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Old 02-22-2016, 02:59 PM   #226
vicious_fishes
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The 14 WILL fit with the wrx manifold.
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Old 03-03-2016, 03:31 AM   #227
vica153
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I like AWICs, so I don't want to rain on your parade but....

The CFM ratings on their website are a joke. Put there to convince people who don't know any better that the intercooler will work for them. The type 14 is rated for 700CFM / 600HP. You might be able to push 700CFM thru it, but it is not going to be removing any large amount of heat from that air. And 600hp...maybe if you put it on a naturally aspirated V8. Look at the intercooler on any turbocharge car with 600hp. Its going to be a very large FMIC with well over 600cubic inches of core volume. Even the factory STI TMIC has over 400. Then look at that type 14 AWIC at 283cubic inches.

Under light duty/DD conditions you might see some improvements on the bottom end just from the AWIC fighting off heatsoak better than a top mount. However, in a any situation where the intercooler is getting proper airflow any decent air-air will win all day.

I'm not just making this stuff up based looking at website specs. I've dyno tested the type 14 on a td05 20g setup back to back with a good FMIC. The FMIC would hold temps down all the way to redline. The AWIC was more responsive and gained nearly 2 PSI with the same wastegate duty, but as soon as it hit 3500rpm IAT started climbing VERY quickly. It was to the point we didn't feel safe doing dyno runs to redline. With IAT skyrocketing, the power was dropping off and causing the pulls thru higher RPM to last even longer. It's been a few years now, but I don't think we ever got the AWIC over 6k rpm under load because the IATs were so scary.

...Now jam 2 type 14s under the hood and I think things would work out quite nicely.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vicious_fishes View Post
I don't think they rate them by cfm meaning "choke" but rather, approximately how pressurised the charge can be before the IC simply can't cool it enough/is overwhelmed. Obviously how hot the charge gets depends on a lot of stuff so they kind of have to make a bit of a guesstimate/ballpark on what the IC can handle with some underpromise built in so people don't start buying gear that loses them performance.

But the 14 and the 13 are like $10 different so if you've got the room there's no reason not to run the 14. Bigger IS better here

In my case with my N/A manifold I only have room for the 13. I tried to get them to custom fab me one but no luck, so I'm now considering running twin coolers with one on top of the IM and one down where the battery is mounted from the factory. The fantastic thing about water cooling is that you can mount the cooler(s) anywhere you want.

Last edited by vica153; 03-03-2016 at 05:10 PM.
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Old 03-03-2016, 06:26 AM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vica153 View Post
I like AWICs, so I don't want to rain on your parade but....

The CFM ratings on their website are a joke. Put there to convince people who don't know any better that the intercooler will work for them. The type 14 is rated for 700CFM / 600HP. You might be able to push 700CFM thru it, but it is not going to be removing any large amount of heat from that air. And 600hp...maybe if you put it on a naturally aspirated V8. Look at the intercooler on any turbocharge car with 600hp. Its going to be a very large FMIC with well over 600cubic inches of core volume. Even the factory STI TMIC has over 400. Then then look at that type 14 AWIC at 283cubic inches.

Under light duty/DD conditions you might see some improvements on the bottom end just from the AWIC fighting off heatsoak better than a top mount. However, in a any situation where the intercooler is getting proper airflow any decent air-air will win all day.

I'm not just making this stuff up based looking at website specs. I've dyno tested the type 14 on a td05 20g setup back to back with a good FMIC. The FMIC would hold temps down all the way to redline. The AWIC was more responsive and gained nearly 2 PSI with the same wastegate duty, but as soon as it hit 3500rpm IAT started climbing VERY quickly. It was to the point we didn't feel safe doing dyno runs to redline. With IAT skyrocketing, the power was dropping off and causing the pulls thru higher RPM to last even longer. It's been a few years now, but I don't think we ever got the AWIC over 6k rpm under load because the IATs were so scary.

...Now jam 2 type 14s under the hood and I think things would work out quite nicely.
I assume you're a tuner. Where do you tune? Do you have any logs from the AWIC tune? I'd like to see the IAT's. Not disputing just would like more information from a random Internet guy. Did you have a reservoir or just the radiator?
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Old 03-03-2016, 05:05 PM   #229
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I'm not a tuner, although I did tune my own car...and stay at a holiday inn express last night.

