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Old 06-23-2019, 03:09 PM   #2301
stevieturbo
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BAP is not a speed controller as such. BAP only offers increased voltage for more output. Not less.

Aeromotive offer a PWM controller based on a load input. Which if you have no means of actually controlling the pump yourself, would be a decent option. Probably overpriced though.

And if you're only looking to reduce pump speed at idle....why bother ? Lets face it, how long do you spend at idle ?
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Old 06-23-2019, 03:16 PM   #2302
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If you have a lot of pump @ 100%, once the fuel heats up from the pumps running 100%, for example from sitting in traffic or long stop lights, then the pumps get louder. Too much fuel pumping around the system, thru the return and back to the tank, eventually heating the fuel up. At least my Bosch 044 setup did this.

From aeromotive website-Cavitation: A combination of high fuel temperature and low pressure can result in cavitation, where liquid fuel changes to vapor. In a return style EFI fuel system, the most likely place for these conditions to exist in the same place, at the same time, is at fuel pump inlet. Once cavitation starts, it will feed upon itself.

A member (pdxrealtor) recently made a thread about pressure dropping after sitting idling for awhile. My bet is his setup was likely running into this very issue. As the fuel turns to vapor the fuel pressure starts to take a real dump.
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Old 06-23-2019, 03:17 PM   #2303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevieturbo View Post
BAP is not a speed controller as such. BAP only offers increased voltage for more output. Not less.

Aeromotive offer a PWM controller based on a load input. Which if you have no means of actually controlling the pump yourself, would be a decent option. Probably overpriced though.

And if you're only looking to reduce pump speed at idle....why bother ? Lets face it, how long do you spend at idle ?
Depends on how many times a year I visit Houston.

But yeah, forgot about the bap function until after I posted. The plan way back was to relay and resistor and have the bap at higher boost levels (30 or so psi+) so the pump will flow a lot more. I likely won't need that much fuel for a while, was just trying to keep the setup open by designing it into the original wiring. There will be provisions for plenty of current already in the trunk though. And yeah, the aeromotive only drops speed, will not raise it above what the alternator provides. Sheesh, I can't believe there isn't a company who does both in one package yet...isn't it 2019?? We're about to go to Mars and already have sick all electric cars on the road that have 300+ mile range, and we can't have the simple things!
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Old 06-23-2019, 03:20 PM   #2304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDagen View Post
If you have a lot of pump @ 100%, once the fuel heats up from the pumps running 100%, for example from sitting in traffic or long stop lights, then the pumps get louder. Too much fuel pumping around the system, thru the return and back to the tank, eventually heating the fuel up. At least my Bosch 044 setup did this.

From aeromotive website-Cavitation: A combination of high fuel temperature and low pressure can result in cavitation, where liquid fuel changes to vapor. In a return style EFI fuel system, the most likely place for these conditions to exist in the same place, at the same time, is at fuel pump inlet. Once cavitation starts, it will feed upon itself.

A member (pdxrealtor) recently made a thread about pressure dropping after sitting idling for awhile. My bet is his setup was likely running into this very issue. As the fuel turns to vapor the fuel pressure starts to take a real dump.
Yeah, I was all up in that thread. Still wondering which way he's going with his pump(s). I definitely will be cooling my fuel, but am trying to also prevent any pointless added heat if possible. He was running one pump and under higher boost the fuel pressure being so high will heat it more. I'm still wondering if it was his pump actually failing, with two in a row going out.


Not to go off track much, but any opinions on the aeromotive and fuelab inline filters? I'm getting a low micron filter and theirs are very pricey, but use the newer microglas filters instead of paper. I'm considering the larger ones, would rather have more area to keep flow consistent and increase the filter change interval. The replacement filters are 'spensive.

Last edited by 2slofouru; 06-23-2019 at 03:27 PM.
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Old 06-23-2019, 03:29 PM   #2305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevieturbo View Post
And if you're only looking to reduce pump speed at idle....why bother ? Lets face it, how long do you spend at idle ?
Do you daily drive your car? To not spend any time at idle you would basically have to live in the middle of nowhere. Hitting rush hour in a semi major metropolitan area means your going to be sitting at idle for as long as it takes.

