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Old 07-16-2019, 07:54 AM   #1101
arghx7
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That's like the cost of a fully loaded Mustang GT now.
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Old 07-16-2019, 09:52 AM   #1102
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Demand is awesome, but we lose money on every car. What should we do? I know, let's cut prices again. People are dumb enough to believe that, right? Absolutely, even the ones who paid 20% more for the same cars.
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Old 07-16-2019, 10:05 AM   #1103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arghx7 View Post
That's like the cost of a fully loaded Mustang GT now.
At first I didn't believe you but then I went and built my ideal mustang on their site. $52k+. Wow... $13k of options on Mustang?

That's not a bad starting price for the Model 3 performance.

Side note: Tesla sure does change their options, pricing, available configurations a lot and it's not model year based apparently.

Have to wonder what this will be like in the future when used buyers have to figure out what they're buying. With Tesla you won't be able to say "xx model year they switched to the round headlight" or whatever.

Not that it's a bad thing necessarily, whatever works to make Tesla long term viable, just an observation.

Last edited by elirentz; 07-16-2019 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 07-16-2019, 10:14 AM   #1104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E. Nick View Post
Demand is awesome, but we lose money on every car. What should we do? I know, let's cut prices again. People are dumb enough to believe that, right? Absolutely, even the ones who paid 20% more for the same cars.
At the same time Musk is saying "Buy now!!! We'll add software and your car will be worth 4x(or whatever) and we will raise the new price too." 😒
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Old 07-16-2019, 10:19 AM   #1105
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https://ir.tesla.com/financial-infor...rterly-results

In their Q1 letter to investors, they list the model 3 Gross margin as over 20%. But they don't break it down by model mix. I checked Q4 2018 and it doesn't give an actual number either, and I don't feel like digging through years of these letters.

Capital expenditure and R&D have been steady (as of end of Q1). And production for Q1 was basically the same as Q4 2018 for model 3, but way down for S/X. None of this is news of course, but we're still waiting on the Q2 financial results.

The big question is, what is the gross margin on the standard range Model 3's, and what is the mix of standard to long range now? What mix is sustainable? The shorts are betting that Tesla can't sustain a high % of standard range model 3's (or standard range plus). I wonder what the model mix is for BMW 3 series (4 cylinder vs 6 cylinder let's say) as a comparison. Also, what is the margin on the S/X now that prices were just dropped?
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Old 07-16-2019, 10:26 AM   #1106
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Originally Posted by elirentz View Post
At first I didn't believe you but then I went and built my ideal mustang on their site. $52k+. Wow... $13k of options on Mustang?

That's not a bad starting price for the Model 3 performance.

Side note: Tesla sure does change their options, pricing, available configurations a lot and it's not model year based apparently.

Have to wonder what this will be like in the future when used buyers have to figure out what they're buying. With Tesla you won't be able to say "xx model year they switched to the round headlight" or whatever.

Not that it's a bad thing necessarily, whatever works to make Tesla long term viable, just an observation.
They do a lot of mid model running changes rather than model year changes. Part of that is because they don't want to spend the resources on full refreshes every 4-6 years like a lot of other cars. And software updates are effectively free in the sense that it doesn't increase the manufacturing cost (higher priced component or investment in tooling).

The other thing to keep in mind is that since these are regulated as Zero emission vehicles, they don't have to deal with certification as much. They only thing they have to certify is the range. If I make a bunch of changes to an ICE car that could affect the weight or aerodynamics, I have to recertify tailpipe emission (hydrocarbon etc). So there is a finance incentive on an ICE car to group all these changes into model year changes so that you're only certifying once.