At the time, I happened to have a friend with a dyno and did a little experiment with an AWIC. We should have done a better job keeping logs, but it was just a test project and once it was obvious it wasn't working well didn't bother with keeping records. The AWIC setup had a reservoir and radiator. With a fan blowing on the radiator, the AWIC water temps never increased much at all. The AWIC stayed cool. Some people think this means the AWIC is working great, but all it means is that your radiator can put out heat faster than the AWIC can pull in. Which isn't much when the AWIC is only 2/3s the size of a normal TMIC.

I don't remember exact numbers, but the difference was very dramatic. If the FMIC IAT would climb up 50F higher by redline, then the AWIC was closing in on a 150F increase as it approached 6000rpm. Watching the IAT during the FMIC pulls was boring. Steady slow increase in temps. Then the AWIC runs its was an exciting 'holy crap how high will it go'. Even using fast acting thermocouples, the temps were increasing so quickly that i don't think the measurement was even keeping up.

You don't have to take my word for it. Put a temp sensor after the intercooler. Anyone running speed/density should have the IAT sensor post intercooler anyway.

I have been thinking about a way to cram 2 type 14s under the hood. Hopefully I will get around to it sometime this year.

Last edited by vica153; 03-03-2016 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 03-04-2016, 03:33 AM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vica153 View Post
I like AWICs, so I don't want to rain on your parade but....

The CFM ratings on their website are a joke. Put there to convince people who don't know any better that the intercooler will work for them. The type 14 is rated for 700CFM / 600HP. You might be able to push 700CFM thru it, but it is not going to be removing any large amount of heat from that air. And 600hp...maybe if you put it on a naturally aspirated V8. Look at the intercooler on any turbocharge car with 600hp. Its going to be a very large FMIC with well over 600cubic inches of core volume. Even the factory STI TMIC has over 400. Then look at that type 14 AWIC at 283cubic inches.

Under light duty/DD conditions you might see some improvements on the bottom end just from the AWIC fighting off heatsoak better than a top mount. However, in a any situation where the intercooler is getting proper airflow any decent air-air will win all day.

I'm not just making this stuff up based looking at website specs. I've dyno tested the type 14 on a td05 20g setup back to back with a good FMIC. The FMIC would hold temps down all the way to redline. The AWIC was more responsive and gained nearly 2 PSI with the same wastegate duty, but as soon as it hit 3500rpm IAT started climbing VERY quickly. It was to the point we didn't feel safe doing dyno runs to redline. With IAT skyrocketing, the power was dropping off and causing the pulls thru higher RPM to last even longer. It's been a few years now, but I don't think we ever got the AWIC over 6k rpm under load because the IATs were so scary.

...Now jam 2 type 14s under the hood and I think things would work out quite nicely.
This seems odd. What temperatures did you see? we saw a 60* celsius drop with a type 14.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8B-...ature=youtu.be

Last edited by vicious_fishes; 03-04-2016 at 04:22 AM.
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Old 03-04-2016, 08:51 AM   #231
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Vica: I'd say something wasn't properly sized if you were getting results like that. Looking only at cubic inches won't really help since water conducts heat something like 8 times better than air does. It's this reason that the AWIC cores can be small. Now if the reservoir is small (or even not there) and the radiator is to small, then I can see water temps and IAT rising fairly quickly. But, if everything is sized properly, there shouldn't be a drastic temp rise like what you saw. Do you remember what size rad you had? Personally on my setup, even though I am still running the stock TD04, I use the type 13 core, but it's paired to a gallon reservoir and the type 118 radiator (26" x 7" x 2" dual pass). After multiple runs through some local back roads where average RPM is above 3500, I can pop the hood and put my hands on the intake manifold without hurting myself. I have yet to install the temp gauge, so I can't give you any true data. That will happen after the hybrid is finished and installed.
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Old 03-04-2016, 02:49 PM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vica153 View Post
I'm not a tuner, although I did tune my own car...and stay at a holiday inn express last night.

At the time, I happened to have a friend with a dyno and did a little experiment with an AWIC. We should have done a better job keeping logs, but it was just a test project and once it was obvious it wasn't working well didn't bother with keeping records. The AWIC setup had a reservoir and radiator. With a fan blowing on the radiator, the AWIC water temps never increased much at all. The AWIC stayed cool. Some people think this means the AWIC is working great, but all it means is that your radiator can put out heat faster than the AWIC can pull in. Which isn't much when the AWIC is only 2/3s the size of a normal TMIC.

