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Old 09-02-2016, 01:47 AM   #476
1MOFOSTI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bikelok View Post
Easy and free if you have a Dremel and you keep the stock bolts.

Get OEM eccentric bolts or continue to use OEM non eccentric after slotting?

(Will be doing the rear only)
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Old 09-02-2016, 10:32 AM   #477
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOFOSTI View Post
Get OEM eccentric bolts or continue to use OEM non eccentric after slotting?

(Will be doing the rear only)

Continue using OEM non eccentric bolts after slotting.
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Old 09-02-2016, 11:41 AM   #478
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bikelok View Post
Continue using OEM non eccentric bolts after slotting.
Got it, thanks Bike
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Old 01-06-2017, 11:19 AM   #479
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Default more than 2.75 years and 35k miles on GTWorks front camber bolts

Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckc View Post
11 wrx take-off suspension ,
11 sti rear upper control arms,
rear ISC adjustable LCA's,
SPC adjustable toe arms,
3/4 saggy butt spacers and .25 up front (I plan on going to 1.25 rear)
GTWorks front camber bolts (stock top location)
front SPT underbody chassis brace

NT03's 18x9.5 +40
255-40-18 -- Goodyeard Eagle GT's

before GTW bolts and rear LCA's and toe arms was at
-1.1° camber -- 0 toe front
-1.7° camber -- 0 toe rear

now
-1.9° camber -- 0 toe front
-2.1° camber -- 0 toe rear





peace
I got a fair amount of flak for going with the GTWorks front camber bolts on my FXT with WRX take offs. The bolts are designed for stock location and that was cause for concern to some folks; so I want to give an update.

They have lasted through one winter and one year driving throughout NYC, home to the countries ****tiest pothole ladened roads, and I'm working on my 2nd winter with them in NC. They've been on multiple trips to KY, FL, MS, NY, TN and OH. They've been driven hard on gravel and dirt roads, as well as several spirited mountain pass twisty trips. I've put more than 35K miles on them with no additional alignments needed. So I'm standing by the decision and the product. I'll post up when either an alignment has to be done or I get them to 50K, whichever comes first.
peace,
Chuck
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Old 03-28-2017, 06:33 PM   #480
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Anyone have a clue what size sockets are needed for the Whiteline/SPC bolts?

One seems like an 18mm, which I don't have. No American size fits. 19 fits, but slips when turning.

Same with the other side. 16mm fits, but slips. No American size fits either.
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Old 03-28-2017, 06:47 PM   #481
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You must have a 17 and 19 wrench if you're working on a Subaru, so you can be pretty confident the bolt head is 18mm if it's between those two wrenches. Only ASA/ISO bolt head sizing uses 18mm heads. The next size down in ASA/ISO would be 16mm but you say it slips. 15mm is a deprecated alternate for 16mm in that system so you should probably locate a 15mm wrench and see if that works.

This is why I have a full set of wrenches even though Subaru factory bolts only use 8, 10, 12, 14, 17, 19, and 22mm sizes.
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Old 05-27-2017, 01:16 PM   #482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckc View Post
I got a fair amount of flak for going with the GTWorks front camber bolts on my FXT with WRX take offs. The bolts are designed for stock location and that was cause for concern to some folks; so I want to give an update.

