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Old 09-09-2021, 12:24 PM   #3651
thesmokingman
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From an enthusiast standpoint, you are giving up a lot to go to an EV from an ICE, and paying a lot more to do it.
Actually that's just old thinking. You haven't driven one have you? Your way of thinking might just change after you drive one. They are different... an ICE car isn't better just different. My wife's Model Y Performance will slay anything on the road due to that torque and traction, corners as well as my bugeye on KW V3 Pilot Sports and takes zero effort on my part to keep it in the powerband, is incredibly more plush and silent. As I wrote it's different. I like the Subie, will always have love for it but the MYP is just a better environment to be in especially now that I'm older, obviously putting cost aside for a minute. I'll be honest, I'm done with the youngsters and their sound of engine and 6mt and all that crap. These days I want performance w/o being beat to death by it.
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Old 09-09-2021, 12:36 PM   #3652
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Good test. I would have love to see a comparison to another 1000hp ICE car doing the range test or something like a hellcat. Marques could have charge his car at his overnight stop by staying at a hotel that offers charging or running a extension cord from his Airbnb. Driving the Plaid with 19" wheels would give them 50 extra miles.

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Old 09-09-2021, 12:36 PM   #3653
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Originally Posted by thesmokingman View Post
Actually that's just old thinking. You haven't driven one have you? Your way of thinking might just change after you drive one. They are different... an ICE car isn't better just different. My wife's Model Y Performance will slay anything on the road due to that torque and traction, corners as well as my bugeye on KW V3 Pilot Sports and takes zero effort on my part to keep it in the powerband, is incredibly more plush and silent. As I wrote it's different. I like the Subie, will always have love for it but the MYP is just a better environment to be in especially now that I'm older, obviously putting cost aside for a minute. I'll be honest, I'm done with the youngsters and their sound of engine and 6mt and all that crap. These days I want performance w/o being beat to death by it.
No it is NOT old thinking. That is his modern educated opinion of what he likes. this is why people get bent talking to EV 'enthusiasts'. They refuse to acknowledge that people can like anything else. No room for dissenting opinions. I am happy you like your EV. But I agree with SVT here. They will never have the interaction and engagement of an ICE car with a MT.

I reread your post and will pull back on what I said above. You did not say he was wrong, you say he need may change his opinion. Fair statement and withdraw what I said about refusing to acknowledge. I left it up to say I misjudged your post so I could say sorry for jumping to a conclusion.

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Old 09-09-2021, 12:38 PM   #3654
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Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
https://youtu.be/vXzuFprlyrw

Good test. I would have love to see a comparison to another 1000hp ICE car doing the range test or something like a hellcat. Marques could have charge his car at his overnight stop buy a staying at a hotel that offers charging or running a extension car from his Airbnb. Driving the Plaid with 19" wheels would give them 50 extra miles.
I will take things you never have to think about with an ICE for 500 Alex.
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Old 09-09-2021, 12:41 PM   #3655
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No it is NOT old thinking. That is his modern educated opinion of what he likes. this is why people get bent talking to EV 'enthusiasts'. They refuse to acknowledge that people can like anything else. No room for dissenting opinions. I am happy you like your EV. But I agree with SVT here. They will never have the interaction and engagement of an ICE car with a MT.
PPL have been waxing on about manuals for decades before I was born probably. Get over it.
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Old 09-09-2021, 12:47 PM   #3656
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PPL have been waxing on about manuals for decades before I was born probably. Get over it.
that is your reply... "you opinion is old, so get over it"

not as well thought out as I expected... nice try, but nope, you somehow failed to convince me despite your highly intellectual rebuttal.
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Old 09-09-2021, 12:50 PM   #3657
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that is your reply... "you opinion is old, so get over it"

not as well thought out as I expected... nice try, but nope, you somehow failed to convince me despite your highly intellectual rebuttal.
This thinking that you bring into here is exactly what I was talking about in that post you quoted. You come into a Tesla thread with all these feels **** that is a non-starter in an EV thread. Ofc an EV can't give you manual gearing or an exhaust note. Get over it or don't come into EV thread waxing about things an EV can never give you and then state why an EV won't ever work for you. NO ****, it never would have in the first place.
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Old 09-09-2021, 12:58 PM   #3658
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This thinking that you bring into here is exactly what I was talking about in that post you quoted. You come into a Tesla thread with all these feels **** that is a non-starter in an EV thread. Ofc an EV can't give you manual gearing or an exhaust note. Get over it or don't come into EV thread waxing about things an EV can never give you and then state why an EV won't ever work for you. NO ****, it never would have in the first place.
It is no different than pointing out the other shortcomings of any car in any thread. Last I checked this was an open forum and free to anybody. This is the EV group think we constantly run into. If you cannot say something good about what I like, do not say anything. So what you want is a 'safe space' to bash everything else but what YOU like. Nope. You do not get that. You are free to say or not say whatever you want in any thread. This is an open forum.

