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Old 04-03-2020, 11:36 AM   #26
T-37
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**** you Toyota USA.
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Old 04-03-2020, 01:14 PM   #27
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Oh, good, a watered down FWD tepid hatch. Just what no one asked for.

Either build a proper performance model (GR4) or stick to vanilla Uber-mobiles. This half assed attempt appeals to nobody.
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Old 04-03-2020, 01:33 PM   #28
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It would be funny if all the people who wanted to see the Yaris GR-4 come to the NA market had a similar petition or campaign urging Toyota USA to sell it here mounts a "F U Toyota USA" response in the wake of this announcement.
"While you won't be getting the Yaris GR-4, we'll give you two GR-badged half-assed somethings instead!"
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Old 04-03-2020, 04:55 PM   #29
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they will hold this eventual sales failure as proof that America doesn't buy small performance cars.
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Old 04-03-2020, 06:14 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hi5.0 View Post
It would be funny if all the people who wanted to see the Yaris GR-4 come to the NA market had a similar petition or campaign urging Toyota USA to sell it here mounts a "F U Toyota USA" response in the wake of this announcement.
"While you won't be getting the Yaris GR-4, we'll give you two GR-badged half-assed somethings instead!"
Yeah, there's a reason a petition for the GR4 existed and not for a FWD sporty hatch.
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Old 04-03-2020, 07:15 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-rock240 View Post
Sorry Scrappy, respectfully I'm with Pre here. I was ready to make a deposit on the GR4.
Hey man we all
Donít have to agree

Pre hardly ever agrees with me but we are cool
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Old 04-03-2020, 07:40 PM   #32
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Iíd love to see the Yaris GR-4 come here. But I really donít think it would sell well. The real number of sales is a small fraction of petition signers.

Expensive AWD hot hatches are a hard sell ó just look at Golf R sales. Make one thatís even smaller in size and at best, that market will be split, not grow. How much profit would that be with a split market? Not much... Even at WRX/GTI pricing the size of a Yaris appeals only to us hardcore enthusiasts ó a smaller subset of that market.

A FWD GR Corolla is the best gamble in NA imo... against the GTI or Veloster N. and thatís also a tough feat. We might not even get that either.

I blame NAís love of excess... large, heavy, lifted overkill CUVs, not Toyota or any car manufacturer, tbh.
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Old 04-03-2020, 09:49 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littledrummerboy View Post
Iíd love to see the Yaris GR-4 come here. But I really donít think it would sell well. The real number of sales is a small fraction of petition signers.

Expensive AWD hot hatches are a hard sell ó just look at Golf R sales. Make one thatís even smaller in size and at best, that market will be split, not grow. How much profit would that be with a split market? Not much... Even at WRX/GTI pricing the size of a Yaris appeals only to us hardcore enthusiasts ó a smaller subset of that market.

A FWD GR Corolla is the best gamble in NA imo... against the GTI or Veloster N. and thatís also a tough feat. We might not even get that either.

I blame NAís love of excess... large, heavy, lifted overkill CUVs, not Toyota or any car manufacturer, tbh.
I just went to the Toyota website to double check rear legroom and now I'm really confused.
The Corolla hatchback has 29.9" of rear legroom; that's not much at all.
The new 2020 Yaris hatchback has 34.4" of rear legroom. Yes, I know, , right?
In fact, EPA passenger volume for the Yaris is almost 3 cu.ft larger than in the Corolla with Yaris being nearly 600 lbs lighter.
So, yeah, at this point, I better understand what Sid and Pre are coming from.
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Old 04-03-2020, 09:54 PM   #34
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Weird. My '14 Corolla had a ton of rear legroom. Far more than my GTI and felt as roomy as my '11 Legacy.
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Old 04-03-2020, 10:00 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO View Post
Weird. My '14 Corolla had a ton of rear legroom. Far more than my GTI and felt as roomy as my '11 Legacy.
Yeah, the Corolla sedan has a good amount of rear legroom (almost 35" for MY2019/MY2020); but, unless it's a typo, the hatchback has nearly 5" less !
Toyota lost it on this one .
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Old 04-03-2020, 10:57 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littledrummerboy View Post
I'd love to see the Yaris GR-4 come here. But I really don't think it would sell well. The real number of sales is a small fraction of petition signers.

Expensive AWD hot hatches are a hard sell - just look at Golf R sales.
The Golf R imo is a perfect explanation for why the segment is lagging.

The Golf R is fast, great looking with great interior, very capable, practical, refined, and boring. Ok, I haven't driven one, but I've driven several GTIs, and what they lack would not be filled by more power and AWD.

These cars need to be raw, exhilarating, feel special, and sacrifice comfort for rawness, cause you really can't have both.