They have lasted through one winter and one year driving throughout NYC, home to the countries ****tiest pothole ladened roads, and I'm working on my 2nd winter with them in NC. They've been on multiple trips to KY, FL, MS, NY, TN and OH. They've been driven hard on gravel and dirt roads, as well as several spirited mountain pass twisty trips. I've put more than 35K miles on them with no additional alignments needed. So I'm standing by the decision and the product. I'll post up when either an alignment has to be done or I get them to 50K, whichever comes first.
peace,
Chuck
Just an update on the GTWorks front chamber bolts.
I've now had them on the car for 54,000 miles with zero issues. Zero realignments or problems.
peace
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Old 05-27-2017, 01:18 PM   #483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckc View Post
Just an update on the GTWorks front chamber bolts.
I've now had them on the car for 54,000 miles with zero issues. Zero realignments or problems.
peace
I can't remember if you ever explained why you decided to waste money and replace the stock upper bolts. What were you expecting to get out of that?
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Old 05-27-2017, 11:56 PM   #484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
I can't remember if you ever explained why you decided to waste money and replace the stock upper bolts. What were you expecting to get out of that?
Maybe he just wanted the stock alignment, but with a weaker bolt.
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Old 05-29-2017, 05:30 PM   #485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
I can't remember if you ever explained why you decided to waste money and replace the stock upper bolts. What were you expecting to get out of that?
LOL, I guess salt makes everything better right?
It's not personal buddy, why try and make it like that?
I "wasted" my money on these because I lowered my fxt on wrx suspension and wanted better handling characteristics for curvy mountain roads (like the devils whip), spirited driving and overall handling characteristics. I didn't like the idea of using those tiny lower bolts and didn't want the harshness of coils.

Stock numbers with stock suspension: -1.1° camber -- 0 toe front; -1.7° camber -- 0 toe rear
My setup -1.9° camber -- 0 toe front; -2.1° camber -- 0 toe rear

'11 wrx take-offs, front spt H-brace, STi rear sway bar and upper control arms, ISC adjustable lower control arms, and spt adjustable toe arms.
9.5" NT03's with 255's Goodyear eagle GTs

The difference in stability between a stock SH and mine are night and day. Could that have been achieved with smaller bolts in the lower position— maybe. Would they have held up this long without needing a re-alignment— I doubt it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenkelby View Post
Maybe he just wanted the stock alignment, but with a weaker bolt.
Neither you nor anyone else that hates on these have ever been able to produce any real life examples of these failing. Couple that with 53k miles on all kinds of roads across the East coast and Midwest parts of the county from Buffalo to Miami, Missouri to Tennessee, with zero need for re-alignment. Sorry, but the "weaker" claim is unsubstantiated.



I'll post back at 75k or if I need a realignment, which ever come first.
I'm not mad in the least, I understand change can be hard.
peace
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Old 05-29-2017, 06:05 PM   #486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckc View Post
Stock numbers with stock suspension: -1.1° camber -- 0 toe front; -1.7° camber -- 0 toe rear
My setup -1.9° camber -- 0 toe front; -2.1° camber -- 0 toe rear
So you're claiming the GT Worx bolts allowed you to to get an additional 0.8* of camber adjustment compared to the stock upper eccentric bolt. First, I'd actually like to see that proven by myself or someone else who I trust. That's not personal, by the way, it's just that in 13 years of being on NASIOC the number of people I've seen make a claim only to have it fall apart when checked carefully is legion. You wouldn't believe the number of times I've had someone bring me a car and say "No one can get more than X out of the stock alignment so I want to add this part" and then I can get several tenths more than X just by actually fiddling with it carefully.

Now, if we take it on faith that your camber numbers are really comparing a properly maxed out stock setup vs no changes at all other than the GT Worx bolts, then we need to think about the geometry. The way camber bolts produce adjustment is to have a size difference between the lobe of the bolt and the shaft of the bolt that allows you to shear the knuckle relative to the clevis to produce a change in camber. The amount of adjustment you get is determined by the ratio of the diameters of the shaft and lobe. The bigger the difference, the bigger the adjustment range. We know the lobe can't be any bigger than the stock eccentric bolt or it wouldn't be able to fit into the hole in the knuckle. That means the shaft of the GT Worx must be thinner to get a bigger ratio between the lobe and shaft. This requires an explanation (not from you, from an engineer at GT Worx) as to how the bolt can be as strong as the stock bolt if it's enough thinner to allow a huge amount of additional adjustment (the 0.8* that you claim).