Group think is dangerous. Having your opinions challenged with other opinions in a free and open environment forces both parties to consider the others position. May not change either's mind, but vetting other opinions, rather than dismissing them is always a more fruitful option. If it makes you uncomfortable, all the better.
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Old 09-09-2021, 01:03 PM   #3659
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It is no different than pointing out the other shortcomings of any car in any thread. Last I checked this was an open forum and free to anybody. This is the EV group think we constantly run into. If you cannot say something good about what I like, do not say anything. So what you want is a 'safe space' to bash everything else but what YOU like. Nope. You do not get that. You are free to say or not say whatever you want in any thread. This is an open forum.

Group think is dangerous. Having your opinions challenged with other opinions in a free and open environment forces both parties to consider the others position. May not change either's mind, but vetting other opinions, rather than dismissing them is always a more fruitful option. If it makes you uncomfortable, all the better.
Wrong. You keep prattling on about ICE feels and stuff like that that an EV is not. You don't seem to realize that those ideals are non-starters and EVERYONE already knows this. If you keep holding onto those ideals, you will always be negative on EV. You are the ones that are the issue, you are inflexible. You decry there is only one measure of a car, it's manual or exhaust note blah blah blah.

You're wrong. And now you go on another tangent about how this is an open forum, mind think all this bull****.
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Old 09-09-2021, 01:06 PM   #3660
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I will take things you never have to think about with an ICE for 500 Alex.
I'd have to argue that point. Driving and ICE, you would still need to think about fill ups. With hotels with a charging station, that's like having the gas pump where you parked your car. It could actually be easier, and a lot cheaper.

Now the A&B is another story.
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Old 09-09-2021, 01:09 PM   #3661
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I'd have to argue that point. Driving and ICE, you would still need to think about fill ups. With hotels with a charging station, that's like having the gas pump where you parked your car. It could actually be easier, and a lot cheaper.

Now the A&B is another story.
Could is the key word. I would wager that their are more filling stations than hotels that offer charging. Things could change.
but point taken.
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Old 09-09-2021, 01:11 PM   #3662
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I spec'd out a bunch of CUVs for my wife:
Mach E (Premium ER) was 56k
Model Y (LR w/blue paint) was 55k
Highlander hybrid (XLE AWD) was 47k
Rav4 hybrid (XLE premium AWD) was 37k

S***s expensive yo; we're going to wait until the market settles a bit/there is more available inventory
Thats why we went Macan. No reason to pay $40-50k for a Toyota when you can Porsche! That and we needed to fit it in the garage yet still have decent towing for long distances, something EVs can't do yet.

But we did buy over a year ago tho, back when the discounts were still heavy
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Old 09-09-2021, 01:14 PM   #3663
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Wrong. You keep prattling on about ICE feels and stuff like that that an EV is not. You don't seem to realize that those ideals are non-starters and EVERYONE already knows this. If you keep holding onto those ideals, you will always be negative on EV. You are the ones that are the issue, you are inflexible. You decry there is only one measure of a car, it's manual or exhaust note blah blah blah.

You're wrong. And now you go on another tangent about how this is an open forum, mind think all this bull****.
Good you feel uncomfortable. You are being forced to think.

Just because glaring shortcomings of an EV are known by everybody is no reason to dismiss them and pretend like they do not exist. Those things are important to some people. Most enthusiasts I would say want to be engaged in diving a sports car. It is kind of the whole point of owning a sports car. So to dismiss it is just lazy and convenient.

I have already said I would not mind a Rivian or an eF150, so I have not dismissed anything. You misspoke. I forgive you.
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Old 09-09-2021, 01:25 PM   #3664
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Good you feel uncomfortable. You are being forced to think.

Just because glaring shortcomings of an EV are known by everybody is no reason to dismiss them and pretend like they do not exist. Those things are important to some people. Most enthusiasts I would say want to be engaged in diving a sports car. It is kind of the whole point of owning a sports car. So to dismiss it is just lazy and convenient.

I have already said I would not mind a Rivian or an eF150, so I have not dismissed anything. You misspoke. I forgive you.
Wrong again, I did not say they are shortcomings. You did and you keep suggesting as so. When I posted to that other poster about them being different not necessarily one better than the other just different. I was respecting each car type for what they are. You however are full of it. You have clear negative bias that's why you hold on tightly to your ICE engine sounds and manual shifting. As if those are the only things that define a car, lmao.
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Old 09-09-2021, 01:26 PM   #3665
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Could is the key word. I would wager that their are more filling stations than hotels that offer charging. Things could change.
but point taken.
It's funny this comes up. We are probably going to take the EV plunge early 2022. So the wife and I looked at our common and edge case uses. The 2.5 hour monthly trip (180 miles each way) is no longer and issue now that there are many 250 mile + EVs.

