ASP.... the competition...

[Scooby South]

Ok...those of us that race in BSP...know our cars....inside and out...We know what works...what doesn't...and for the most part what we can expect...

What about the other mounts in BSP...

Say John Tak's Evo



What do we know about it besides its fast...What makes it fast...

what about the Bimmers or S2000's, Z's , Vettes..

What parts make them quick...What are we looking for when we go to impound for these guys...I admit..I know nothing about the legality of whatever parts on other makes...so I figured we could come together collectively...

First to try and make us more competitive in the class

Second, to learn what to look for on other cars...

and lastly, Maybe theres something we could apply to our cars...

Thanks..

Bill

[Scooby South]

Ok ...I will try my hand at it...

-most Evo's can run a 10 in wide front wheel and 9 in rear...
-they can sport 315 tires
-they are around 340 AWHP and 340 lbs Torque
-on a stock turbo they are around 23+ lbs of boost
-suspension is pretty wide....most spring rates i know of are right around ours
Bars are open as well...most using the Race Hotchis setup. most common Spring Rates are 12k and 10k
-weight is around 2885 normal RS configuration
-LSD's

Vette:
-Strut bars are a must to be competitive
-335 rear with 295 front tires seem to be the norm
-hp is right around 375+ to the wheels torque is well over 400 lbs's
-coilovers not so common but 1000lb springs are pretty common
-Trac Bars??? are big for some reason
-Steering racks from different models vary accross the board to what ratio's they are using...some as hight 16:1 down to a GM Performance Rack to 10.5:1...
LSD or Locker

S2000:
Engine stuff for the most part, Headers, Exhaust, VTEC controller
coilovers with HUGE swaybars..spring Rates 8k and 6K...

don't know to much other stuff...

My point is..I wouldn't even know what to look for thats illegal on ANY of these cars...

What are some of the 'cheater' things to look for on these things...

[espEVO]

Originally Posted by Scooby South

Ok ...I will try my hand at it...

-most Evo's can run a 10 in wide front wheel and 9 in rear...
-they can sport 315 tires
-they are around 340 AWHP and 340 lbs Torque
-on a stock turbo they are around 23+ lbs of boost
-suspension is pretty wide....most spring rates i know of are right around ours
Bars are open as well...most using the Race Hotchis setup. most common Spring Rates are 12k and 10k
-weight is around 2885 normal RS configuration
-LSD's

10" front is about max on stock fender, 9.5 is std rear
std tires are 285 or 295, not 315
hp is about right for an evo9 on race gas on a dynojet
that boost is a little high for pump, probably about right for race gas
sway bars are somewhat common in the rear, but can present issues with droop travel, I think you guys have the same issue
spring rates are not 12/10....more is necessary w/r comps
that weight sounds a little low for an evo in SP trim, although it's probably doable on a stripped RS

I can't comment on the other 2 as I don't own one.

[adhowe70]

Originally Posted by Scooby South

S2000:
Engine stuff for the most part, Headers, Exhaust, VTEC controller
coilovers with HUGE swaybars..spring Rates 8k and 6K...

I trophied once at Nats in a BS S2000... The biggest advantage these guys have is HUGE tires and wheels. The cars will fit 245/275 in stock class. Also, my stock legal car weighed less than 2700 pounds on the scales in '04. Another big advantage for them is good suspension geometry. All the camber you can want STOCK. Oh, and a 50/50 weight distribution.

A well setup S2000 will probably not have HUGE bars. The enormous front bar thing is a carryover from stock. Anyone worth their salt will properly setup the car and lose the huge front bar. A well setup S2000 will lift the inside front tire off the ground at corner exit (mine did) and will slalom like a CSP Miata. Spring rates should be at least as much as noted above, particularly in the rear to limit the dynamic toe changes under bump.

The cars should be able to make between 250 and 300 horsepower in SP trim, but there's not much extra to wring out of the engine. Honda took almost all of it in its stock form. The big powertrain item is the rear differential. The OE torsen unit (aside from being a little on the weak side) is prone to wheelspin when lifting the inside rear tire off the ground. While suspension setup can largely fix this problem, a good differential will solve it. Of course, this just results in the car being NASTY to drive, as you'll light up both rear tires mid-corner if you're not careful. If you're going to beat the S2000, you'll do it with gearing. The AP1 cars will reach 65mph in 2nd gear, but need to downshift to first below about 35mph. The AP2 cars can lug 2nd down to around 30mph, but need to shift to 3rd at about 60mph. Neither of these cars has safe headroom to be raising rev-limits without serious internal engine work. The only other way to beat them is in the slick conditions. The cars are wicked when its slick... damn near impossible to drive fast.

[Chiketkd]

Looks like my answer is in post #10...

Originally Posted by adhowe70

I trophied once at Nats in a BS S2000... The biggest advantage these guys have is HUGE tires and wheels. The cars will fit 245/275 in stock class. Also, my stock legal car weighed less than 2700 pounds on the scales in '04. Another big advantage for them is good suspension geometry. All the camber you can want STOCK. Oh, and a 50/50 weight distribution.

