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Old 04-30-2001, 01:53 PM   #1
The1one4ever
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yeah, pulling the e-brake to make the back end swing around. That's what I want to do but can't get a hand of it. Always end up drifting. What's the proper way of doing it? I have a manual RS btw. Thanks.

EDIT: If it's not the smartest thing to do why is it performed on the rally races. God it's a beauty to see it be done like that.


Fong,

[This message has been edited by The1one4ever (edited April 30, 2001).]
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Old 04-30-2001, 02:08 PM   #2
Achilles38WRX
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sport compact car mag did took a rally class not long ago in one of thier issues, i think you can do it with awd/manual, as long as you engage the clutch when you pull on the break.

dont take my word for it though.

mark
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Old 04-30-2001, 02:35 PM   #3
ForesterPerformance
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They perform the HB turn in Rally races because:
1. They need to turn as fast as possible.
2. The driver's don't pay to replace the center diff out of their own pockets.
3. The entire car gets overhauled between races.
4. Every single part on the WRC car is probably 500% stronger than the corresponding part on your car.

It IS possible to do this pivot hand-brake turn, but it is potentially lethal to your center diff unless it is really loose. I will type some instructions I have printed out, but they are strictly DO AT YOUR OWN RISK!!!

Here's what I got off of a British Web site:

IMPORTANT - Possibly not the best of techniques to use in an AWD car. I would have to reccomend extreme caution before attempting this technique. The reason for this is the fact that in the majority of cases, the rotation of the front wheels is linked to the rotation of the rear wheels. So if you suddenly lock up the rear wheels you are effectively and instantly and dramatically increasing the difference in rotation speeds of the 2 sets of wheels. Center diff's don' tlike this and have been known to explode.

APPROACH:
Your approach speed should be suitable for the condition of the tires, road surface, and general handling of the car.

180:
To perform a simple 180 degree handbrake turn; brake to suitable speed, pull the handbrake to lock the rear wheels, holding it in your free hand with the button pushed in, ready to disengage it, and almost instantly turn in the direction you want to turn.

WHAT HAPPENS NEXT:
If you have judged your speed correctly, the car will begin to pivot around the front wheels and swing the rear of the car in a tight arc. At the point where you are about 140-150 degrees from your original direction (or 30-40 degrees from your intended direction ) put the handbrake back down and steer straight. If all has gone well, the car should comfortably come to a rest at approximately 180 degrees from its original direction.

HOW MUCH STEERING:
The amount of steering you need is seldom more than about 1/2 turn. This obviously depends on the car and the amount of turns, lock to lock, etc., but it is woth remembering this if only to avoid too much steering. Many people will try to put on loads & loads of steering. I have seen people pull the handbrake & let go of it, leaving it locked in the ratcheted position, grab the wheel with both hands and wind on about 2 turns of lock. This much steering is wasted and can in fact serve to unsettle the grip level of the front tires. This is not the way to perform the handbrake turn. Just enough steering is far better than too much.

WHY HOLD ON TO THE HANDBRAKE?
Many people feel it would be easier to rip the handbrake on and leave it there on the ratchet to allow the use of both hands on the steering wheel. This is understandable as it can feel a bit awkward steering with one hand when not fully in control. My advice is this... if you have to let go of the handbrake, you are not in control of it. As part of the handbrake turn, one of the key control devices is the handbrake! To my knowledge, every rally driver who uses handbrake turns will either use a "fly-off" handbrake (which means it doesn't have a functioning lock button) or they hold the button in and continue to hold the handbrake until the point that it is not required. This means that they are steering with one hand.

OVERVIEW:
It is actually not a difficult technique but can be daunting at first. It would be well worth practising this in a wide open environment, preferably on a slippery surface, before trying ot on tarmac or in tight areas.

{Whew! Glad I can type fast!)

[This message has been edited by ForesterPerformance (edited April 30, 2001).]
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Old 04-30-2001, 02:45 PM   #4
Adrian128
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Actually.. it's quite easy to do, as I found out.. and so much fun. Just remember to get the clutch in before you pull the handbrake,
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Old 04-30-2001, 02:57 PM   #5
SlideWRX
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If you can, try it with a two wheel drive vehicle first. I taught myself on my parent's taurus. Leaving the brake on in that situation isn't as bad.

As for speed, try it at about 20 mph first and see where you go. Chances are, unless it is a really slick road, it won't be enough to get you all the way around, but you can learn from there.
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Old 04-30-2001, 04:41 PM   #6
sol
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They can do handbrake turns in the WRC cars because the center diff is set to the fully open mode by an electric switch when they pull the e-brake handle. Wonderful things you can do when money is no object -like electronically controlled diffs.

Tom B
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Old 04-30-2001, 04:44 PM   #7
Midwayman
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I tried this once on a frozen lake.... even so it wasnt pretty... my mechanical empathy wont let me do it again, let alone on tarmac.
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Old 04-30-2001, 04:53 PM   #8
TaiChih
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Have a Nice Day?

Is everyone forgetting to DISengage the clutch while pulling on the E-brake. Don't forget to put it in first gear, cuz I have found that you would be going to slow to get any power out of second. Check in the mid atlantic forum and look for the'Just call me Justin Makinnen' thread for a well detailed instruction of how to do a proper E-brake turn.
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Old 04-30-2001, 05:50 PM   #9
p-car
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Make your own skid pad
Practice in a big, empty parking lot while it's wet from rain/snow or in a big, flat dirt lot. Don't forget to engage the clutch when you pull the ebrake.

You'll flat spot your rear tires doing this on dry pavement.