I don't remember exact numbers, but the difference was very dramatic. If the FMIC IAT would climb up 50F higher by redline, then the AWIC was closing in on a 150F increase as it approached 6000rpm. Watching the IAT during the FMIC pulls was boring. Steady slow increase in temps. Then the AWIC runs its was an exciting 'holy crap how high will it go'. Even using fast acting thermocouples, the temps were increasing so quickly that i don't think the measurement was even keeping up.

You don't have to take my word for it. Put a temp sensor after the intercooler. Anyone running speed/density should have the IAT sensor post intercooler anyway.

I have been thinking about a way to cram 2 type 14s under the hood. Hopefully I will get around to it sometime this year.
Yeah I run speed density and have the GM IAT tapped into my intake manifold so I get accurate IAT's. Right now I use the 04-07 STi TMIC and of the several logs I have taken I am okay with it's performance, but not impressed. It does perform as good as or better than a lot of aftermarket TMIC's.

But, about the AWIC IC... I'm not saying I don't believe you. I'm more just scratching my head how your experience is so vastly different than pretty much everyone else. THIS THREAD on iwsti directly conflicts.

The only thing I can think of is that there was a plugged galley and water was not going through the IC, or the pump was not functioning.
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Old 03-04-2016, 03:49 PM   #233
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The thermal conductivity of water is more like 25 times higher than that of air. ~15-20 times as the air temp/pressure increases to 100C/15PSI.

This doesn't really come into play until the heat has been transferred from the charge air into the aluminum intercooler. The amount of heat transfered from the charge air to the aluminum comes down to temperature difference and time. The larger the core, the more time there will be for heat transfer to occur.

Under poor airflow conditions, the air-to-water is superior to air-to-air because the high density and specific heat of water allow the system to continue to function even if the radiator cant immediately dissipate any heat.

In relatively slow daily driving with stop/go conditions, you would see improvements with an AWIC over a TMIC even if the AWIC is smaller. Those improvements will quickly dissappear as RPM and speed increase. The cooling demand increases and TMIC starts working better with the improved airflow.

Under conditions where you have sufficient airflow, the AWIC cant pull the same amount of heat from the charge air 2/3s the time of a TMIC which is what the type 14 would be trying to do.

With a 2.0L and TD04, it could work fine enough. You're not pushing much air and its more of DD/low-mid RPM setup anyway.

With a 2.5L and trying to run anything 300+whp to redline, you would see gains with a TMIC and huge gains with a FMIC.
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Old 03-04-2016, 04:06 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vicious_fishes View Post
This seems odd. What temperatures did you see? we saw a 60* celsius drop with a type 14.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8B-...ature=youtu.be
How are your temp sensors mounted? The slow response after letting off makes think there are some heat soak/measurement issues. Once you let off the throttle and start cruising at 3k rpm, the temps should more quickly return to normal cruising temps. In the video the outside temp is 10C and the pre/post temps start at 34/14. It peaks at 95/25, and after letting off the temps don't seem to drop quickly. Hard to tell exactly from the video, the temps just dont seem as responsive as I would expect.
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Old 03-04-2016, 05:43 PM   #235
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OEM turbo location & SRI perhaps?
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Old 05-11-2016, 01:33 AM   #236
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Glad I found this thread... I've been looking at running an A2W intercooler on my WRX for a long time, but I never got around to it. But I have one on my supercharged G37. Quick question to those of you trying to get the most out of the system - Have any of you tried to fill the system with alcohol? Alcohol would pump the same as water, and as long as it doesn't dissolve the hoses, it *should* make the system more effective at pulling heat out of the air, right? And isopropyl alcohol can be bought at Target for $1/gal. Has anyone tried that?
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Old 05-15-2016, 05:42 AM   #237
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Type 14 core, Davies Craig 150l/h pump. Something wrong with your setup. Never saw iat over 38c, 26+ psi through Dom 1.5 7cm on EJ207.



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Old 05-19-2016, 08:28 AM   #238
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Finally got to test the new setup. Bench test it, that is. All the lines hooked up, filled the tank, primed the pump (surprised it needed it as it is sitting lower than the water source, but all well), and let it run for a few minutes. Then it sat overnight. Checked for leaks, which I'm quite happy to say there were none. Even though the braided lines worked quite well, I'm not doing them again. They are definitely a pain.