I could afford a Golf R easily, but it doesn't excite me, cause it's not special or exciting enough to justify $40k. Same for anything BMW makes these days.

The GR4, if it's as raw and involving as some say, is finally a car that remembers why people used to buy these cars. Not cause they were fast, but because they were as the Brits say, hooligans. I can't think of anything on the market that fits that bill, and that's why the GR4 would sell - it would instantly corner the market since it has zero competition.
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Old 04-03-2020, 11:11 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
I just went to the Toyota website to double check rear legroom and now I'm really confused.
The Corolla hatchback has 29.9" of rear legroom; that's not much at all.
The new 2020 Yaris hatchback has 34.4" of rear legroom. Yes, I know, , right?
In fact, EPA passenger volume for the Yaris is almost 3 cu.ft larger than in the Corolla with Yaris being nearly 600 lbs lighter.
So, yeah, at this point, I better understand what Sid and Pre are coming from.
Tiny back seat and tiny trunk - I don't get the Corolla hatch. It's like it's for people who want a Toyota, and don't care about anything else.
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Old 04-04-2020, 03:06 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
I just went to the Toyota website to double check rear legroom and now I'm really confused.
The Corolla hatchback has 29.9" of rear legroom; that's not much at all.
The new 2020 Yaris hatchback has 34.4" of rear legroom. Yes, I know, , right?
In fact, EPA passenger volume for the Yaris is almost 3 cu.ft larger than in the Corolla with Yaris being nearly 600 lbs lighter.
So, yeah, at this point, I better understand what Sid and Pre are coming from.
Now remember that the current Yaris is actually just a rebadged Mazda 2. You have to look at specs of the new Japan Yaris to get an idea on what the Yaris GR rear legroom would be.
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Old 04-04-2020, 07:52 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
I just went to the Toyota website to double check rear legroom and now I'm really confused.
The Corolla hatchback has 29.9" of rear legroom; that's not much at all.
The new 2020 Yaris hatchback has 34.4" of rear legroom. Yes, I know, , right?
In fact, EPA passenger volume for the Yaris is almost 3 cu.ft larger than in the Corolla with Yaris being nearly 600 lbs lighter.
So, yeah, at this point, I better understand what Sid and Pre are coming from.
I sat in the corolla hatchback when I was in the Toyota showroom in January and yeah, the rear is a tad claustrophobic. Itís weird what they did with it. But, itís one figure, and its negligible when you actually see the Yaris. The Yaris is smaller in overall length, width, and trunk space than a corolla hatchback. And with the price a GR-4 would ask, it would only appeal to us old farts with multiple cars and can afford it. Families sure wouldnít get it with it being smaller and less doors than WRX/STI, or GTI/Golf R. For a hatch to sell these days you need size and to reel in MSRP, which is why I say a FWD GR Corolla seems more viable in North America as a GTI fighter.

I see where theyíre coming from too... I love the old rally car days and miss my GD which is why the Yaris GR-4 appeals to me too. But guys, weíre a dying breed. Being a smaller hatch than a usual hot hatch makes the GR-4 a niche within a niche now, and I just donít think we are enough to make it worth their while, unfortunately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VarmintCong View Post
The Golf R imo is a perfect explanation for why the segment is lagging...
The GTI/Golf R are great cars, but I think the lack of rawness is not the main issue. I think itís expensive hatch stigma that brings it down. North America tends to like coupes or sports sedans for performance.
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Old 04-04-2020, 08:34 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO View Post
Weird. My '14 Corolla had a ton of rear legroom. Far more than my GTI and felt as roomy as my '11 Legacy.
The hatchback has significantly less legroom than the sedan for some odd reason. Itís ample in the sedan.
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Old 04-04-2020, 10:55 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littledrummerboy View Post
The GTI/Golf R are great cars, but I think the lack of rawness is not the main issue. I think it's expensive hatch stigma that brings it down. North America tends to like coupes or sports sedans for performance.
I will preface this by saying I really, really like both cars but imo the Golf R and *especially* the GTI are getting to be very overpriced relative to their content.

I don't think going into this next-generation of GTI they can realistically continue to sell GTIs in Autobahn trim at >$36,400K when the defining features of that trim (8-inch display, DCC, and adaptive cruise control) are available standard in a Civic Si. Several of the higher-spec GTI-features were exclusive to the GTI when this generation was new, but they are standard features now. They are also really likely to see strong competition from the Koreans for the first time next year. The price/content of the GTI next-year needs to really squish down. My preference would be putting most of the current tech in the base trim and having only one trim/package above that with leather/virtual cockpit/sunroof or something.
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Old 04-05-2020, 12:20 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littledrummerboy View Post
The hatchback has significantly less legroom than the sedan for some odd reason. It's ample in the sedan.
In the USDM the corolla sedan and hatch were on separate platforms from MY2016 (MY2017 can't recall when Scion ended and Toyota picked up the model) until MY2020. They were essentially different cars that shared a name. Before it was a Scion it was a Toyota Matrix, which was also different than the sedan.
The hatch has IRS, the sedan has a torsion beam; if you get under them or in them they are very different vehicles.