A well setup S2000 will probably not have HUGE bars. The enormous front bar thing is a carryover from stock. Anyone worth their salt will properly setup the car and lose the huge front bar. A well setup S2000 will lift the inside front tire off the ground at corner exit (mine did) and will slalom like a CSP Miata. Spring rates should be at least as much as noted above, particularly in the rear to limit the dynamic toe changes under bump.

The cars should be able to make between 250 and 300 horsepower in SP trim, but there's not much extra to wring out of the engine. Honda took almost all of it in its stock form. The big powertrain item is the rear differential. The OE torsen unit (aside from being a little on the weak side) is prone to wheelspin when lifting the inside rear tire off the ground. While suspension setup can largely fix this problem, a good differential will solve it. Of course, this just results in the car being NASTY to drive, as you'll light up both rear tires mid-corner if you're not careful. If you're going to beat the S2000, you'll do it with gearing. The AP1 cars will reach 65mph in 2nd gear, but need to downshift to first below about 35mph. The AP2 cars can lug 2nd down to around 30mph, but need to shift to 3rd at about 60mph. Neither of these cars has safe headroom to be raising rev-limits without serious internal engine work. The only other way to beat them is in the slick conditions. The cars are wicked when its slick... damn near impossible to drive fast.

[crystalhelix]

Originally Posted by Scooby South

Ok ...I will try my hand at it...

-most Evo's can run a 10 in wide front wheel and 9 in rear...
true, I think we can do the same though with fender mods, so I don't think this is a biggie..
-they can sport 315 tires
But they all ran 285's at nats, same as the fast S2K with those up front and something bigger in the back I can't remember, more of the what is proper for conditions
-they are around 340 AWHP and 340 lbs Torque
I think slightly more HP but we have them by the same amount of TQ, so I call that a wash
-on a stock turbo they are around 23+ lbs of boost
I run nutty boost as well, but only in the midrange, we all know what happends to the 39 trying to run it hard to red-line
-suspension is pretty wide....most spring rates i know of are right around ours
Bars are open as well...most using the Race Hotchis setup. most common Spring Rates are 12k and 10k
No idea hear as a lot of this is setup on driving style and tire/spring/bar/damper - I ran 12/10 at nats as well
-weight is around 2885 normal RS configuration
I see no way to hit that number, but I will think about it, it's likely to be albe to get he subie light, but you'd be spending an arm and a leg on exotic replacement parts that can be lightened
-LSD's
No idea what the evo setup is like

Vette:
It seemed to me the vette's had serious traction issues and were getting loose when powering out of corners, other than that I probably agree with most of the below
-Strut bars are a must to be competitive
-335 rear with 295 front tires seem to be the norm
-hp is right around 375+ to the wheels torque is well over 400 lbs's
-coilovers not so common but 1000lb springs are pretty common
-Trac Bars??? are big for some reason
-Steering racks from different models vary accross the board to what ratio's they are using...some as hight 16:1 down to a GM Performance Rack to 10.5:1...
LSD or Locker

S2000:
Can you say most empty looking engine bay EvAR, uyeda's S2k was rediculously cool, 285's tires and low on power but more narrow (effective at shortening course) and excellent handling and weight biasing
Engine stuff for the most part, Headers, Exhaust, VTEC controller
coilovers with HUGE swaybars..spring Rates 8k and 6K...

don't know to much other stuff...

My point is..I wouldn't even know what to look for thats illegal on ANY of these cars...
All the things in the rulebook would apply. People get nabbed for solid bushings and what-not but there are probably few people that know every car in and out in BSP, best to maybe get stock photos of the engine bay of each of the major type of competition, I typically extend trust in my fellow competitors unless I blatently notice something and it's worth gripeing over...ie..I have no gripes with roof fins, body kit bumpers and stuff, hell one guy locally raced in BSP in a S2k with a carbon fiber hood, but I'd have a problem if you put a nice snail on the car that wasn't stock

What are some of the 'cheater' things to look for on these things...


Nawssss bottles...

inred

[Chiketkd]

Originally Posted by crystalhelix

Nawssss bottles...

[ULLLOSE]

Originally Posted by Scooby South

Vette:
-Strut bars are a must to be competitive
-335 rear with 295 front tires seem to be the norm
-hp is right around 375+ to the wheels torque is well over 400 lbs's
-coilovers not so common but 1000lb springs are pretty common
-Trac Bars??? are big for some reason
-Steering racks from different models vary accross the board to what ratio's they are using...some as hight 16:1 down to a GM Performance Rack to 10.5:1...
LSD or Locker

..

Strut bars, no, not needed and not used by top guys. Just adds weight.
Tires 335 rear and 315 front.
RWHP can be as low as 280 for an L98 car up to about 350 for an LT4. Tq is around 375 for all.
Coilovers not allowed, but fully adjustable mono-leafs are on the market up to about 1200lbs.
Trac bars, none.
Steering rack, the slow one is 15:1 the early C4 one is 13:1.
Weight 3000-3200lbs.

