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Old 05-09-2022, 03:33 PM   #601
subyski
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Not being able to charge below 32F is a big issue. It doesn't have to be northern climates as there's plenty of "mild" locations that still sees 32F or below at night, when many will be charging. Most garages are not insulated/heated either.
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Old 05-09-2022, 05:54 PM   #602
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Originally Posted by subyski View Post
Not being able to charge below 32F is a big issue. It doesn't have to be northern climates as there's plenty of "mild" locations that still sees 32F or below at night, when many will be charging. Most garages are not insulated/heated either.
Eh... who has a DC charger at home? L2, which is about as fast as most home installations will ever get, are AC.

As he notes, I'm wondering if it's just a "it won't charge until the battery is warmed" sorta thing. They need to warm up the batteries before charging will start. If it truly won't DC charge under 32 degrees ambient temperature, well, Subaru and Toyota failed. I recall reading that in super cold temperatures, it can take 1/2 hour or more for a tesla to warm up the battery before it will accept a DC charge, and even then, it can be really slow.

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Old 05-09-2022, 06:49 PM   #603
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Eh... who has a DC charger at home? L2, which is about as fast as most home installations will ever get, are AC.

As he notes, I'm wondering if it's just a "it won't charge until the battery is warmed" sorta thing. They need to warm up the batteries before charging will start. If it truly won't DC charge under 32 degrees ambient temperature, well, Subaru and Toyota failed. I recall reading that in super cold temperatures, it can take 1/2 hour or more for a tesla to warm up the battery before it will accept a DC charge, and even then, it can be really slow.
D'oh, completely didn't pay attention to the DC part.

Re-reading the post, it's still concerning. Yes, I completely understand a slow charging time and battery warm up time in cold conditions but it better take some DC charge at sub freezing temps, especially in emergency situations in adverse conditions. Imagine being told that you can't take your Subaru because it's too cold.
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Old 05-10-2022, 06:39 AM   #604
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That's not a great selling point for a Subaru given all their Northern based markets ha ha ha. I am kind of surprised Toyota released such a half baked POS as it's almost like they purposely set this up to fail.
That's exactly what many are talking about. They may had left out 'unless conditioned' or something similar. However, I the AWD has different batteries than FWD and some argue the AWD batteries are of the "cheaper" variety... means there may be more limitations.
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Old 05-10-2022, 09:52 AM   #605
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DC charging in the cold, very cold, is always slower, but this would be ridiculous. Tesla's are extremely popular in Norway, and charging works just fine. Preheating the battery makes it even faster.

Here is a terrible review of the charging speed:

Good car, so-so EV, would not buy at $40-50k:

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Old 05-10-2022, 12:39 PM   #606
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Good car, so-so EV, would not buy at $40-50k:
Honestly, that's how I feel about most of these 1st gen EV's that manufacturers are releasing. Hence why I'm in a sub 30k EV hatchback...
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Old 05-10-2022, 12:41 PM   #607
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Honestly, that's how I feel about most of these 1st gen EV's that manufacturers are releasing. Hence why I'm in a sub 30k EV hatchback...
Yes. I mean it makes sense. If you were a Legacy OEM would you sell a compelling EV at sufficient volumes to cannibalize your gassers? Probably not. So, most BEV are lack-luster. Taycan might be the only good one, although it doesn't one-pedal.
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Old 05-10-2022, 01:16 PM   #608
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Yes. I mean it makes sense. If you were a Legacy OEM would you sell a compelling EV at sufficient volumes to cannibalize your gassers? Probably not. So, most BEV are lack-luster. Taycan might be the only good one, although it doesn't one-pedal.
Manufacturers are at a point where they need their BEVs to steal ICE sales to bring up their CAFE ratings though. These 1st gen EV's wouldn't have such high expectations if they were released as cheaper hatchbacks though... They're trying to hit the high volume CUV market but in that I think they're setting themselves up for failure. Personally, we couldn't justify a high price tag for what we're using as a regional commuter car. We can justify it for something that we will do road trips in, but these EV's aren't there yet. I think Subaru would have done better to release something like an impreza or crosstrek sized EV. Expectations would have been lower.

