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Old 09-16-2022, 03:33 PM   #7801
Snow Drift
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WRX is not a competitor of FWD econoboxes. It is AWD, usually more expensive, worse on fuel, and targeted to a different segment of buyers. Very few people are cross shopping a Civic and a WRX. Maybe the WRX is a dream car for that person, but it's not an actual debate in their head.

I agree, Golf R is above the WRX, but the STI is dead. CTR is in a class of its own, because no one else makes that track focused of a FWD car.
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Old 09-16-2022, 03:45 PM   #7802
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It absolutely is. It is a direct competitor to the Si, GTI/GLI, NÖIt is consistently shopped, compared and priced with those cars. This not up for a debate.
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Old 09-16-2022, 03:46 PM   #7803
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Drift View Post
Ah, that probably explains the discrepancy. As much as I enjoy Cars101, Joe Spitz has always been prone to the occasional inaccuracy (which he freely disclaimers on his sadly now-derelict site), as has Edmunds, including missing small details resulting from mid-generation changes. That would make sense in this case given that the bugeye/blobeye had 6.1" (per the manuals) and then they went to 6.3" for the hawkeye (again, per the manuals) all during the same generation.

When Edmunds created their pages for the hawkeye years, it's not hard to imagine them just copying the previous year's data and updating the most salient info, like engine size/output, while accidentally overlooking relatively minor details. They also have 17/24 MPG as the EPA ratings for the 2006 WRX 5MT on the page. I'm not sure where that came from since even the STI's numbers for that model year weren't that bad (18/24).

Although it's not impossible for the owner's manuals to contain errors, I generally consider them more reliable than Spitz or Edmunds when it comes to basic vehicle specs.
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Old 09-16-2022, 03:55 PM   #7804
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Originally Posted by fathatch View Post
How the class is defined is highly dependent on regional factors. Price and Form Factor often take precedent. In NC, I don't personally shop along these lines. When AWD is no longer functionally required (at all), it just becomes another feature to be considered.

Its highely likely that the majority of people that buy the WRX/STI do not need AWD. (Simply based on the number of these cars I see on the West Coast and the South East).

In my area, the WRX is commonly cross-shopped against the sporty FWD, AWD and RWD (new and used) segment cars in the same price range 28k-35k~.
This is a good point. Not everyone lives in an area where they truly need AWD. Here in California, I would absolutely say that most people who look into a WRX also cross-shop it with a Civic Si, GTI, etc. Sure, they are totally different cars from a technical standpoint, but they're still cross-shopped heavily here. I'm talking about people who buy these cars as a daily driver/regular usage car BTW, which is the vast majority of buyers. People who are serious about track usage or other extreme use cases will of course have different priorities.
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Old 09-16-2022, 04:10 PM   #7805
Snow Drift
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Originally Posted by YungBoba View Post
This is a good point. Not everyone lives in an area where they truly need AWD. Here in California, I would absolutely say that most people who look into a WRX also cross-shop it with a Civic Si, GTI, etc. Sure, they are totally different cars from a technical standpoint, but they're still cross-shopped heavily here. I'm talking about people who buy these cars as a daily driver/regular usage car BTW, which is the vast majority of buyers. People who are serious about track usage or other extreme use cases will of course have different priorities.
Is it possible? Will car mags make the mistake bc there's no were else to put the WRX these days? Sure. Truth is, they really aren't comparable. Do you want great MPG and cheap payments, or do you want a sporty car, with bad MPG, for more money, that's capable of beating many cars twice its price, that won't get stuck in the snow. ...it does snow in Cali. I'd prefer a WRX at Bear or Heavenly.

09+ Lancer Ralliart was the last true competitor to the WRX.
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Old 09-16-2022, 04:11 PM   #7806
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Drift View Post
WRX is not a competitor of FWD econoboxes. It is AWD, usually more expensive, worse on fuel, and targeted to a different segment of buyers. Very few people are cross shopping a Civic and a WRX. Maybe the WRX is a dream car for that person, but it's not an actual debate in their head.

