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Old 02-19-2019, 01:57 AM   #226
richde
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Where did I mention race? Projecting now?

IQ has a genetic component, modulated by environment when growing up, and our natural tendency to pick mates of similar social strata and educational status probably reinforces this hereditability further.
I'm not the one that brought up Charles Murray, who DOES make it about race. Besides, potential and results are two very different things. People can be poor and geniuses, have the potential to be an elite athlete and get fat watching TV, or even come from wealthy, successful families and and even attain that themselves, but ultimately, not very smart...although they did have the right opportunities and were taught how to take advantage of them.

Got any references to the existence of these genetically inferior poor people? Sounds kinda ****ty when written out, doesn't it?
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Old 02-19-2019, 03:42 AM   #227
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Richde flying off the handle and assigning positions, im shocked!
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Old 02-19-2019, 04:41 AM   #228
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1) Kids are indeed optional and often a ****ty choice early in life. It harms the kids and it tanks the prospects of the parents if done wrong, and I have little sympathy for the parents in this situation.

2) Cars are indeed a luxury item. Even a cheap car is expensive what with insurance and all that, and they’re great sources of unexpected expenses. They’re great in that they trade money for extra time not waiting for the bus, but if your financial situation indicates you should ride the bus and you stretch for a car instead of waiting at the stop then the consequences of that are on you.
The fact you assume there's a bus to take circles us back to the point about you not really having any clue who these people are, why they are stuck in poverty, or even where they live.

There are parts of the US where there is no public transportation and to suggest they just walk/bike 20 miles to work each day is ridiculous. You know what else harms kids? A parent who is absent because they spend every waking hour not at work commuting because poor people shouldn't have cars.

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I’m insured against death and disability. My loans are just in my name so no one else would be holding the bag. I could get a new job tomorrow as I can afford to move—hell, they’d pay me to relocate anyway so that’s not even an issue. And I didn’t have kids or splurge on cars until my **** was in order.
You're just continuing to prove how far removed you are from the people you're judging.

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Political action could have some affect, but it has no real power beyond broad, usually over-reaching legislation, and that can't happen without a majority of political support. Political action is waiting for others (politicians) to make changes while unionizing is committing to involving yourself in the change with others. I look at it as the passive approach versus the active approach.

With unionizing, you have leverage over business itself. And, who do the politicians actually pay attention to: whining voters or deep-pocketed businesses? Sure, a bunch of people marching with signs gets some attention, but the threat of company shutdowns really get things changed.

I'm just saying IMHO there's got to be that threat of force behind it for change to happen.
I understand what you're saying, but when talking about people who live paycheck to paycheck it becomes a situation where striking would lead to the same sort of financial problems the shutdown did. Hourly workers often don't have the luxury of not showing up for weeks until they get a raise.

What part of current labor laws do you find overreaching and how would scaling back this overreach make things better for employees?

It seems like the no **** step 1 is roll back right to work laws. Allowing employees to opt out of union membership has eroded their power immensely and the only way to fix that is with political action.

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I find this thread interesting and should probably stay out of it. In my opinion, many people "need" and don't realize what a need actually is.

There is no easy button. There is no trick. The envelope system that Ramsey champions is a system for tracking how well or how poorly you are doing financially. It still comes down to personal responsibility, making choices and living with the consequences. Legislation may help certain things improve but it won't fix them.
On the flip side I'd argue that what you guys are defining as needs is far too narrow to the point you seem to expect people to have lives completely devoid of any happiness if they are poor. Everyone needs to find some enjoyment in life no matter their income level and suggesting they are not entitled to any because they don't make enough money is kind of ****ed up.

While you say there is no easy button, in fact the single biggest factor in determining what class you end up is which class you were born in. Lots of people move up and down, but most do not move very far. In no way shape or form does equality of opportunity exist and that is all I am arguing for here.

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We are DINK. It is a choice. Before my wife I always bagged it. I know not 100% but better than nothing. I was either lucky or didn’t get lucky enough. Either way there are no little ****Dreams out there.