Personally I don't like one pedal driving. I prefer regular driving modes where I spend more time with my foot off the pedal. I like being able to modulate regeneration with the blended brake pedal instead of the computer doing it... gives me back some level of control. Kinda weird that they didn't include it as a selectable option in the Taycan though.
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Old 05-10-2022, 01:20 PM   #609
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The Toyota version must be really really awesome. It also must be very important for Toyota to sell as many as possible to up their CAFE.

THESE MARKUPS HELP TO ACHIEVE THAT GOAL

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Old 05-10-2022, 01:23 PM   #610
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Manufacturers are at a point where they need their BEVs to steal ICE sales to bring up their CAFE ratings though. These 1st gen EV's wouldn't have such high expectations if they were released as cheaper hatchbacks though... They're trying to hit the high volume CUV market but in that I think they're setting themselves up for failure. Personally, we couldn't justify a high price tag for what we're using as a regional commuter car. We can justify it for something that we will do road trips in, but these EV's aren't there yet. I think Subaru would have done better to release something like an impreza or crosstrek sized EV. Expectations would have been lower.

Personally I don't like one pedal driving. I prefer regular driving modes where I spend more time with my foot off the pedal. Kinda weird that they didn't include it as a selectable option though.
Aren't trucks and big old SUVs basically exempt? The more big stuff sold, the less the CAFE rules matter.

Coasting is terrible. No control. I'd rather have instant control with just a change in pedal pressure.
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Old 05-10-2022, 01:24 PM   #611
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I am so done with dealers. Tesla can't sell cars in the state of CT because dealers took them to court claiming it would hurt consumers and dealers won. And here we are with huge markups that are hurting consumers (especially with inflation and high cost of gas). I see tons of markups in our state and I really want to start taking pictures of the window stickers and sending them to the state AG and CC'ing Tesla's legal department.
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Old 05-10-2022, 01:56 PM   #612
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Aren't trucks and big old SUVs basically exempt? The more big stuff sold, the less the CAFE rules matter.

Coasting is terrible. No control. I'd rather have instant control with just a change in pedal pressure.
I believe the larger vehicles just have higher CAFE targets, not that they are exempt.

I use the blended brake pedal for control. It's easy to feel when the brake pedal switches from just adding regen to using the brake pedal. It's more of a black-box when using one-pedal. Could just be Nissan's implementation of one-pedal driving, I just don't like it.
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Old 05-10-2022, 02:02 PM   #613
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I am so done with dealers. Tesla can't sell cars in the state of CT because dealers took them to court claiming it would hurt consumers and dealers won. And here we are with huge markups that are hurting consumers (especially with inflation and high cost of gas). I see tons of markups in our state and I really want to start taking pictures of the window stickers and sending them to the state AG and CC'ing Tesla's legal department.
Do it.
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Old 05-10-2022, 02:16 PM   #614
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What happens to these people who pay a $10k market adjustment on a car and they want to get rid of it in a couple years? By then the used car market will probably adjust to more normal values, and they're $10k deeper under water? Yikes
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Old 05-10-2022, 02:33 PM   #615
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I believe the larger vehicles just have higher CAFE targets, not that they are exempt.

I use the blended brake pedal for control. It's easy to feel when the brake pedal switches from just adding regen to using the brake pedal. It's more of a black-box when using one-pedal. Could just be Nissan's implementation of one-pedal driving, I just don't like it.
Sometimes you just want the car to slow down a little as you approach a curve, or an obstacle. You don't always need to apply the brakes. In a manual you can use engine braking. In a OPD EV you can just modulate the pedal travel (it's millimeters of change), gain some braking, and then go back on power or just cruise. Without that you have to do this balancing act of on the the pedal, off, coast, on, off, brake!!! It's annoying, especially since you can't downshift.