Take an Ecoboost Mustang for example. For Europe it has a particulate filter to meet Particulate Number standards. If I have to recertify for North America and for Europe, that's a lot more cost. If I have a zero emission vehicle, none of the differences in tailpipe emission standards matter.
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Old 07-16-2019, 11:21 AM   #1107
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If you want a EV muscle car, you either have to go Tesla or a custom EV car company that typically uses Tesla motors. Why are there no EV sports cars from Ford, Chevy and Dodge? For f sake, the Bolt and all the other crap they're putting out is all FWD and it doesn't NEED to be. RWD/AWD with a stoinking good car body and EV power.

stop making cars for boomers/hippies! step up and give us the EV muscle car America is waiting for.
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Old 07-16-2019, 11:40 AM   #1108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
If you want a EV muscle car, you either have to go Tesla or a custom EV car company that typically uses Tesla motors. Why are there no EV sports cars from Ford, Chevy and Dodge? For f sake, the Bolt and all the other crap they're putting out is all FWD and it doesn't NEED to be. RWD/AWD with a stoinking good car body and EV power.

stop making cars for boomers/hippies! step up and give us the EV muscle car America is waiting for.
+1.

Although I'd personally like to see something a little less "muscly"... Focus RS EV? I'd dig it.
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Old 07-16-2019, 11:50 AM   #1109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
If you want a EV muscle car, you either have to go Tesla or a custom EV car company that typically uses Tesla motors. Why are there no EV sports cars from Ford, Chevy and Dodge? For f sake, the Bolt and all the other crap they're putting out is all FWD and it doesn't NEED to be. RWD/AWD with a stoinking good car body and EV power.

stop making cars for boomers/hippies! step up and give us the EV muscle car America is waiting for.
I don't disagree with you but the big auto companies are slow to adapt and much more risk adverse. They are working on it but are really slow to market.

I also think they know it's be tough to compete against the Tesla brand in the premium EV market. The typical American car company customers buying sports/muscle cars likely don't want an expensive EV at all.
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Old 07-16-2019, 12:00 PM   #1110
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Yep, a Focus RS EV would be a great idea.

A Dodge Challenger EV would be viable with some effort. Maybe sneak a 2nd motor up front to make it AWD.

A very fast EV Mustang would be sweet blasphemy that would ultimately gain the brand more new customers than it would lose.

No need to reinvent the pony car, just adopt to the new hotrod trend.
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Old 07-16-2019, 12:07 PM   #1111
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oh, hey! This is interesting.

Quote:
The Model S Performance now costs $99,990 and includes Ludicrous Mode, which has in the past been a $20,000 option (sometimes). The Model X Performance runs $104,990 and similarly includes Ludicrous Mode as standard.
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:12 PM   #1112
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With Ludicrous mode and the updated front motor the Model S performance has got to be fastest accelerating $100k car you can buy, at least up to about 120 mph.
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:51 PM   #1113
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Originally Posted by arghx7 View Post
With Ludicrous mode and the updated front motor the Model S performance has got to be fastest accelerating $100k car you can buy, at least up to about 120 mph.
Itís probably the fastest accelerating car costing under $250k up to 120mph.
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Old 07-17-2019, 11:32 AM   #1114
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Originally Posted by arghx7 View Post
With Ludicrous mode and the updated front motor the Model S performance has got to be fastest accelerating $100k car you can buy, at least up to about 120 mph.
The 3 has better driving dynamics however, especially steering feel. Even if you had the $ to blow the 3 dual motor performance model is the ticket in the entire lineup. S only if you needed the added room.
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Old 07-17-2019, 12:07 PM   #1115
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Friend of mine bought the Model 3 performance as a replacement for his 2017 Camaro SS 1LE. He's pretty happy with it. I've got the standard dual motor non performance and I couldn't justify the increased price and higher cost of ownership (tires etc)
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Old 07-17-2019, 12:19 PM   #1116
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Originally Posted by arghx7 View Post
Friend of mine bought the Model 3 performance as a replacement for his 2017 Camaro SS 1LE. He's pretty happy with it. I've got the standard dual motor non performance and I couldn't justify the increased price and higher cost of ownership (tires etc)