I don’t know that it’s really all that impressive. To me it just sounds like one of a thousand standard professional career paths available to almost everybody. We both graduated HS as not that great students. We both worked for a bit while getting our AA at a JC. I was poor and JC was cheap. Neither one of us had the grades to go straight into a university. We both went to a university (met there). She was fortunate enough to have her BS payed for by her parents. I borrowed money to get my BS. We both graduated, worked and struggled with career ups and downs. Her more than me. And luckily, it was mostly ups.

Our (more like my) debt was at a relatively manageable level. We had decent income levels relative to the debt. We ended up in really decent career situations that we worked really hard to cultivate. We (more like her) enforced self-control over discretionary spending. Not having children helped.

At the start when you’re in your 20’s you just don’t really make all that much. Our combined income was probably in the mid 40’s. Still a good income to debt ratio. We only had the school loans, one car payment and a tiny bit of CC debt. It took us about 6 years to get rid of the debt (car included). During that time our combined income rose to about mid 70’s. But we moved to a more expensive area (BAIC) to further my career and we purchased a house.

The ROI on the student loans to get my EE degree is working out ok and the IT career that she built ground up from a Sociology degree is paying off. A decade and a half of hard work later we’re both have senior titles in our career so yeah, we’re making bank. Not going to apologize for that.



There are no simple solutions. I’m not even suggesting that there are. Being an immigrant from a single parent (dad passed early) family where all children were able to secure decent living to great careers, you’re never going to convince me that the opportunities are not there. I also had many cousins that made out OK through both the college and non-college path. Also seen other family members struggle because of poor choices. I would never claim that everybody had the same opportunities but I would also never see it as having nothing available if you try really hard. But sometimes you get the **** end of the stick. That happens.

My wife paid for an abortion. Her friend’s. I believe that birth control, abortion and even sterilization should be available for free below a certain income level. Outside of that there’s always adoption. I had one friend from my youth that went that route. IIRC, she was 15. I don’t know how she feels about that now (lost touch). I imagine that’s a tough thing. I don’t know that it did anything to lift her from poverty. Hopefully the child she gave up is doing ok.

As for buying POS and living with it. Been there done that. They taught me how to turn my own wrenches. I had a goal in mind and an expensive car was not going to get me there. I had cousins that went the other route. Work hard/poor, party hard and drove rich. Always reaching to the edge and beyond their means. Decades later, these are the ones that still struggle today.


If you agree that not everyone receives the same opportunities, and that receiving those opportunities allowed you to succeed in life, I don't see how the next logical step in this isn't supporting increased efforts to give more people access to those opportunities.

Sex ed is just one more area there is horrible inequality leading to significant problems, especially in the south. If you don't ever teach kids about sex and just talk about Jesus and abstinence then is the 16 year old girl who's pregnant the right place to point the finger, or should we maybe address the people who did not provide her with the information she needed to make a better decision?

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A few of you have good “bootstrap” stories in here, and good for you. The rest were born into privilege: whether that’s middle or upper-middle class or white, or CIS, etc. Me included. I hope you at least recognize it.

I had all those privileges growing up but lived in an area where many did not. My home town in western PA is dying because the steel mills and coal mines closed and weren’t replaced by anything. If you want to look at the whole country and talk about averages, most of you have never been to average America.
I truly do not understand why people cannot admit this. I do not feel "guilty" about my privilege in life, I feel grateful and wish others could have the same opportunity. And I make way less money than most of you guys.
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Old 02-19-2019, 08:19 AM   #229
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And just like that, we've arrived at PP.
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Old 02-19-2019, 08:49 AM   #230
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And just like that, we've arrived at PP.
What, are you triggered? (😉 We were bound to get here)

At least no one made any comparisons to Hilter or Nazi Germany ........yet.
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Old 02-19-2019, 08:58 AM   #231
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I wonder how many people here know someone that was truly "dirt poor?"

I went to school with some of those kids growing up. They came to school dirty, got free lunch, and lived in what most people would consider a shack.

They got picked on endlessly...