Quote:
Neither you nor anyone else that hates on these have ever been able to produce any real life examples of these failing. ... Sorry, but the "weaker" claim is unsubstantiated.
Your success is an anecdote. It is not proof. The GT Worx bolts may be ok (unlikely enough I'd require an engineer's proof) or you may simply be lucky. Hardly anyone is running these. In fact, you are the only person anywhere in the world I've heard of using these things. With only a single data point, there's know way to know if the bolts in fact have a sufficient clamping force and safety margin to claim they're as safe as the stock bolts.

Given that they must be thinner based on simple geometry, the only way to make them as safe as the stock bolts is to use significantly better metallurgy coupled with significantly better production and quality control.

Simply put, your results aren't enough to prove anything and certainly aren't enough to overturn the general idea that putting a smaller bolt in the upper location on the front is risky.



Edited to add: Wait, did you do the camber bolts at the same time as the springs? If you changed the ride height with the springs you also added negative camber. That alone could mean that the GT Worx bolts add no adjustment compared to stock which means they might be the same diameter and a waste of money (but would explain why you haven't had problems).
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Old 05-29-2017, 07:47 PM   #487
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[quote=williaty;45163005]So you're claiming the GT Worx bolts allowed you to to get an additional 0.8* of camber adjustment compared to the stock upper eccentric bolt.....QUOTE]

To your point it is anecdotal and just my experience, but that's all I have.
The stock bolts required an alignment shortly after I had the car in NYC. And I haven't need another since adding them.

I totally understand where you are coming from on peoples wild claims. And really do respect the fact you are a professional with a lot of experience.
The bolts are a different material—they don't rust and are so close in size to the stockers that I didn't think I would even see gains. The geometry argument is not lost on me, to your point it's physics.

as previously noted by another user:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwm5094 View Post
So here are the measurements:

GTSPEC: 13mm to 16mm

Stock: 13.7mm to 16.4mm

I lowered the car first on wrx struts (vs just springs) with .25" subtle solution spacers up front and .5" saggy butt spacers in the rear, retaining the fxt knuckles and hubs.

The -1.1 number is factory for stock height fxt. You would know better than me, but I read -1.5 is the most you can squeeze out of the 2011' wrx fronts. I'm a little foggy on my first numbers with the wrx takeoffs, but I seem to recall -1.4. and I wanted to get the front and rear camber closer and avoid rub when I went from a 205 tire to 255.
I added the GT works bolts and rear LCA's when I went with the NT03's (18x9.5) as well as an additional .25" saggy butt spacer for a total of .75" in the rear to avoid rub under load. My overall drop was close to 1.5".

The shop that did the strut install and alignment is GTX SERVICE & ALIGNMENT CORP. in Astoria NY. The shop managers name is George and they texted screen shots of the numbers that I never pulled off of an old phone for what ever that's worth.

peace and thanks for the thread.
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Old 05-29-2017, 07:57 PM   #488
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Default Camber Bolt FAQ and Tutorial

The GT Worx bolts are smaller than the OEM camber bolts, BUT GT Worx claims they are stronger than the OEM one. I don't buy that at all, but that's what they say. They should have made a bottom bolt instead of a top bolt.

So the OP is ok putting a smaller bolt up top but not on the bottom.
If the top bolt fails the wheel can lay on its side causing a massive loss of control. If a bottom bolt breaks the wheel will most likely lay against the strut, still allowing you to steer.

Most likely the GT Worx bolt will not fail, but it does not sit well with me. There are better ways to get the numbers the OP it looking for.

Chuckc, I'm not trying to flame you and I appreciate you posting your results. I wish you luck.

Last edited by Bikelok; 05-29-2017 at 08:04 PM.
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Old 05-31-2017, 12:29 PM   #489
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the strenghty of the connection between the strut and knuckle is heavily derived from the clamping force of the bolt, more so than its shear strenght. this is why cam bolts work well.

half inch bolt, 100ftlbs ~=12000lbs of clamping force per bolt!