Yeah, the mandatory 20Ē with lo-pro tires killed it for me. The sad thing is that aftermarket 18Ēs exist now that clear the big brakes, so one could have had the best of both worlds had Tesla not been lazy in wheel design.
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Old 07-17-2019, 01:11 PM   #1117
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Supposed to be a stealth 18" wheel option on the M3P now but you don't get a discount for that "downgrade" - have to order by phone to get it or find one already in inventory.
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Old 07-17-2019, 01:26 PM   #1118
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Supposed to be a stealth 18" wheel option on the M3P now but you don't get a discount for that "downgrade" - have to order by phone to get it or find one already in inventory.
I just heard itís now an option on the Website.
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Old 07-17-2019, 01:35 PM   #1119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pre View Post
The 3 has better driving dynamics however, especially steering feel. Even if you had the $ to blow the 3 dual motor performance model is the ticket in the entire lineup. S only if you needed the added room.
Or you simply donít like the looks of the Mode 3.
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Old 07-17-2019, 01:37 PM   #1120
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I'm not a huge fan of the model 3 looks. Looks too bubbly. I don't hate it, just don't appreciate it as much as I do the looks of other cars in its price range.

I do like the looks of this......
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/07...-electric-car/
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Old 07-17-2019, 01:45 PM   #1121
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Originally Posted by Mechie3 View Post
I'm not a huge fan of the model 3 looks. Looks too bubbly. I don't hate it, just don't appreciate it as much as I do the looks of other cars in its price range.

I do like the looks of this......
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/07...-electric-car/
Yours for the low price of $750k, assuming you make the list.
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Old 07-17-2019, 02:36 PM   #1122
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https://www.sfgate.com/business/arti...s-14102076.php

As well as it should - but at the same time this cements Tesla's position (technology not withstanding) at the front in terms of solving self driving cars. No one would be able to come close when it comes to ingesting data (1000s more installed units than their nearest competitor).

Quote:
SAN FRANCISCO - Tesla is racing to be first to the market with a self-driving car made for the masses, promising to send as soon as this year an over-the-air software update that will turn hundreds of thousands of its vehicles into robo-cars. But its push to put untested and unregulated features in the hands of its drivers is putting industry executives and regulators on edge.

Once the update arrives, Tesla vehicles will be able to drive themselves in a city the way they can perform highway cruising now, the company said. That means interpreting stop signs and traffic lights, making sharp turns, and navigating stop-and-go urban traffic and other obstacles - a far more difficult task than navigating long, relatively straight stretches of highways.

The electric-car maker said it will do that without light detection and ranging, or lidar, complex sensors that use laser lights to map the environment - technology most autonomous vehicle makers consider necessary. Even with lidar, many of those manufacturers have adopted a slow and deliberate approach to self-driving vehicles, with limited testing on public roads.

Tesla shows little sign of such caution. And because autonomous vehicles are largely self-regulated - guided by industry standards but with no clearly enforceable rules - no one can stop the automaker from moving ahead.
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Old 07-17-2019, 03:30 PM   #1123
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Slightly off-topic but worth mentioning for those who have not heard of Neuralink.

Elon is not impressed with complexity or your reluctance to live in the future right now.

He's approaching the Human to Computer interface with the same direct game plan that he's used in the past; the smartest people he can hire and aggressive, iterative projects.


Neuralink White Paper

Last edited by Keshav; 07-17-2019 at 03:38 PM. Reason: added link to whitepaper
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Old 07-17-2019, 04:32 PM   #1124
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He's approaching the Human to Computer interface with the same direct game plan that he's used in the past; the smartest people he can hire and aggressive, iterative projects.
ďFirst they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. And then they attack you and want to burn you. And then they build monuments to you.Ē
― Nicholas Klein

Good for Musk. Glad to see someone with too much money doing fun things to push humanity into the future.
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Old 07-17-2019, 04:39 PM   #1125
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I just heard itís now an option on the Website.
The price is $49,900 for that option with multi coat pearl white color and basic autopilot .. 3.2 sec 0-60 and 11.5-6sec in the 1/4th mile and you still qualify for $1750 rebate.

I wonder how this is going to affect other automakers sales. For my car I paid $64,000 for that same configuration when the model 3 was introduced
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