If you don't think the odds are stacked to be almost insurmountable for someone like that...
Being born in a small rural town in SC, and the child of tobacco farm workers, this was more of the norm than the exception. Those who keep quoting that people need to elevate themselves by education or even by moving have no concept of what truly being poor is. When a family has to save each week to buy a loaf of bread and a jar or peanut butter will have no funds to afford a move. Much less any form of higher education.
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Old 02-19-2019, 09:18 AM   #232
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In 2000 I was making $26k/yr. In 2019 money that's, wait for it... ~$40k/yr. I had no issues living on that. I was fortunate that I was in good health and zero debt (worked my ass off for a scholarship).

I had a cheap 1 bedroom apartment, a new car, saving for retirement (not a lot, but some), and was still able to save $200/mo. for savings. Had I not opted for the new car I could have saved more or used that money for student loans (if I were in that boat). I also then worked a 2nd job to afford some toys (nice TV, good speakers, etc.). I didn't need any of the toys that's why I got the 2nd job. I wasn't going to spend my "real" money on toys.

$40k/yr. is not (IMO) enough to raise a family though. But is plenty for a single person. If I needed I could have always moved in with roommates if I couldn't afford a place on my own. Or got a 2nd job & not bought toys.
In 2000 that might be possible. Real Estate in Denver has grown at a much faster rate than inflation. Check out apartments.com and see what a 1 bedroom is running for out here. My 55k salary after 6% goes into a roth nets $2800 a month. So we could say 40k gets you net somewhere at $2000 a month.

Go look at rent here in Denver and see if you could make $2000 a month work for a 1 bedroom.
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Old 02-19-2019, 09:26 AM   #233
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A few of you have good “bootstrap” stories in here, and good for you. The rest were born into privilege: whether that’s middle or upper-middle class or white, or CIS, etc. Me included. I hope you at least recognize it.

I had all those privileges growing up but lived in an area where many did not. My home town in western PA is dying because the steel mills and coal mines closed and weren’t replaced by anything. If you want to look at the whole country and talk about averages, most of you have never been to average America.
CN: anecdotal evidence about there being no one factor involved in people's financial situations.

I grew up in a solidly middle class family. My parents were both divorced and remarried, so outside of that things were pretty stable. I went to good schools (up through high school), ate well, play in after school sports, had some luxury stuff like a nintendo, good bike, etc. Pretty much what you'd expect a regular middle class upbringing would be like.

At 20, the girl I had been seeing on and off for a couple of years decided to stop taking her birth control and got pregnant. I had a daughter 5 days before I turned 21. My parents basically said "Well, you're an adult now, so you're on your own". By 22 I was a single father completely on my own.

I made my way through college on my own, learning a trade while I was working part time on the side. I took out school loans, and by my last year tuition was going up faster than financial aid was allowing for, so I was using a credit card and personal loans to pay for everything.

Sometimes I wonder if I should have worked instead of going to college. Tuition went from $3100 a semester to $7100 a semester in the time I was there. I make probably $10/hr more than I would have without a degree, but I also wouldn't be paying $600+ a month in student debt.

Wife and I aren't struggling, but we are pay check to pay check. I'm able to pay in to my 401K, but can't put much away after that. We don't live extravagantly, we rarely eat out, and we don't take vacations.

We're your average American family just trying to get by.

It also doesn't help that I get financial advice from 60 year old guys who say "When I was your age....". Yea, when you were my age a house was $75K, gas was $0.80/gallon, you could work a ****ty summer job and pay for a year of college, and your company paid the entirety of your health insurance all while making about what I'm making now.

Or, conversely I get advice from people closer to my age who say "just sacrifice and pay off your debt". It's easy to say when your parents paid for your college, are a DINK family, and your parents fronted the initial costs of your business you're trying to get going.

Unfortunately, there's no single thing you can put your finger on. Wage stagnation, keeping up with the Jones', rising education and healthcare costs, out of control auto loans, childcare costs, fuel, and energy costs all play a huge role.

Where I'm sitting now, it seems like a dollar buys less than it use to.


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Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
I definitely recognize it.

My parents scrimped for me and my sister to go to a private school even as my mom pushed her wire shopping cart to Woolworth’s to shop for items on sale. We were fortunate enough to grow up in a stable, two parent household with no food or housing insecurity. And then there’s Integra’s implied point that academic performance is in large point an expression of what genetics one’s parents passed down.