I agree, Golf R is above the WRX, but the STI is dead. CTR is in a class of its own, because no one else makes that track focused of a FWD car.
I think you are over simplifying buyer behavior. How they perceive car class distinctions is going to depend on the age and income of the buyer, and the requirement set. Focusing just on age and income; For young customers that are stretching their budget, you have a point. Some of them would just decide to buy a used car if they were set on a particular model.

For higher income people looking for a cheap and cheerful performance oriented daily driver, the price difference is not significant. And so they are not going to draw distinctions between relatively small price brackets.

Once we start talking about car enthusiasts specifically, independent of income, they prioritize experience over feature set. Form factor of the car becomes less relevant, particular for the younger customer set (often without children). Enthusiasts will also overpay (ADMs is a case in point), which makes the price based class divisions less relevant.

My main point is that car segments from the buyers perspective are situationally dynamic, with price (ceiling) and Form factor being the most relevant typically.
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Old 09-16-2022, 04:18 PM   #7807
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When I bought my wrx, the cars I test-drove:
wrx
mazdaspeed3
mini cooper S
Civic SI
GTI

I could have afforded any of those cars. I initially bought the mini cooper because it was the most fun to drive of all of them. Not the fastest, but most fun. I quickly got rid of it for a WRX because the size just didn't work for me, and having to chain up my MCS on the highway to go snowboarding was a huge PITA as everyone else in their subarus with all seasons go slipping past me.

long story short, wrx still competes with the fwd cars for some people, especially those that don't live in places with snow.
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Old 09-16-2022, 04:19 PM   #7808
Snow Drift
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fathatch View Post
I think you are over simplifying buyer behavior. How they perceive car class distinctions is going to depend on the age and income of the buyer, and the requirement set. Focusing just on age and income; For young customers that are stretching their budget, you have a point. Some of them would just decide to buy a used car if they were set on a particular model.

For higher income people looking for a cheap and cheerful performance oriented daily driver, the price difference is not significant. And so they are not going to draw distinctions between relatively small price brackets.

Once we start talking about car enthusiasts specifically, independent of income, they prioritize experience over feature set. Form factor of the car becomes less relevant, particular for the younger customer set (often without children). Enthusiasts will also overpay (ADMs is a case in point), which makes the price based class divisions less relevant.

My main point is that car segments from the buyers perspective are situationally dynamic, with price (ceiling) and Form factor being the most relevant typically.
Was a Honda Del Sol and Honda S2000 comparable? Both are open air coupes from Honda. One is FWD, one is RWD. One was slow, one was quick. How about a Mini Cooper Convertible? I would not compare FWD convertible with RWD convertible. But I guess you think they are the same segment, because they have two doors and the roof comes off?
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Old 09-16-2022, 04:56 PM   #7809
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"I like my bargain mid-size sedan to look like complete ass because I didn't pay a lot of money for it."
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Old 09-16-2022, 05:06 PM   #7810
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Drift View Post
Was a Honda Del Sol and Honda S2000 comparable? Both are open air coupes from Honda. One is FWD, one is RWD. One was slow, one was quick. How about a Mini Cooper Convertible? I would not compare FWD convertible with RWD convertible. But I guess you think they are the same segment, because they have two doors and the roof comes off?
Why don't you re-read what I wrote and interpret from that. I know what your trying to do, but I'll play ball (FWIW an ill conceived comparison beacuse years of production are offset by 3+, and price by 10k+).

Hypothetically there could an enthusiast that did cross shop these. Let's say I'm an enthusiast back in late 1999 with, that likes and wants the following

Convertible
High Revving NA motor
Great manual transmission
Japanese reliability
Good ergonomics
Good fuel economy
Fun to drive
High Performance (relative to the time of course)

This list of qualities are dynamic to the potential buyer. If this buyer just wants something fun to drive on the weekends and doesn't care about style and image, and wants to save a ton of money... (used del sol @10k vs s2000 @32k +ADM) there you go.