Our bi-annual 10 hour trips were now in question. So we looked to see how big of an impact it would make it. We always stop overnight at the 5/6 hour mark (right at 300 miles). 3 of the 5 hotels there have chargers now, including the one we normally stay at anyways. If that one didn't, then one of the others would have gotten our business. So it would have swayed our choice, so a win for them. Given that I think we will see a lot more chargers added to hotels and non-fast food places.

On a similar note, we also looked at if we didn't stop overnight. Given the model we are looking at, it would have been one 15-20 minute stop in the 500+ mile trip. Given my older bladder, we would have stopped more than that anyways.
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Old 09-09-2021, 01:32 PM   #3666
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Actually that's just old thinking. You haven't driven one have you? Your way of thinking might just change after you drive one. They are different... an ICE car isn't better just different. My wife's Model Y Performance will slay anything on the road due to that torque and traction, corners as well as my bugeye on KW V3 Pilot Sports and takes zero effort on my part to keep it in the powerband, is incredibly more plush and silent. As I wrote it's different. I like the Subie, will always have love for it but the MYP is just a better environment to be in especially now that I'm older, obviously putting cost aside for a minute. I'll be honest, I'm done with the youngsters and their sound of engine and 6mt and all that crap. These days I want performance w/o being beat to death by it.
Yes I have driven EV's, which is why I think they would be acceptable for certain applications (which I outlined previously).

When going from an ICE to an EV in an enthusiast vehicle I am giving up: Manual transmission, engine/induction/exhaust noise, steering feel & feedback.
I am gaining: curb weight, MSRP.

The "drive an EV and it might change your mind" argument is a similar the following arguments:
"FWD is soo good now". Yeah, it's good for FWD, but it's still FWD; I still do not like FWD or front biased AWD; I prefer RWD. I have driven just about every noteworthy FWD car in the USA, except for the CTR, but I've got a really good sample size to determine that FWD is still FWD.

"Automatics are soo good now" Yeah, they are, I own one, but I still prefer a Manual, even after ~2 years of ownership, which is why this one is only going to be owned until something compelling equipped with three pedals that can fill it's role comes along.

What is better on paper is not always what is preferred, sought after, or actually wanted.

Look at CVT's - supposed to be more efficient than a planetary auto, but people missed the shifting sensation, so they programmed CVT's to have fake shift points, thus negating most/all of the improved efficiency.

There are the emotional & sensory portions of driving, as well as driver control; in a fun car I'm going to bang around on back roads in or do the occasional track day in, I want as much of that sensory input and emotional response as possible, as well as as much driver control as possible; EV's aren't there, and in the case of sensory input and driver control, will likely never be there when compared to an ICE.

I'm not saying you or others won't enjoy their EV, what I am saying is that I'd rather shift my own gears, turn off the nannies and listen to a smallblock V8, and I can't do those things in an EV (the faux/augmented engine noises are horrible in every application).

For daily grind/family hauling duties EV's work, specifically in a CUV configuration for me, but come at a premium, if there is a more engaging ICE vehicle available, I'm going for that. I feel like I did a good job explaining my standpoint previously, but if I didn't, I hope this has clarified with additional information.

Drive what you like.
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Old 09-09-2021, 02:49 PM   #3667
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
It is no different than pointing out the other shortcomings of any car in any thread. Last I checked this was an open forum and free to anybody. This is the EV group think we constantly run into. If you cannot say something good about what I like, do not say anything. So what you want is a 'safe space' to bash everything else but what YOU like. Nope. You do not get that. You are free to say or not say whatever you want in any thread. This is an open forum.

Group think is dangerous. Having your opinions challenged with other opinions in a free and open environment forces both parties to consider the others position. May not change either's mind, but vetting other opinions, rather than dismissing them is always a more fruitful option. If it makes you uncomfortable, all the better.
The EV owner and enthusiast are the minority no the other way around; group thinking is dangerous.

The current short coming EV's is the energy density of the batteries and that's improving drastically. The 2021 refreshed Model S weights almost 300lbs less than its predecessor, has better cooling, a smaller battery pack, while getting more range.

The 2021 Model 3 Performance curb weight 4065 lbs while something like a 2022 BMW M3 4WD 3990lbs with the Model 3 having a way lower center of gravity. The Model S refreshed weight in at 4561 lbs and 2022 BMW M5 at 4300lbs. With the upcoming 4680 cells the Tesla EV's will be under the curb weight of their direct competitors at a lower cost with more range. The Model 3 doesn't even have any aluminum frame castings. I guarantee this will happen within 2-3 years.
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Old 09-09-2021, 03:01 PM   #3668
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There's a lot of feels in this thread.