Hatch: (Toyota Auris outside the USDM)
MY2015-MY2016 it was a Scion iM (DWB rear suspension)
MY2016-MY2018 it was a Toyota Corolla iM (DWB rear suspension, same as the Scion)
MY2019-current - Toyota Corolla Hatchback (now on TNGA)

Sedan:
MY2014-MY2019 torsion beam car with some fascia refreshes along the way (also before this time it was a TB rear)
MY2020-current - Toyota Corolla Sedan (on TNGA)

The Yaris for North America is different than the Japan/Europe model from MY 2012 or 2013 onward; essentially North America got a rebadged Mazda 2 because of piss-poor Yaris sales in the NA market.

The GR Yaris is derived from a Japan/Europe model, so a true Yaris.
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Old 04-05-2020, 01:20 PM   #43
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^ thatís whatís weird about the current gen Corolla though. Both sedan and hatch are now on TNGA, both have IRS, yet rear legroom is not the same.

Yeah I realize the Yaris here is still technically the Mazda2. Would be interesting to see if it gets updated to TNGA, or cut from the lineup completely... I feel like the latter will happen for us and theyíll rely on the Corolla for small car sales.
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Old 04-06-2020, 09:55 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by littledrummerboy View Post
I blame NAís love of excess... large, heavy, lifted overkill CUVs, not Toyota or any car manufacturer, tbh.
The Kona N should do well in NA then. Its small enough to be a hot hatch, but big enough to be a CUV. If it is AWD I will be exploring that option. Hell, if it is FWD I will be exploring that option. I've said it before and I will say it again, Hyundai is the brand to watch right now.

GR Corolla will be a hard sell for me unless it is offering specs (AWD) from the GR Yaris. Time will tell.
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Old 04-06-2020, 12:11 PM   #45
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Subaru is exploring a sporty Crosstrek coupe per their concept vehicles, so there might be something there. Just get some coilovers and call it good.
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Old 04-06-2020, 01:53 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by littledrummerboy View Post
^ thatís whatís weird about the current gen Corolla though. Both sedan and hatch are now on TNGA, both have IRS, yet rear legroom is not the same.
Just looked at Toyota's website - the sedan has a longer wheelbase than the hatch. 106.3 vs 103.9, so there is your rear legroom, all exterior dimensions are different, I guess they are keeping them as different as before.

I had ASSumed that when they moved the sedan to the TNGA they would be the same car with different body configurations, which clearly isn't the case.
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Old 04-06-2020, 05:51 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by chanomatik View Post
Subaru is exploring a sporty Crosstrek coupe per their concept vehicles, so there might be something there. Just get some coilovers and call it good.
And it'll probably be CVT only and N/A in the production version.
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Old 04-06-2020, 07:19 PM   #48
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Now remember that the current Yaris is actually just a rebadged Mazda 2. You have to look at specs of the new Japan Yaris to get an idea on what the Yaris GR rear legroom would be.
Yeah, you're right, others have pointed that out as well.
So, I went to the Toyota France website, and I couldn't find rear legroom measurements on the Yaris brochure, but clearly, Yaris is significantly smaller other there (definitely smaller than the Corolla hatchback for sure).
A few interesting facts about Totoya's offering in France:
- they get a Corolla Touring Sports with 2 different gas-electric hybrid setup (1.8L and 2.0L)
- they also get a 7-seater version of the Prius V (Prius VII?)
- and, they're taking pre-orders for the GR4, prices start at 35.5K Euros including 20% VAT; that's 29.5K Euros before tax. Not bad at all.
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Old 04-06-2020, 07:23 PM   #49
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- and, they're taking pre-orders for the GR4, prices start at 35.5K Euros including 20% VAT; that's 29.5K Euros before tax. Not bad at all.


Our car market is so much larger and these fíers get it.

3 door hatch, check. Front and rear diffs, check. Light weight, check. 6SPD MT, check. Drive modes, 60/40, 50/50, and 30/70, check. Turbo, check. F U Toyo USA. F YOU! Never buying another Toyota product.
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Old 04-06-2020, 08:11 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dex View Post
And it'll probably be CVT only and N/A in the production version.
If they offer the WRX as a sedan-only again, Subaru might feel like they're throwing a bone by offering a 200+ hp coupe CUV with a manual. Who knows though.

The new Sport/Limited Crosstrek with a bigger engine could be a precursor or testing ground for interest, from their point of view.
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