Would a significant number of enthusiasts make this choice between these two cars, of course not. Then again this is the example you created, and is not really representive of the type of cross shopping I'm talking about.
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Old 09-16-2022, 05:21 PM   #7811
Snow Drift
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fathatch View Post
Why don't you re-read what I wrote and interpret from that. I know what your trying to do, but I'll play ball (FWIW an ill conceived comparison beacuse years of production are offset by 3+, and price by 10k+).

Hypothetically there could an enthusiast that did cross shop these. Let's say I'm an enthusiast back in late 1999 with, that likes and wants the following

Convertible
High Revving NA motor
Great manual transmission
Japanese reliability
Good ergonomics
Good fuel economy
Fun to drive
High Performance (relative to the time of course)

This list of qualities are dynamic to the potential buyer. If this buyer just wants something fun to drive on the weekends and doesn't care about style and image, and wants to save a ton of money... (used del sol @10k vs s2000 @32k +ADM) there you go.

Would a significant number of enthusiasts make this choice between these two cars, of course not. Then again this is the example you created, and is not really representive of the type of cross shopping I'm talking about.
That's why I offered the Mini Cooper Convertible, which was available at the same time as the S2000 (UK at least). Do you consider them competitors? Or how about the Gen. 3 Mitsubishi Eclipse convertible (granted it has 4 seats).

To me, the 350Z roadster and the S2000 were competitors, rivals. I don't think the Mini Cooper Convertible or Eclipse were part of the equation, despite their similar roofs. I get that cars can be broadly shopped and we all have different preferences, but I just don't think a Civic Si and WRX are comparable. I had an Acura RSX and the WRX was on another level.

Last edited by Snow Drift; 09-16-2022 at 05:26 PM.
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Old 09-16-2022, 05:40 PM   #7812
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Are the TL/TLX - 328/330 - A4 not competitors ?
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Old 09-16-2022, 05:45 PM   #7813
Snow Drift
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No, they are premium brands. Neither is my Giulia, even though it's a 2.0T 4 cylinder sedan with AWD. It's premium and way too expensive for a WRX comparison (not that I don't love both cars, and would like both in my garage).

Sorry to derail this so far OT.

Back on track: That red MY22 that I took a picture of on 8/10 is still there and apparently on sale:

https://www.competitionsubaru.com/in...baf64n9015059/
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Old 09-16-2022, 05:50 PM   #7814
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Competitors to each other, Snow Drift...To each other...Not the WRX...One is FWD vs RWD vs AWD...But to answer the question YES they are direct competitors and have been for years. The A4 vs 3 series rivalry...At one point one car had a NA I6 RWD only vs AWD 1.8T...Still as direct competitors as it gets. Just like the WRX is a direct competitor to the Si, GTI, GLI and the N at this time.
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Old 09-16-2022, 06:06 PM   #7815
Snow Drift
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3 Series xDrive and A4 are direct competitors. TL/TLX w/ SH-AWD are sort of competitors to them as well, but pricing is much lower.

3 Series RWD is not, that's for the C-class to handle. If you want AWD, you don't want RWD. You perceive value in AWD.

Audi was historically an odd-duck with Quattro vs the rest of the field.

***The weirdo 2-Series xDrive Grand Coupe could be a WRX GT competitor, but I they feel like very different clientele. Not really a youthful-enthusiast car.

Last edited by Snow Drift; 09-16-2022 at 06:11 PM.
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Old 09-16-2022, 06:06 PM   #7816
Snow Drift
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DP. In the same way, the Giulia Q4 (AWD) and Giulia RWD are for different buyers.

The Q4 is 100% RWD until slip, then up to 50/50, so I get a bit of both worlds...but the RWD is of course a better purist car.