So while I wasn’t born with a silver spoon in my mouth, I was at least born with the potential to walk along the knife’s edge, if you will.

But those are the breaks. We don’t live in some utopia/dystopia where the state raises kids in identical conditions from infancy to majority, for better or worse. The question here is of what people do as adults once they’re supposed to be adulting.
It's funny, because from my perspective you did grow up with a silver spoon in your mouth.
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Old 02-19-2019, 09:32 AM   #234
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Being born in a small rural town in SC, and the child of tobacco farm workers, this was more of the norm than the exception. Those who keep quoting that people need to elevate themselves by education or even by moving have no concept of what truly being poor is. When a family has to save each week to buy a loaf of bread and a jar or peanut butter will have no funds to afford a move. Much less any form of higher education.
I've avoided this thread because I'm sure it'll just piss me off. I grew up poor, but not "dirt" poor. At one point in my teens I was relegated to living in a shed and all of my belongings fit in a paper bag. If not for my grandmother, I don't know where I'd be. She gave me what she could, a couch, a roof over my head and food after she found out I was living in said shed. The insidious nature of poverty is that its first effect is narrowing your choices and all the choices are bad. Fix the car or pay the electric bill? Don't fix the car, lose your job. Rent or food? One low wage job definitely won't allow you to survive on your own. Do you take a second one to eek by? If you do, you can kiss goodbye any possibility of going to school at night to better your situation. Have a kid? There's no choice anymore at all. That's the reality of the working poor. Poverty is a trap and it's a damned hard one to escape. I'm lucky I did.
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Old 02-19-2019, 09:45 AM   #235
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It's funny, because from my perspective you did grow up with a silver spoon in your mouth.
https://digitalsynopsis.com/inspirat...d-toby-morris/
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Old 02-19-2019, 10:51 AM   #236
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I'm not the one that brought up Charles Murray, who DOES make it about race. Besides, potential and results are two very different things. People can be poor and geniuses, have the potential to be an elite athlete and get fat watching TV, or even come from wealthy, successful families and and even attain that themselves, but ultimately, not very smart...although they did have the right opportunities and were taught how to take advantage of them.

Got any references to the existence of these genetically inferior poor people? Sounds kinda ****ty when written out, doesn't it?
I referenced Charles Murray's Coming Apart, not The Bell Curve. Again, projecting.

A genetic component to IQ is not under debate in the literature. The debate is of how much the environment changes it. Here's one example paper on how the degree of heritability of IQ changes based off of SES:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0030320

And here's one from, yes, Charles Murray, with a race-agnostic look at the effect of eliminating SES differences and what that'd imply for outcomes:

https://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED429148

It was written for AEI, a right-wing think tank. That doesn't mean it's wrong even though it triggers you.
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Old 02-19-2019, 10:57 AM   #237
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I referenced Charles Murray's Coming Apart, not The Bell Curve. Again, projecting.

A genetic component to IQ is not under debate in the literature. The debate is of how much the environment changes it. Here's one example paper on how the degree of heritability of IQ changes based off of SES:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0030320

And here's one from, yes, Charles Murray, with a race-agnostic look at the effect of eliminating SES differences and what that'd imply for outcomes:

https://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED429148

It was written for AEI, a right-wing think tank. That doesn't mean it's wrong even though it triggers you.
Tag this for later reading.

I've always wondered if a race/nationality/people may or may not display a trait based on the culture fostering a trait?

Like Asian cultures focusing on academics displaying higher than average IQs, or people from Iceland displaying higher than average strength, or women from pacific islander races displaying wider than average hips, etc.
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Old 02-19-2019, 10:58 AM   #238
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It's not even the least bit funny since it's true.
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Old 02-19-2019, 11:02 AM   #239
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CN: anecdotal evidence about there being no one factor involved in people's financial situations.

I grew up in a solidly middle class family. My parents were both divorced and remarried, so outside of that things were pretty stable. I went to good schools (up through high school), ate well, play in after school sports, had some luxury stuff like a nintendo, good bike, etc. Pretty much what you'd expect a regular middle class upbringing would be like.