Now if we are talking about building a race car this is a totally different story.

Ill be setting my car up with a pump controller. Im not running my pumps at 100% while sitting at stoplights etc. Theres reason the car comes with a fuel pump speed controller from the factory, it eliminates the cavitation problems with efi return style fuel systems. And it works perfectly.

Also food for thought, E85 may be even worse for heating up and cavitating. Its an oxygenated fuel.
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Old 06-24-2019, 12:12 PM   #2306
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There is a Ford/Jaguar fuel pump controller that people are using. I've been meaning to test the one I have as I've sourced the connectors for it and the GD years fuel pump controller harness.
The controller uses a PWM signal I believe at 100Hz, w/ 0-50% DC... NPN/Negative switched. So to wire into a subaru you'd need to have a signal inverter and verify that the stock output will fire it OK at the, I believe, 80Hz the stock controller runs.
Less issue for me since I have a Link ECU. I'm actually using a CANbus motor controller right now with a voltage booster to run the pump at 18V.
Other option is to put a little arduino or some micro in between and have it converter the signal levels and frequency.

On a note of why not to run 100% DC at idle. With a radium FPR (the one that uses the bosch style regulator) I was getting 53-55psi fuel pressure at idle. I've since gone to their larger FPR so that may not be an issue now. But fueling at idle changes rather drastically when you bump the fuel pressure up 10psi.
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Old 06-24-2019, 12:24 PM   #2307
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Just to add my 2cents in on the Ethanol Content sensor and venturi pump placement.

HP Academy released a video on EC sensor placement. Cobb are basically the only people that say to place it before the FPR or before the rails. They say that to ensure that it stays filled. Fact of the matter is that if your return like doesn't have flow in it while you're running then you need a bigger fuel pump. Regardless... as long as it isn't restricting flow needed it doesn't matter where it is.

The venturi pump needs enough flow to function properly. The radium one is configurable but i'd also look at their documentation to determine how much flow it needs to function properly. From what I recall theirs would typically flow less than the stock venturi at the same return flow because it's designed to handle much higher return flow from a much bigger pump. Saying all that if using a surge tank you'd want to size your lift pump so that it caused the surge tank to overflow/return with enough flow to ensure the venturi pump actually pumps appropriately.
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Old 06-25-2019, 10:46 AM   #2308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2slofouru View Post
...any opinions on the aeromotive and fuelab inline filters? I'm getting a low micron filter and theirs are very pricey, but use the newer microglas filters instead of paper. I'm considering the larger ones, would rather have more area to keep flow consistent and increase the filter change interval. The replacement filters are 'spensive.
I've been using a $14 (shipped) Bosch for years on my Subies. Bosch 0450905021 Fuel Filter
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Old 06-25-2019, 10:56 AM   #2309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scargod View Post
I've been using a $14 (shipped) Bosch for years on my Subies. Bosch 0450905021 Fuel Filter
I don't believe those are technically rated for E85 if it matters.

Granted you could buy a new one of those every 3 months for a while to equal the cost of the Injector Dynamics filter i'm using but...

I like the ID fuel filter. The little filter replacement indicator is nice to have.
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Old 06-25-2019, 11:12 AM   #2310
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Might be that they are not rated for E85. Also, they have -6AN female connections on each end.
I run race gas through them.
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Old 06-26-2019, 08:29 PM   #2311
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Yeah I'm getting something that can handle alcohol with no issues, even read the microglas are designed for systems running ethanol fuel. It needs to have a lot of surface area to reduce pressure drop and keep me from having to replace it as often.

I wonder if any of the paper filters are designed to continuously run majority ethanol, you would think the oem vehicle filters on the newer flexfuel vehicles would be required to safely deal with it.

I like the aeromotive vertical canister filter as well, seems like it wouldn't be difficult to change the element when needed. Could run it in the stock location underhood. The inline filters are kind of bulky because of length, will have to wait until most engine parts are installed, to see if/where one could go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barge View Post
I don't believe those are technically rated for E85 if it matters.