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What happens to these people who pay a $10k market adjustment on a car and they want to get rid of it in a couple years? By then the used car market will probably adjust to more normal values, and they're $10k deeper under water? Yikes
If dealers are allowing people to finance the up-charge, then you will have a lot of repossessions and possible bankruptcies when prices go back to normal. The seller will have to pay the bank the difference, well beyond the resale value. It's going to be the same for people paying over appraisal for houses. They are all underwater and if they lose their jobs, foreclosure.
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Old 05-10-2022, 03:58 PM   #616
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Sometimes you just want the car to slow down a little as you approach a curve, or an obstacle. You don't always need to apply the brakes. In a manual you can use engine braking. In a OPD EV you can just modulate the pedal travel (it's millimeters of change), gain some braking, and then go back on power or just cruise. Without that you have to do this balancing act of on the the pedal, off, coast, on, off, brake!!! It's annoying, especially since you can't downshift.
I tried it for a few weeks. Just didn't like it. Using B mode is just like using engine braking. If I need more regen deceleration than B mode gives me, the first tiny bit of travel in the brake pedal is purely additional regen before the friction brakes kick in. It's similar to what you describe, but I get more control over it rather than the computer driven one pedal black box.

different strokes.
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Old 05-10-2022, 04:05 PM   #617
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I tried it for a few weeks. Just didn't like it. Using B mode is just like using engine braking. If I need more regen deceleration than B mode gives me, the first tiny bit of travel in the brake pedal is purely additional regen before the friction brakes kick in. It's similar to what you describe, but I get more control over it rather than the computer driven one pedal black box.

different strokes.
I used B mode on the Crosstrek PHEV on downhills and in snow. Problem is, I would have liked to live in B mode, which I don't think it's meant for (really for steep downhill roads). It also wasn't nearly as much braking force as OPD.

That's weird to say black box. I don't consider it a black box as I know exactly how much stopping power it will provide. Muscle memory makes it very comfortable and smooth. I rarely take my foot off the pedal. This is also in a Tesla, not sure what car you were driving. So the execution could be different.

I found the blended brakes on the Crosstrek PHEV to be terrible. I could never tell when it would cross over, leading to very awkward full stops. At the end it would grab and brake too much. It's like I haddn't been driving for decades.
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Old 05-10-2022, 04:17 PM   #618
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I used B mode on the Crosstrek PHEV on downhills and in snow. Problem is, I would have liked to live in B mode, which I don't think it's meant for (really for steep downhill roads). It also wasn't nearly as much braking force as OPD.

That's weird to say black box. I don't consider it a black box as I know exactly how much stopping power it will provide. Muscle memory makes it very comfortable and smooth. I rarely take my foot off the pedal. This is also in a Tesla, not sure what car you were driving. So the execution could be different.

I found the blended brakes on the Crosstrek PHEV to be terrible. I could never tell when it would cross over, leading to very awkward full stops. At the end it would grab and brake too much. It's like I haddn't been driving for decades.
I daily drive a nissan leaf plus.

B mode just gives me more regeneration. Sometimes it's more efficient to use B-mode because I would otherwise be using the friction brakes, sometimes it's better to be in D mode and let the car coast a bit more, just depends on traffic. I see no reason that B mode needs to be relegated to just downhill driving in an electric car... maybe gasoline, but not electric.

What's black-box about one pedal driving is how much regen it's using vs how much friction brake it's using. On my leaf I can literally look at the gauge and watch the regen bars rise as I lightly press the gas pedal. Press a little harder and I can lightly feel the friction brakes join in. It's very seamless and sounds like it's worlds better than Subaru's implementation.
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Old 05-10-2022, 04:27 PM   #619
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I daily drive a nissan leaf plus.