Crappy cell pics:
The hole I made in the fire wall. Plenty of room on the inside to get the hose turned, and keep it hidden. This is the return line to the reservoir. Runs along the pinch weld, under the carpet.



Reservoir tank and Meziere pump (20gpm), mounted to an aluminum plate, and then the plate mounted to the car with rubber grommets to help keep some of the vibrations down. Not sure if it's needed though.

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Old 06-20-2016, 03:26 PM   #239
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A little AWIC porn for us all

Garrett 1000hp core, will be mounted in the tmic location:




Last edited by Krang; 06-20-2016 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 07-01-2016, 08:57 AM   #240
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Ummmmm... BOING!!!! That'll be killer with your EFR setup!
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Old 07-25-2016, 06:04 AM   #241
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Hello all, in the last couple of weeks I've been busting my ass doing a WAIC fabrication and install on an '08 that was due for a turbo upgrade.

I documented the entire build and wrote a blog post with descriptions here:
http://dmitris.gallery/2016/07/25/tu...on-on-the-wrx/

I went with a VF-39 and did a completely custom system from affordable parts.

The entire build including the turbo (and rebuild) was done under the cost of a half decent new TMIC. Before this major modification, the car was at Stage 2 (Downpipe, Custom Intake, Catback, EBCS and Opensource Tuning).

All in all the whole build is below $2k but with a LOT of custom work and elbow grease. I'm covered in burns, cuts and bruises but I'm very happy with the result (not to mention the amount of money saved on this build).

Thanks to everyone in this thread for great info and inspiration!

Here's some pictures:






Feel free to view the whole build here:
http://dmitris.gallery/2016/07/25/tu...on-on-the-wrx/
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Old 07-27-2016, 06:27 PM   #242
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Here's my setup its a custom Plazmaman are rated to 1000hp. My car has a built motor with a Gtx3076r making 502whp on E85 @27psi. Living down under in a hot climate my tuner hasn't logged above 40 degrees C intakes even after a big session of tuning

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Old 07-27-2016, 06:53 PM   #243
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Beautiful! Where's your MAF located?

I only ask because you said never logged above 40c but you're using a RAM intake which picks up engine bay temp if it was in the stock location so I assume it's relocated or custom?

I'd like to do that for my setup so I'm trying to get the info.

Thanks! That car is dope!
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Old 07-27-2016, 06:56 PM   #244
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Maybe SD tuned, no MAF just IAT sensor somewhere?
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Old 10-02-2016, 02:56 AM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioRuso View Post
Beautiful! Where's your MAF located?

I only ask because you said never logged above 40c but you're using a RAM intake which picks up engine bay temp if it was in the stock location so I assume it's relocated or custom?

I'd like to do that for my setup so I'm trying to get the info.

Thanks! That car is dope!
No maf mate running a link G4+ so map sensor only. I have an inlet temp sensor set up just before the throttle body. It's a rotated setup yes.
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Old 10-02-2016, 08:42 PM   #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CEEBEE View Post
No maf mate running a link G4+ so map sensor only. I have an inlet temp sensor set up just before the throttle body. It's a rotated setup yes.
Speed density map?
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Old 10-04-2016, 06:49 AM   #247
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No Speed Density it doesn't seem to be a big thing down here
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Old 10-06-2016, 07:06 AM   #248
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Man with one of these I might be able to get peak boost at idle!
A good TM or FM for my car is like 1000. The AWIC looks to be in the 300-500 range. Quite temping to start a fabrication adventure.
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Old 10-06-2016, 11:53 AM   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2017wrx View Post
Man with one of these I might be able to get peak boost at idle!
A good TM or FM for my car is like 1000. The AWIC looks to be in the 300-500 range. Quite temping to start a fabrication adventure.
Lol! Erm I hope not, that would be very inefficient for your gas mileage. But with a big enough unit my vf39 is very very responsive.

Do prepare for a fun fab project and be prepared to be willing to cut up your car pretty good.

It's definitely my favorite mod hands down.
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Old 10-08-2016, 02:36 PM   #250
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It is a very, very fun project to do, I am at about 85% done. I keep getting new ideas. Mine is running in the $1300 - $1500 range though as I picky about how much I am going to cut up my car.

Once done I'll post some pics and my shopping list. Hopefully only another month out.
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