At 20, the girl I had been seeing on and off for a couple of years decided to stop taking her birth control and got pregnant. I had a daughter 5 days before I turned 21. My parents basically said "Well, you're an adult now, so you're on your own". By 22 I was a single father completely on my own.

I made my way through college on my own, learning a trade while I was working part time on the side. I took out school loans, and by my last year tuition was going up faster than financial aid was allowing for, so I was using a credit card and personal loans to pay for everything.

Sometimes I wonder if I should have worked instead of going to college. Tuition went from $3100 a semester to $7100 a semester in the time I was there. I make probably $10/hr more than I would have without a degree, but I also wouldn't be paying $600+ a month in student debt.

Wife and I aren't struggling, but we are pay check to pay check. I'm able to pay in to my 401K, but can't put much away after that. We don't live extravagantly, we rarely eat out, and we don't take vacations.

We're your average American family just trying to get by.

It also doesn't help that I get financial advice from 60 year old guys who say "When I was your age....". Yea, when you were my age a house was $75K, gas was $0.80/gallon, you could work a ****ty summer job and pay for a year of college, and your company paid the entirety of your health insurance all while making about what I'm making now.

Or, conversely I get advice from people closer to my age who say "just sacrifice and pay off your debt". It's easy to say when your parents paid for your college, are a DINK family, and your parents fronted the initial costs of your business you're trying to get going.

Unfortunately, there's no single thing you can put your finger on. Wage stagnation, keeping up with the Jones', rising education and healthcare costs, out of control auto loans, childcare costs, fuel, and energy costs all play a huge role.

Where I'm sitting now, it seems like a dollar buys less than it use to.




It's funny, because from my perspective you did grow up with a silver spoon in your mouth.
Oh, your girlfriend just "got pregnant"? That's a nice, passive way to write your own role in this out of the picture. You're getting to live with your choice, and from my cynical perspective outside your house you're not helping it either with your choices, the CTS-V for a long commute in particular. You're trading near-term enjoyment for your longer term prospects, and then you're passively throwing your hands up.
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Old 02-19-2019, 11:04 AM   #240
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Tag this for later reading.

I've always wondered if a race/nationality/people may or may not display a trait based on the culture fostering a trait?

Like Asian cultures focusing on academics displaying higher than average IQs, or people from Iceland displaying higher than average strength, or women from pacific islander races displaying wider than average hips, etc.
Yeah, that's why it's hard to interpret studies that show differences in mean IQ across different ethnic groups. (And there are these differences, which we don't talk about but which are there. The open question is why they're there.)

Groups don't just differ in genetics but also culture, and as that comic shows the effects of upbringing/expectations/social networks have a large role to play down the road, for better or worse.
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Old 02-19-2019, 11:05 AM   #241
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In 2000 that might be possible. Real Estate in Denver has grown at a much faster rate than inflation. Check out apartments.com and see what a 1 bedroom is running for out here. My 55k salary after 6% goes into a roth nets $2800 a month. So we could say 40k gets you net somewhere at $2000 a month.

Go look at rent here in Denver and see if you could make $2000 a month work for a 1 bedroom.
Try rent.com:
Aria Apartments
2791 W 52nd Avenue, Bldg 1-103, Denver, CO 80221 Map
$392+ 1-2 Beds

Welton Park Apartments
2300 Welton St, Denver, CO 80205 Map
$472+ Studio-3 Beds

Mount Loretto
3101 S Federal Blvd, Denver, CO 80236 Map
$385+ 1-4 Beds

There's a few others around $500.
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Old 02-19-2019, 11:07 AM   #242
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Oh, your girlfriend just "got pregnant"? That's a nice, passive way to write your own role in this out of the picture.
Are you arguing that poor people with less access to education and often more absent parents (ie. less sex ed) should be more responsible with their sex than wealthy kids?

I too trust my partner when she's telling me she's still taking birth control, and therefor I don't wear 3 rubbers on top of that.

Tobylazur, from my reading, took responsibility for this, by raising his kid as a single parent and going through school, he didn't walk away, leave the kid with someone else or refuse to deal with it.