B mode just gives me more regeneration. Sometimes it's more efficient to use B-mode because I would otherwise be using the friction brakes, sometimes it's better to be in D mode and let the car coast a bit more, just depends on traffic. I see no reason that B mode needs to be relegated to just downhill driving in an electric car... maybe gasoline, but not electric.

What's black-box about one pedal driving is how much regen it's using vs how much friction brake it's using. On my leaf I can literally look at the gauge and watch the regen bars rise as I lightly press the gas pedal. Press a little harder and I can lightly feel the friction brakes join in. It's very seamless and sounds like it's worlds better than Subaru's implementation.
One Pedal Driving = Only regen. There's no friction brakes at all.
Tesla Brake Pedal = Friction brakes only

Subaru did it via blending. Maybe half brake pedal travel is light regen, and then farther down is friction.
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Old 05-10-2022, 04:30 PM   #620
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One Pedal Driving = Only regen. There's no friction brakes at all.
Tesla Brake Pedal = Friction brakes only

Subaru did it via blending. Maybe half brake pedal travel is light regen, and then farther down is friction.
Tesla is the only manufacturer that does not use friction brakes in their one-pedal application. Nissan uses friction brakes once you lift off the pedal far enough. Nissan also uses blended brakes via the brake pedal, it's way less than 1/2 travel for regen - maybe like 1/10 travel at most. What works for every car is going to vary, but it's way more applicable to other manufacturers than Tesla's experience. It's like a video game... just gotta find what works best for each car and master it...
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Old 05-10-2022, 05:03 PM   #621
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Tesla is the only manufacturer that does not use friction brakes in their one-pedal application. Nissan uses friction brakes once you lift off the pedal far enough. Nissan also uses blended brakes via the brake pedal, it's way less than 1/2 travel for regen - maybe like 1/10 travel at most. What works for every car is going to vary, but it's way more applicable to other manufacturers than Tesla's experience. It's like a video game... just gotta find what works best for each car and master it...
It seems from Leaf stuff, the main ePedal stopping is via regen, friction brakes are used on low traction surfaces, and probably at the end to stop.

For Tesla it is all regen until the last second for the brakes to Hold the car in place. Like a Hill Holder. I agree we do not have a blended brake pedal.
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Old 05-10-2022, 05:44 PM   #622
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It seems from Leaf stuff, the main ePedal stopping is via regen, friction brakes are used on low traction surfaces, and probably at the end to stop.

For Tesla it is all regen until the last second for the brakes to Hold the car in place. Like a Hill Holder. I agree we do not have a blended brake pedal.
honestly, my chief complaint is pedal feel. the other stuff might be negligible. I like the gas pedal feel in D and B mode, it feels a lot faster. That is obviously a nissan specific thing. I looked around for a pedal box that might let me tweak it, but came up empty, so I just gave up on one-pedal driving and drive like the dinosaurs did.
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Old 05-10-2022, 07:00 PM   #623
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honestly, my chief complaint is pedal feel. the other stuff might be negligible. I like the gas pedal feel in D and B mode, it feels a lot faster. That is obviously a nissan specific thing. I looked around for a pedal box that might let me tweak it, but came up empty, so I just gave up on one-pedal driving and drive like the dinosaurs did.
Yabba-dabba-do!
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Old 06-23-2022, 10:54 PM   #624
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https://www.carscoops.com/2022/06/to...-come-off/amp/

Beware, your wheels might fall off if you do anything too drastic with your off-road intended EV...

This **** is the reason I bought a leaf, and not some other fancy new EV.

Last edited by dwf137; 06-24-2022 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 06-24-2022, 07:05 AM   #625
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https://www.carscoops.com/2022/06/to...-come-off/amp/

Beware, your wheels might fall off if you do anything too drastic with your off-road intended EV...

This **** is the reason I bought a leaf, and not some other fancy new EV.
Interesting that they decided to use hub bolts instead of lug nuts; I'd assume it's an issue at the factory with torque specs on the assembly line.
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