. You have to have the duty cycles spot on or you'll get spikes. If you get those dialed in, than the boost response is crazy fast. Here is my Continuous table (triggered below -.15 / above .25):

Code:
-2.94	-1.70	-0.31	0.31	0.50	1.70	2.94	4.51	7.00
-3.75	-1.50	-0.25	0.10	0.87	10.00	25.00	75.00	100.00
As aggressive as it is, I could probably zero out the burst table, but here it is anyways (triggered below -.39 / above .39):

Code:
-2.94	-1.70	-0.77	0.00	0.31	0.77	1.70	2.94	4.51
-5.50	-2.50	-1.35	0.00	0.54	1.35	7.00	22.00	45.00
I got the mechanics hooked up and using the same boost map I had with the GM BCS alone, but "Continuous" and "Burst" tables Where do charts and maps like these come from?
Psipwrd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2008, 10:08 PM   #140
Kjott21
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 116937
Join Date: Jun 2006
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Vehicle:
2011 WRX DGM
forums.pghsubarus.com

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psipwrd View Post
I got the mechanics hooked up and using the same boost map I had with the GM BCS alone, but "Continuous" and "Burst" tables Where do charts and maps like these come from?
Kjott21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2008, 10:44 PM   #141
Davenow
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 23676
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: de_dust and Orgrimar
Vehicle:
.

Default

lmao I was about to come into this thread with "you have to be kidding me calling this a new idea, ride5000 did it years ago"


oops
Davenow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2008, 11:14 PM   #142
NSFW
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 140444
Join Date: Feb 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Near Seattle, WA
Vehicle:
05 Stage Free LGT
ATP 3076, 6MT, AVO FMIC

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psipwrd View Post
I got the mechanics hooked up and using the same boost map I had with the GM BCS alone, but "Continuous" and "Burst" tables Where do charts and maps like these come from?
From Enginuity with old ROM definitions.
The terminology was fixed quite a while ago, but this thread is kinda old.
NSFW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2008, 06:47 AM   #143
ride5000
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:
2003 GGA MBP
12.9 / 105+

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
lmao I was about to come into this thread with "you have to be kidding me calling this a new idea, ride5000 did it years ago"


oops
i think the heat down there is getting to you, dave.

ride5000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2008, 01:08 AM   #144
MRF582
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 48219
Join Date: Nov 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Vehicle:
. Always drive
the race line .

Default how to use both ports on EWG plus cap boost with MBC

I've been using Ken's method of boost control on my internal one-port wastegate for a while now and it is THE best way to set boost. Bar none.

However, those that have an external wastegate can only use the bottom port if they want to use this method of setting boost. Until now, maybe...

For reference, let's start with the following diagram.

System 1 - Limit max WDC to 50% to achieve equal pressure at top/bottom port if MBC is disregarded

1) Via tuning, limit max duty cycle to your 3-port solenoid to exactly 50%. This will be the equivalent of running the wastegate with no boost signal lines connected to it. If the top port and bottom port both see the same pressure, boost will sky rocket and hit super high numbers.
2) Install an 'inverse' MBC between the top port and the normally closed (NC) port on the solenoid. This is the port that is closed when the solenoid is off or at 0% duty cycle.
3) Because you have limited duty cycle on the solenoid to 50%, you can now limit pressure to the top port by using your MBC in an inverse fashion. Loose allows more air pressure to reach the top port. This will build more boost. Tight on the MBC or closed will allow less/no air to reach the top port and only the bottom port will see pressure.
4) Profit?

Okay, here are some examples.
WDC = 0%
Pressure will go from Turbo -> IN -> NO -> bottom port only

WDC = 50%
Pressure will go from Turbo -> IN => NC and NO equally. Then you tighten the inverse MBC to limit boost by restricting air to the top port

WDC = 100%
Pressure will not reach the bottom port and blow your **** up.

This system gives you a range of boost options. If you find the boost to be too high even with the inverse MBC at full tight, lower your max WDC and divert more air to the bottom port. If boost is too low even with the inverse MBC at full open, divert more air to the top port by increasing WDC.

Assumptions :
1)50% WDC = equal pressure at the normally open (NO) and normally closed (NC) ports.
2) You are going to start your tuning by keeping the MBC at its tightest sitting and your WDC low. Then gradually increase max WDC to something less than 50%. Then start opening the MBC once your WDC ramps up to a number below 50% and stays solid the entire time at WOT.

Advantages :
1) You can use the top port on your external wastegate for maximum boost.
2) You can be mad 1337.


This is just a theory at this point which will be tested by me at some point in the future. But please, add to this discussion and let's hear your thoughts on whether this will work or not.


Update : Damn, I was making things way too difficult.
Here's the new diagram.