He's simply saying that there's no reason it should be so difficult in this country to do that completely normal human thing we all do, especially in our youth: Make some mistakes.
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Old 02-19-2019, 11:13 AM   #243
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Try rent.com:
Aria Apartments
2791 W 52nd Avenue, Bldg 1-103, Denver, CO 80221 Map
$392+ 1-2 Beds

Welton Park Apartments
2300 Welton St, Denver, CO 80205 Map
$472+ Studio-3 Beds

Mount Loretto
3101 S Federal Blvd, Denver, CO 80236 Map
$385+ 1-4 Beds

There's a few others around $500.
Can you post specific listings? Because in Thurston County the average 1 bedroom price is around $1,050 and in Colorado it's even higher. You can't even find a room for <$500 around here and I'm 60 miles away from Seattle.

If I can get a 1 bedroom apartment for $385 I'll probably move.
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Old 02-19-2019, 11:20 AM   #244
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On the flip side I'd argue that what you guys are defining as needs is far too narrow to the point you seem to expect people to have lives completely devoid of any happiness if they are poor. Everyone needs to find some enjoyment in life no matter their income level and suggesting they are not entitled to any because they don't make enough money is kind of ****ed up.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2017/...e-entertained/

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So, if you already have plenty of money, you should go right on ahead and continue with the more expensive entertainment options. But if you have any use for more money, it could pay very well to at least consider some of the free or profitable things.
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Old 02-19-2019, 11:22 AM   #245
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If the primary topic of discussion here is a hypothetical household making middle to upper middle class income yet live paycheck to paycheck, then yes, in many of those cases, lack of personal responsibility may very well play a part.

But I still maintain the position that resolving poverty, underemployment and the systemic challenges faced in this country will largely tackle the issues in the middle class, as a lot of the things you can implement will have positive impacts across the board.
I agree with this. We've drifted from where I was going with this thread initially, which is totally fine since OT after all.

Instead people seem more apt to bring up the "dirt poor", to quote this thread. (And living in a shed with one's belonging in a paper bag does count, IMO.)

The dirt poor are not those taking out loans for F-150s. They're probably not even using banks. I have no ire to direct towards them.
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Old 02-19-2019, 11:24 AM   #246
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again, the irony is astounding.


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But Mr. Money Mustache, I Enjoy These Things! Don’t take them away from me!

This is probably the root of the problem, and the difference between an average life and a life of deep, radiant satisfaction.

Could you do without ordering some useless garbage off of Amazon for even a month?
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Old 02-19-2019, 11:25 AM   #247
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Are you arguing that poor people with less access to education and often more absent parents (ie. less sex ed) should be more responsible with their sex than wealthy kids?

I too trust my partner when she's telling me she's still taking birth control, and therefor I don't wear 3 rubbers on top of that.

Tobylazur, from my reading, took responsibility for this, by raising his kid as a single parent and going through school, he didn't walk away, leave the kid with someone else or refuse to deal with it.

He's simply saying that there's no reason it should be so difficult in this country to do that completely normal human thing we all do, especially in our youth: Make some mistakes.
If one's life will be totally rocked by a certain decision like having a kid early on then yes, I think it'd be prudent to be extra safe about it.

I agree that it's commendable that Toby stepped up for his kid and wife. What would you propose to have made his particular path easier that's not rife with moral hazard?
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Old 02-19-2019, 11:26 AM   #248
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again, the irony is astounding.




Could you do without ordering some useless garbage off of Amazon for even a month?
Do you hear me complaining about money? If not, then what the **** is your problem with my habits?
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Old 02-19-2019, 11:26 AM   #249
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Can you post specific listings? Because in Thurston County the average 1 bedroom price is around $1,050 and in Colorado it's even higher. You can't even find a room for <$500 around here and I'm 60 miles away from Seattle.

If I can get a 1 bedroom apartment for $385 I'll probably move.
OT doesn't do homework.

Go to rent.com > denver, co > search > Max price $600

Edit: also there's a some sub $600 apartments in Seattle on rent.com too.

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Old 02-19-2019, 11:28 AM   #250
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Do you hear me complaining about money? If not, then what the **** is your problem with my habits?
the irony is you linking to an article about how consumerism is a hollow pursuit.
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