Last edited by Snow Drift; 09-16-2022 at 06:14 PM.
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Old 09-16-2022, 06:30 PM   #7817
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Seems like more and more people are dialing in the JB4...We are seeing close to 400 wtq on corn now. I am curious to see what weaknesses are going to be exposed soon. I know FA20 rods got cranky around 350 wtq. I can't wait for COBB support to see how far they are going to push this thing.
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Old 09-19-2022, 10:33 AM   #7818
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The WRX's competition is clearly the Porsche 911 because they're the only cars with boxer engines, just like RX-7 was in its own class for being the only car with a rotary engine. /s

On the serious note, the new WRX is clearly being cross-shopped with the Crosstrek.
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Old 09-19-2022, 10:34 AM   #7819
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dp345
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Old 09-19-2022, 12:27 PM   #7820
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Drift View Post
Is it possible? Will car mags make the mistake bc there's no were else to put the WRX these days? Sure. Truth is, they really aren't comparable. Do you want great MPG and cheap payments, or do you want a sporty car, with bad MPG, for more money, that's capable of beating many cars twice its price, that won't get stuck in the snow. ...it does snow in Cali. I'd prefer a WRX at Bear or Heavenly.

09+ Lancer Ralliart was the last true competitor to the WRX.
Its the perfect time for Mitsubishi to strike tbh
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Old 09-19-2022, 01:39 PM   #7821
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Drift View Post
....Back on track: That red MY22 that I took a picture of on 8/10 is still there and apparently on sale:

https://www.competitionsubaru.com/in...baf64n9015059/



This car drafted on 8-12. Not sure if the independents run the same way; but, they are usually drafted a few days before they show up. No telling when it actually hit the lot.


Just saying. It still has been there a while.
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Old 09-19-2022, 02:09 PM   #7822
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Straight6 View Post
I can't wait for COBB support to see how far they are going to push this thing.
I wouldnít wait too long for COBB. Great group of folks but, it sounds like the EPA has clamped down on them. Check the COBB website. There is a bit of talk when people did the latest software update they were locked out. Canít tune, canít adjust, etc.

Sounds like Diesel Bros. issue.

The small independent tuner can slip under the EPA radar. Big ones are getting hammered.

Peace,

Greg
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Old 09-19-2022, 04:01 PM   #7823
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For me being a WRX owner and potential buyer of the new model, I am much more drawn to the GR Corolla. Nothing to do with the hatch, just that the Corolla in every detail strikes me as a more interesting car. The base Corolla GR is only a shade more than the base WRX, the markups Corolla will have initially are not a problem for me as I am not in a hurry. But with what Subaru is offering today vs the Toyota, I like the interior better, the drive train better, the exterior better. I think the Toyota is even lighter than the WRX. I wanted to fall for the new WRX but the exterior is the biggest killer for me. The cladding just kills me.
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Old 09-19-2022, 04:43 PM   #7824
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The GRC is more of a GR STI successor than it is competition to the new WRX. I mean, GR is right there in the name.
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Old 09-19-2022, 08:03 PM   #7825
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Subaru has been behind for a while now. I'm not sure people didn't recognize with this previous STIs.

When the Evo and STI came to the US in 2003/2004, it was a 4 door sedan that could compete with and even outrun some of the big v8 muscle cars and european sports cars that cost twice as much.

The GR and VA STIs couldn't keep up with the current V8 muscle cars of its time and they sure as hell weren't leaving them behind on a road course. Hell, when the VA STI was out, Chevy had V6 Camaro's that were giving it a run for its money, and the V8 models were competing with cars like the R35 GTR lol.

I think a lot of the manufactures in Japan (not just Subaru) have gotten complacent in this regard. They, as well as many other companies are focusing on other things now. It seems like they're all putting much more R&D into tarted up performance SUV/CUVs than what their "enthusiast base" cares about.

Maybe Subaru doesn't care to spend any more time adding power or performance to the WRX since they know 90% of their owners are just gonna slam it on $600 coilovers with 225 linglong tires stretched over 18x11 wheels. That's probably why the car has plastic fenders too; now these kids can't baconator them fitting rep wheels for the mad ig clout
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