System 2 - max WDC can be 100% to achieve equal pressure at top/bottom port if MBC is disregarded

Everything works the same but now you don't have to worry about limiting yourself to only 50% max WDC. Run 100% WDC as long as you have an inverse MBC between the NC and top port on the wastegate. System 1 above is still 'superior' if you are trying to keep the wastegate shut past what the spring + exhaust gas backpressure wants to do. But most people don't need that. The key to getting this to work is the concept of an 'inverse' MBC.

Last edited by MRF582; 06-27-2008 at 02:07 AM.
MRF582 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2008, 01:23 AM   #145
g00dhum0r
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 159025
Join Date: Sep 2007
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: NOVA
Vehicle:
2004 STI (RIP 2013)
2007 STI

Default

So you can't use the stock BCS or can you? I read earlier in the thread of someone running this setup with the stock BCS and he said it worked good..... can you use just a stock BCS and ecu with a MBC and it will work?
g00dhum0r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2008, 02:47 PM   #146
ride5000
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:
2003 GGA MBP
12.9 / 105+

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by g00dhum0r View Post
So you can't use the stock BCS or can you? I read earlier in the thread of someone running this setup with the stock BCS and he said it worked good..... can you use just a stock BCS and ecu with a MBC and it will work?
there are ways to hook up an oem bcs and a ball/spring interrupt mbc to be used together, but they will not result in the same characteristics as you see here.
ride5000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2008, 08:54 PM   #147
eminehart
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 11205
Join Date: Oct 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Tweakin your ECU-Portlandia
Vehicle:
2015 WRX
WRB

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
there are ways to hook up an oem bcs and a ball/spring interrupt mbc to be used together, but they will not result in the same characteristics as you see here.
The reason for this is a 3 port works a lot like a mbc works it allows manifold pressure to back up then at a point(activated BCS or Open MBC) it will open the wastegate. The stock system is the opposite. It allows air to bleed off through a tee and then closes the leak to open the wastegate. There is no way to set it up to work properly because air would be blowing out the stock bcs and never be able to open the MBC.
eminehart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2008, 11:05 AM   #148
Tgui
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 44771
Join Date: Oct 2003
Default

I installed the same HBC RX last night ride For the STI the small spring was enough. All the way to the left 10 psi, far to the right 21psi. Then again I have no pill and am running a prodrive BCS.

In any case I'm flashing a new ROM in a bit. Anything over 87% throttle and the ECU says eff it, 100% WGDC. I might also alter my turbo dynamics a bit.

Its nice to have that set upper bound!

Old thread and good stuff.

I'll post results when I get the chance.
Tgui is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2008, 11:16 AM   #149
gto7419
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 44256
Join Date: Sep 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Long Island, NY
Vehicle:
05 outback xt
02 wrx wagon - crushed :(

Default

What else besides the wgdc and boost targets are you guys altering? How much of the wgdc throttle % area would you alter for this?

Last edited by gto7419; 09-14-2008 at 01:29 PM.
gto7419 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2008, 12:49 PM   #150
gto7419
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 44256
Join Date: Sep 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Long Island, NY
Vehicle:
05 outback xt
02 wrx wagon - crushed :(

Default

bump for above question and, any chance you want to take a screenshot of your target boost and wgdc? Im wondering how these tables interact with those two...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluescoobywagon View Post
My boost control method for the GM Solenoid isn't for the faint of heart. You have to have the duty cycles spot on or you'll get spikes. If you get those dialed in, than the boost response is crazy fast. Here is my Continuous table (triggered below -.15 / above .25):

Code:
-2.94	-1.70	-0.31	0.31	0.50	1.70	2.94	4.51	7.00
-3.75	-1.50	-0.25	0.10	0.87	10.00	25.00	75.00	100.00
As aggressive as it is, I could probably zero out the burst table, but here it is anyways (triggered below -.39 / above .39):

Code:
-2.94	-1.70	-0.77	0.00	0.31	0.77	1.70	2.94	4.51
-5.50	-2.50	-1.35	0.00	0.54	1.35	7.00	22.00	45.00
gto7419 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What kind of boost control solenoid/boost controller is this? roninsoldier83 Factory 2.5L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.5L Turbo) 3 10-01-2007 10:24 PM
If the pill is your primary method of birth control, learn from my mistake George71 Off-Topic 59 03-15-2005 12:00 PM
mbc/ebc and peak boost in lower gears? chrisfranklin Factory 2.5L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.5L Turbo) 2 08-02-2004 09:29 PM
Joe P. MBC XZ Turbo Manual Boost Controller (ebay no reserve) lstepnio Private 'For Sale' Classifieds 0 03-22-2004 06:43 PM
Need Help: An analysis of boost control methods smiles Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 16 01-07-2002 03:12 PM

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2024 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2019, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.

As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.

When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission
Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.