[X-Rex]

^^^^ thanks ...they alway say to know your enemy.....appreciate it..

[Chiketkd]

Holy smokes was John Tak fast at last year's nat'ls!!!

[Scooby South]

Thanks EvoESP....I appreciate it..

been surfing some other boards...and compiling a list...

Bill

[Scooby South]

hmmmmmmmmm....interesting what you can find out on other boards..

"Sorry, just found out today the car sold. The car is still in his showroom, but it has been paid for and is awaiting delivery to the lucky new owner."

MultiChampion Tom Berry has bought Tak's BSP Winning EVO...

interesting...

[PossumK]

It's here, and he likes it a lot.

(more awesome photos by Mako)
http://public.fotki.com/makofoto/200...alikesevo.html

[CamaroFS34]

Originally Posted by Scooby South

MultiChampion Tom Berry has bought Tak's BSP Winning EVO...

Both the 2006 and the 2005 Evos that Tak drove were actually owned by Andrew Lieber, who, if I'm not mistaken, owns the dealership. He also apparently has automotive ADD.

Karen

[Chiketkd]

^
What size tires does he have on that Evo?

[Scooby South]

Originally Posted by Chiketkd

^
What size tires does he have on that Evo?

285/35/18 hoosiers

[Chiketkd]

Originally Posted by Scooby South

285/35/18 hoosiers

Thanks Bill. Damn - they look thick!

Chike

[ChrisDP]

Tom Berry+Tak Evo=good for them... not as good for anyone else in BSP. Tough combo there!

[Scooby South]

adhowe70..thanks...exactly what I am looking for...

Bill

[adhowe70]

And another thing... driving a well setup S2000 is damn near orgasmic. I've haven't enjoyed myself at an event as much as I did at Nationals in '04... the car was good and I was good. Driving a poorly setup S2000 is torturous - If you're not perfect, you're spun out.

[Scooby921]

Originally Posted by Scooby South

Ok...those of us that race in BSP...know our cars....inside and out...We know what works...what doesn't...and for the most part what we can expect...

What about the other mounts in BSP...

Say John Tak's Evo



What do we know about it besides its fast...What makes it fast...

what about the Bimmers or S2000's, Z's , Vettes..

What parts make them quick...What are we looking for when we go to impound for these guys...I admit..I know nothing about the legality of whatever parts on other makes...so I figured we could come together collectively...

First to try and make us more competitive in the class

Second, to learn what to look for on other cars...

and lastly, Maybe theres something we could apply to our cars...

Thanks..

Bill

Technically that was Andy Leiber's Evo...but who's being specific here?

From what I remember while talking to John and Andy at some of the local events last year...

Its a 2006 Evo IX RS. They were running 265 or 285 Kuhmo V710 on 18" WedsSport SA90 front wheels and 5Zigen FNO1R-C rear wheels. I don't know the widths. The coilovers are a custom spring and valve job on a set of Ohlins Flag's from Works done to John Tak's specifications. Camber plates are also from Works. Interior is Sparco Pro2000 seats for both driver and passenger with Schroth harnesses. To the best of my knowledge all engine work and tuning was done by Vishnu, but Andy and John don't let out any specifics about exactly what was done.

I had a chance to ride with Andy at a test and tune. WOW is all I can say. The car scares the crap out of me! Insta-spool combined with sticky rubber = insane.

Hope that's a little helpful.

[crystalhelix]

they are running 285 hoosiers

John and Andy put a "lot" of development time into the car, data aquisition, etc...expensive shocks, and good drivers..

we have a torque advantage etc...I have more to say but I am working on a buddy's saabaru today so I can't spend much time at the computer..

more theories to come...

also...EVO's can get LOW compared to a STi

comments from friends at nationals though was that my car looked like it was towing a piano compared to Tak/Lieber's car....

I just really think they have invested development time and money wisely..

both of which most of us don't have as much of...time and money..

[BIGSKYWRX]

Interesting you mention them going lower- Whiteline has come out w/ a roll center kit for the EVO (balljoint extender/tie rod ends). Their comments were that the EVO "suffered" more than the Impreza when lowered- thus their decision to build that kit first.

Obviously such a kit wouldn't be SP legal, but thought Whitelines comments concerning roll centers- EVO vs Impreza interesting.

[Scooby South]

Originally Posted by BIGSKYWRX

Interesting you mention them going lower- Whiteline has come out w/ a roll center kit for the EVO (balljoint extender/tie rod ends). Their comments were that the EVO "suffered" more than the Impreza when lowered- thus their decision to build that kit first.

Obviously such a kit wouldn't be SP legal, but thought Whitelines comments concerning roll centers- EVO vs Impreza interesting.

yeah...I seen that too...big talk on the EVO board about it...

bill

[crystalhelix]

I haven't done the roll center calc but I have scales at the moment and plan on doing the CG calcs as well as RC on my car for this season..


hmmm...about the whiteline comment...

do evo's have a dual arm rear suspension? my memory fails me..