I think EV vehicles have an application for just about everyone. ICE is becoming a very niche segment but, I totally agree with the fact that EV can't and won't replace the visceral engagement that some ICE cars can provide.

On the other hand, I realize that a lot of people are okay with letting that go in exchange for the performance ease of maintenance characteristics of EVs.

There is room for both. ICE as an enthusiasts vehicle, and EV for pretty much everything else.

We're in the 2004 Prius days of EV. Yeah they are good, but in ten years we're going to a lot farther ahead in not only selection, but range, entry-level prices and towing. At that point I don't know if basic ass sedans and SUVs will be relevant. I do however, think vehicles like the BRZ, Si, Type-R, Miata, etc., will still have a relevant place for enthusiasts because of that unique engagement.

Hobby-passion is hard to replace, and expecting people to just dump ICE as a hobby and wholly embrace EV is ignorant. I think there's definitely room for both disciplines. I'd be totally okay with a 24k dollar EV and an enthusiast ICE car in my garage. Oh, and a Bronco.
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Old 09-09-2021, 07:34 PM   #3669
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https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1436088215186911243

It seems like 7 seconds faster than the Taycan. I haven't check if it is a full lap but I assume so.

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Old 09-09-2021, 09:31 PM   #3670
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good for him for pushing Porsche so hard. Once you get into modified cars, the sky is the limit.
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Old 09-10-2021, 07:35 AM   #3671
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Here is the video the car seems to be limited to 165mph like the factory cars. With the proper tires, pads and the 200mph limiter it should cut down a good bit of time. The Tesla nerds are saying that the Taycan run at 35C while the Plaid at 20C in which 15+ C increases wind resistance by 5%.


Misha is saying that the Porsche Taycan lap is not even an official record:


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Old 09-11-2021, 12:45 AM   #3672
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Traded up my 2016 STi recently for a brand new 2021 M3P
nice, how are you liking it? Any issues with it when you took delivery? I keep thinking about trading in my WRX for an M3 but the horror stories I've seen about their quality control are holding me back.
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Old 09-15-2021, 11:07 PM   #3673
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nice, how are you liking it? Any issues with it when you took delivery? I keep thinking about trading in my WRX for an M3 but the horror stories I've seen about their quality control are holding me back.
We will pick up the 3rd Tesla in our family on Saturday we will see how that one is. So far they have been great.
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Old 09-16-2021, 09:13 AM   #3674
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It's funny this comes up. We are probably going to take the EV plunge early 2022. So the wife and I looked at our common and edge case uses. The 2.5 hour monthly trip (180 miles each way) is no longer and issue now that there are many 250 mile + EVs.
With a 250mile EPA rated car on a180 mile one way road trip, presumably on the interstates going 75mph+, will probably require fast charging on the way and charging at the destination. At least if you will when it's cold outside. A higher rated range will give you a cushion.

Quote:
Our bi-annual 10 hour trips were now in question. So we looked to see how big of an impact it would make it. We always stop overnight at the 5/6 hour mark (right at 300 miles). 3 of the 5 hotels there have chargers now, including the one we normally stay at anyways.
You will have to stop once, possibly twice before you get to your hotel with overnight charging.


There are several reasons for needing these stops:

EPA ratings vastly overestimate usable range at normal interstate speeds

EPA ratings are based on essentially running the car until it's dead, but the charge estimations typically have reserve built into them. You're not going to push it that hard.

In fact you're going to start getting nervous when you've got 10-15% battery left and it's snowing out, or you get stuck in a backup, or at least your wife will.

Your battery will degrade over time reducing effective range, especially in the first year or two of ownership.

You will get tired of making sacrifices like reducing the use of heat in the car or driving 10mph less than the surrounding traffic to preserve range.

The spacing of the charging stations on a trip means you can't just stop whenever.



In the end it isn't a big deal to make those stops as long as there aren't long lines and the equipment is working, but those EPA ratings are really deceptive. Some people like to make a hypermiling game out of it ("Can I just turn on the seat heaters and not run the heat at all???") but most people just want a "normal" car they can drive "normally." And BEV's definitely are, except you're gonna have to stop more.

I take the EPA range and assume 50-60% of that is usable road trip range without stopping when in a worst case scenario (going up a mountain in say 40 degree F or less, which is not an uncommon scenario around Thanksgiving and Christmas times).

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Old 09-16-2021, 11:42 AM   #3675
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I think there was an article on deceptive EV range and those with Regen breaking calculated a fair amount of city driving with Regen breaking helping. On long freeway tests, the range proved to be substantially less for some auto manufacturers.

I think in time, maybe 5-10 years we will see massive leaps in battery tech in terms of weight and range. I wouldn't be surprised if we have 600-700 range vehicles that realistically get 400-500 with all accessories running and freeway travel.
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