Granted you could buy a new one of those every 3 months for a while to equal the cost of the Injector Dynamics filter i'm using but...

I like the ID fuel filter. The little filter replacement indicator is nice to have.
That's a pricey filter setup, where is yours mounted? I read the filtration level is 87% of 5 micron to 35, and 100% of 35 and larger. The fuelab ones I'm looking at as well state rated at 6 micron, I wonder if they have a rating setup similar to the ID.

Last edited by 2slofouru; 06-26-2019 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 06-27-2019, 07:59 AM   #2312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2slofouru View Post
That's a pricey filter setup, where is yours mounted? I read the filtration level is 87% of 5 micron to 35, and 100% of 35 and larger. The fuelab ones I'm looking at as well state rated at 6 micron, I wonder if they have a rating setup similar to the ID.
It is not the cheapest setup that's for sure but for something that meets boschs filtration specs, has an easily replaceable filter and indicator I figured it was worth breaking down and getting it.

it sits in a similar position as the stock GD fuel filters. I made a bracket that attaches to the 2 holes that are used to mount the master cylinder braces.

It'd be a tight squeeze with a washer bottle there although I plan to get my washer bottle back now that i've done a relocation/remake of the fusebox there.

I don't know if I have one specifically up but if you browse through my pics on instagram @brgperformance you should see it.
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Old 06-28-2019, 04:28 PM   #2313
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Im also buying a IDF750 to go with my E85 fueling. All good reviews plus a piece of mind when the pressure starts to die down due to a dirty filter.
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Old 06-28-2019, 05:30 PM   #2314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2slofouru View Post
Yeah I'm getting something that can handle alcohol with no issues, even read the microglas are designed for systems running ethanol fuel. It needs to have a lot of surface area to reduce pressure drop and keep me from having to replace it as often.

I wonder if any of the paper filters are designed to continuously run majority ethanol, you would think the oem vehicle filters on the newer flexfuel vehicles would be required to safely deal with it.

I like the aeromotive vertical canister filter as well, seems like it wouldn't be difficult to change the element when needed. Could run it in the stock location underhood. The inline filters are kind of bulky because of length, will have to wait until most engine parts are installed, to see if/where one could go.



That's a pricey filter setup, where is yours mounted? I read the filtration level is 87% of 5 micron to 35, and 100% of 35 and larger. The fuelab ones I'm looking at as well state rated at 6 micron, I wonder if they have a rating setup similar to the ID.
For those with room.....a filter head with a spin on filter has been used by many for ethanol stuff. Cheap and easy.
Large spin on microglass filters are readily available from the agri-machinery world. I know a few of the higher powered LS guys do this.
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Old 06-30-2019, 04:59 PM   #2315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevieturbo View Post
For those with room.....a filter head with a spin on filter has been used by many for ethanol stuff. Cheap and easy.
Large spin on microglass filters are readily available from the agri-machinery world. I know a few of the higher powered LS guys do this.
I'd considered that route, but couldn't find any that state they will handle the 140+ psi sometimes present after the fuel pump. Will search more.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Barge View Post
It is not the cheapest setup that's for sure but for something that meets boschs filtration specs, has an easily replaceable filter and indicator I figured it was worth breaking down and getting it.

it sits in a similar position as the stock GD fuel filters. I made a bracket that attaches to the 2 holes that are used to mount the master cylinder braces.

It'd be a tight squeeze with a washer bottle there although I plan to get my washer bottle back now that i've done a relocation/remake of the fusebox there.

I don't know if I have one specifically up but if you browse through my pics on instagram @brgperformance you should see it.

Checked the pic, pretty compact. I couldn't find outer dimensions on their site, even though every other dimension and spec was listed.
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Old 06-30-2019, 05:51 PM   #2316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2slofouru View Post
I'd considered that route, but couldn't find any that state they will handle the 140+ psi sometimes present after the fuel pump. Will search more.





Checked the pic, pretty compact. I couldn't find outer dimensions on their site, even though every other dimension and spec was listed.
Unless you're running some sort of methanol burning monster making a few thousand hp and a mechanical pump...I really doubt you'll ever see anywhere near 140psi.