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Old 04-30-2001, 06:24 PM   #10
Skeandhu
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Here's a site you might find interesting with tips for AWDriving:
http://www.drivingtechniques.co.uk/

I believe that this is where ForesterPerformance got his info.
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Old 04-30-2001, 09:00 PM   #11
ImprezaL
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Lightbulb

When I do it (rarely on tarmac), I find that pushing the car hard enough into the turn that I start to understeer and lose traction is the best time to pull it. Then it rotates the car enough to make a nice turning arc. In snow, gravel, etc. there's no need to push the turning of the car as hard before engaging the handbrake, obviously because the car easily breaks free... Basically, on paved roads, if you can push the car as hard as you can through the turn without understeering, there's no need for the handbrake... I don't use it that often when pushing hard, but I'm on Kumho's, not the ***** stock tires (which are especially bad on a 95 L )

-Josh
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Old 04-30-2001, 09:28 PM   #12
IowaRS
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Don't take this the wrong way, or maybe I'm stupid, but what does pushing the clutch in have to do with the center diff?? It's not like it's disengaging the diff, the front rear and center diffs work the same regardless of the clutch being engaged or disengaged.

Regardless, Here's the deal. The rear tires DO NOT have to be stopped to make the rear end come around. The rear tires just have to be turning slower than the fronts, or, more accurately, slower than the velocity in the direction in which the car is moving.
The rally guys don't have to totally lock up the rear tires to get the rear end to swing around. Now the more the front and rear speeds differ, and for a longer period of time, the more your center diff will start to work. It's there to equalize the velocity of the driveline, just don't overwork it.

So, don't totally lock the rear, and don't leave the ebrake on for too long, and you shouldn't do any damage to anything.
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Old 04-30-2001, 10:39 PM   #13
p-car
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Clutch in so you don't stall the motor if you do lock up the brakes. Also, it's easier on the gearbox when you over-rotate and the car ends up rolling backwards.

While you're playing, you will over-rotate and you will coast the car backwards - when you do, remember to get the clutch in, get on the brakes hard and stop b4 you hit something.

Better yet - take a driving school that includes skid pad time. For a twist, have the instructor pull the ebrake for you by surprise, practice reverse 180's too, wahoo!

I luv my RS on the track, but to be honest, the scooby's kinda boring on the skid pad compared to a rear-drive car.

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Old 05-01-2001, 12:10 AM   #14
The1one4ever
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Question HT: pivot turning

I like to be able to do the pivot turn while making a U turn. How do I go about practicing for it? What's involve in performing one. What negative side effects might come out of doing this? Just a note, my emergency handle takes quite a pull before it actually engages the brakes. What can I do to increase the engage time? Thanks all.

Fong,
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Old 05-01-2001, 12:19 AM   #15
ImprezaL
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When you say "pivot turn" are you referring to pulling the e-brake to get the back end to come out?
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Old 05-01-2001, 12:21 AM   #16
JGard
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not the smartest thing to do on an AWD car...especially if you have a manual tranny.
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Old 05-01-2001, 12:28 AM   #17
Achilles38WRX
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sport compact car mag did took a rally class not long ago in one of thier issues, i think you can do it with awd/manual, as long as you engage the clutch when you pull on the break.

dont take my word for it though.

mark
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Old 05-01-2001, 05:28 AM   #18
pottsie350
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The reason it's hard on the center diff is when the rear wheels are locked up the diff clutches are trying to stop the front wheels as well. The rear brakes are essentially braking the front end. This isn't a big deal in snow and gravel, but it can really heat up the diff clutches on pavement, and cause them to wear rapidly.

The rally cars are stronger, and get rebuilt regularly. So it's not an issue of survival with them. I'd suggest if you want to do this a lot, invest in a 1.5 way center diff. This type of diff will only engage on the throttle, and will not lock on braking, or deceleration. These types of diffs are very popular in rally racing. Kaaz makes them.

And pushing the clutch in will definitly help you keep the engine from running backwards should you spin 180 and drift backwards.

Most of the best rally drivers rarely use the e-brake, except in the very tightest complete 180 degree corners. Using the e-brake turn is not the fastest way through a corner. You spend a lot of time coasting since the e-brake doesn't provide that much braking force. If you aren't on the throttle, pulling high Gs in a turn, or hard on the brakes then time is being wasted. The best way is to use the full force of the cars normal braking system and time it so that you can rotate the car while on the brakes, then mid way to 3/4 of the way through the rotatino slide, jump on the throttle. It takes practice, and nerve to wait so long to brake, however you will be much faster because of it.

Just my .02
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Old 05-01-2001, 08:21 AM   #19
-JB-
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This is one thing thing that sadenned me when I first heard it. I used the handbrake on my 626 at least once or twice a day in winter and every time I passed through sand/gravel. Nothin' better than doin' it sideways.. You've got me thinking about changing the centre diff now... you bastards
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Old 05-01-2001, 08:44 AM   #20
eastbaysubaru
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It's not that hard, just practice on snow or wet surfaces first, or a good gravel/dirt road. My friend is really good at doing them and he showed me how to do it on a dirt, two-lane road in which he basically did a scandinavian flick into a 180. He's a really good driver though, much better than me. I wouldn't suggest doing this on tarmac until you have the whole concept down, a statement I'm sure you've heard many times before.

-Brian
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Old 05-01-2001, 10:11 AM   #21
The1one4ever
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Yeah, I did it with sand on tarmac. Was slippery enough that I could swing the 180 while parked. It was cool nontherless I will take everyone's advice and not be too hard on the diff. What got me going was when McRae (I think) stalled on this narrow path but he was able to sping the car around with ease. To say the least I was in awe and wanted to imitate him

Thanks for all the info. I didn't honestly expect more technical answer but I'm glad I did. You all made me a better awared person and possibly a more safer driver


Fong,
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