On the low end the coefficient of friction for clean dry steel to steel is 0.5, so you're looking at 6000lbs of force to get that connection to move.

you also have the second bolt clamping and the connection, so you need 12000lbs of force to get that joint to slip. Unless you hit something you're not going to get that.
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Old 05-31-2017, 01:43 PM   #490
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uofime View Post
the strenghty of the connection between the strut and knuckle is heavily derived from the clamping force of the bolt, more so than its shear strenght. this is why cam bolts work well.
The frictional force in the joint is a function of the tension in the bolt. The tension in the bolt is limited by the tensile strength of the bolt. The tensile strength is related to the square of diameter, meaning that smaller bolts get weaker fast, lowering the total clamping force available. You can offset this by using better metallurgy and better quality control but that costs money which means most aftermarket camber bolt manufacturers don't do it.

Quote:
so you need 12000lbs of force to get that joint to slip. Unless you hit something you're not going to get that.
And yet people manage to make their alignment slip due to non-impact loading on a regular basis. I do firmly believe that when that happens it can be traced back to installer error but the aftermarket bolts have a thinner safety factor making them less tolerant of even small errors in installation.
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Old 05-31-2017, 03:27 PM   #491
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
The frictional force in the joint is a function of the tension in the bolt. The tension in the bolt is limited by the tensile strength of the bolt. The tensile strength is related to the square of diameter, meaning that smaller bolts get weaker fast, lowering the total clamping force available. You can offset this by using better metallurgy and better quality control but that costs money which means most aftermarket camber bolt manufacturers don't do it.



And yet people manage to make their alignment slip due to non-impact loading on a regular basis. I do firmly believe that when that happens it can be traced back to installer error but the aftermarket bolts have a thinner safety factor making them less tolerant of even small errors in installation.
the torque determines axial clamping force, yes ultimately the strength of the bolt determines how much torque it will take before it shears.

here's a handy chart:


a grade 8 1/2: inch bolt will take 23k lbs in tension and 18k in shear (you'll note these bolts are in double shear, so functionally it is twice that)

Yes, I agree install error contributes massively to failures, guten tight is not an acceptable spec when you're working on suspension components...
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Old 08-25-2017, 08:30 PM   #492
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chimchimm5 View Post

All the following camber bolts have essentially the same adjust range; regardless of what is advertised. You can't get more adjustment out of a 14mm bolt. And if you alignment tech is willing to push/pull the knuckle to max out the camber, then the bolt itself is irrelevent for max camber.

SPC/Whiteline/etc camber bolt
PRO: cheapest (or expensive) and found EVERYWHERE; has an antislip tab to reduce change if slippage occurs
CON: narrowest of the bolts with lowest torque spec (~75 ft/lbs) which suggests it's the weakest


I might just end up slotting the struts (as I used this method on a different car and it worked just fine)... but I've got two questions about the above style of camber bolts.

I was going to buy a set of this style to use on my '98 JDM Impreza STi wagon. When looking at offerings at eBay, I noticed some of these style of camber bolts used just one washer per bolt (similar to the ones pictured above)...




... while others used two washers per bolt.




Considering that orientation of the washers appears to be important in regards to actually making the camber adjustment, I'm rather surprised that camber bolts are even offered with only one washer apiece.

So my first question is... Are two washers per bolt superior to having one washer per bolt?

I'm also surprised by the listed torque settings of some of these camber bolts. These ones HERE appear to be limited to 55 ft/lbs. That seems awfully low.

So my second question is... Does a torque setting of 55 ft/lbs indicate that these particular bolts are made of crap steel, and should they be avoided?