Not sure why you'd even think you would ?
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Old 06-30-2019, 06:03 PM   #2317
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Quote:
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Unless you're running some sort of methanol burning monster making a few thousand hp and a mechanical pump...I really doubt you'll ever see anywhere near 140psi.

Not sure why you'd even think you would ?
I mistakingly put 140, meant 100+. I believe the DW400 I'm running is rated to 120. Still would like a safety margin, with all this cash under the hood. I'm not sure how many of those industrial filters have micron ratings of 10 or less and are rated for alcohol fuel and post pump pressures. I.E. if there is some random boost spike, I don't want fuel spraying out the side of a spin on filter if it's rated to a specific pressure range. I'd rather a filter designed with a specific stated pressure range.
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Old 06-30-2019, 06:43 PM   #2318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2slofouru View Post
I mistakingly put 140, meant 100+. I believe the DW400 I'm running is rated to 120. Still would like a safety margin, with all this cash under the hood. I'm not sure how many of those industrial filters have micron ratings of 10 or less and are rated for alcohol fuel and post pump pressures. I.E. if there is some random boost spike, I don't want fuel spraying out the side of a spin on filter if it's rated to a specific pressure range. I'd rather a filter designed with a specific stated pressure range.

Unless you're running 50psi base and then 50psi boost...you're never going to see near 100psi fuel pressure.

Get back to reality.
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Old 06-30-2019, 06:47 PM   #2319
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Originally Posted by stevieturbo View Post
Unless you're running 50psi base and then 50psi boost...you're never going to see near 100psi fuel pressure.

Get back to reality.
Already there, and if you read what I posted about a boost spike, you'd see why I'm trying to stay "safe". But yeah, probably best to stick with something designed specifically for vehicle fuel systems instead. Not worth the risk to hope and pray it's fine. Still going to search for pics of boosted cars running these industrial microglass filters now, out of curiosity.
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Old 07-01-2019, 09:48 AM   #2320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2slofouru View Post
...Checked the pic, pretty compact. I couldn't find outer dimensions on their site, even though every other dimension and spec was listed.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hjb...ew?usp=sharing
From my experience, ID is not very forthcoming with information beyond their marketing jargon. Awhile back I had to search around for the same info, stumbled upon this drawing. It is a nice filter but they messed up going with the asymmetrical design that limits your mounting choices.

Last edited by JarHarms; 07-01-2019 at 09:56 AM.
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Old 08-09-2019, 06:00 AM   #2321
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Need advise on necessity of fuel upgrade

Current setup:
External Bosch 044 feeding ID1000 through Aeromotive fuel rails via 6AN teflon lines

Planned power:
EWG TS 8374 @ 2 bar, pump 100 RON (I don't have access to E85 so no need to plan that route at all), 50/50 meth mix

Question:
Will swapping to ID1300 be enough, or I need to increase the feed fuel lines to 8AN as well?
I don't wish to increase base fuel pressure
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Old 08-09-2019, 09:53 AM   #2322
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Hyper,
I can attest that my TS 8374 IWG turbo @ 24PSi and making 470 on race gas is very happy. My setup is pretty much identical. I Y to my rails going in and coming out. I have an in-tank Walbro 450 and my base fuel pressure is 37 PSI.
I suspect you can make 550 on the setup.
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Old 08-09-2019, 05:32 PM   #2323
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No need to increase the feed line, I made 600+ whp on stock feed line and that’s running E85. So should be able to flow enough for 800whp or so using pump or race gas on the stock feed line.

And I was using a walbro 255 intank feeding my Bosch 044 mounted inline in the trunk so your good to go!
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Old 08-10-2019, 05:25 AM   #2324
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That's great news, I was hoping I can get away just with injector swap!
Thanks guys
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Old 08-10-2019, 06:35 PM   #2325
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So it's safe to assume my DW300 feeding the surge tank through a 6AN ptfe line to a DW400 feeding the IAG rails with 8AN ptfe to 2kcc injectors should get me in the 500whp range...with enough turbo.



At least the fuel will be there
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