Both of my questions may seem to have obvious answers, but I'm hoping they might still encourage some relevant discussion... hopefully civilized.
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Old 08-29-2017, 07:19 PM   #493
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Lightbulb Seems like a good deal to me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chimchimm5 View Post

Actually, I wonder why there is no tabbed washer for the OTHER side of the bolt. I understand that the tightening of the nut holds that end of the bolt in place, but you are relying on the nut to do more than one thing. If there was a tabbed washer on that end, then the nut is only doing one thing: holding the bolt in one axis.

Maybe you could order a 2nd set of washers for the nut end too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vancouver98STi View Post

I'm also surprised by the listed torque settings of some of these camber bolts. These ones HERE appear to be limited to 55 ft/lbs. That seems awfully low.

Does a torque setting of 55 ft/lbs indicate that these particular bolts are made of crap steel, and should they be avoided?
After poking around a bit more on eBay, I've found the following set of 14mm camber bolts. Four of them, two tabbed washers per bolt, and a grade of 10.9 marked on the heads. 12 bucks... includes shipping. I'm in.


Last edited by Vancouver98STi; 10-16-2017 at 07:31 PM. Reason: Added info
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Old 06-03-2019, 03:38 PM   #494
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[quote=chuckc;45163091]
Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
So you're claiming the GT Worx bolts allowed you to to get an additional 0.8* of camber adjustment compared to the stock upper eccentric bolt.....QUOTE]

To your point it is anecdotal and just my experience, but that's all I have.
The stock bolts required an alignment shortly after I had the car in NYC. And I haven't need another since adding them.

I totally understand where you are coming from on peoples wild claims. And really do respect the fact you are a professional with a lot of experience.
The bolts are a different material—they don't rust and are so close in size to the stockers that I didn't think I would even see gains. The geometry argument is not lost on me, to your point it's physics.

as previously noted by another user:



I lowered the car first on wrx struts (vs just springs) with .25" subtle solution spacers up front and .5" saggy butt spacers in the rear, retaining the fxt knuckles and hubs.

The -1.1 number is factory for stock height fxt. You would know better than me, but I read -1.5 is the most you can squeeze out of the 2011' wrx fronts. I'm a little foggy on my first numbers with the wrx takeoffs, but I seem to recall -1.4. and I wanted to get the front and rear camber closer and avoid rub when I went from a 205 tire to 255.
I added the GT works bolts and rear LCA's when I went with the NT03's (18x9.5) as well as an additional .25" saggy butt spacer for a total of .75" in the rear to avoid rub under load. My overall drop was close to 1.5".

The shop that did the strut install and alignment is GTX SERVICE & ALIGNMENT CORP. in Astoria NY. The shop managers name is George and they texted screen shots of the numbers that I never pulled off of an old phone for what ever that's worth.

peace and thanks for the thread.
Here's an update, however anecdotal it may be. I'm now at 92,000 miles with the GT works bolts and no realignments. I'll post back in another couple of years. peace.
chuck
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Old 06-05-2019, 02:01 PM   #495
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GTWORX has never made camber bolts. GTSPEC is a different company.

- Andrew
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Old 08-15-2019, 06:47 PM   #496
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My $0.02 worth,

I found this an interesting thought process.

I sized my camber bolts by the clevis holes. So the top camber bolt was 16 mm iirc and the bottom one was 14mm. The cams then fit snugly in the clevis holes. I placed the tabs that bend in beside the bolts opposite to the cam lobes with the upper cam lobes pointing inwards and the lower cam lobes pointing outwards.

In other words the upper handle points inwards to the motor and the lower handle points outwards to the hub.

Then adjusted my camber. I can get 3.5 degrees if I need it. Currently have a fraction over 3 degrees on the left and about 2.5 on the right (most tracks I race on are right turning predominant tracks). The bolts are Whiteline - grade 10.?? and the washers are also fairly hard with sharp locking points. Bolts are torqued to Whiteline specs.

This is on a Version 6 STi RA Limited.
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Old 07-25-2020, 11:12 AM   #497
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Thank you very helpful
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