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Old 03-23-2019, 09:41 PM   #26
ilovedemhotrides
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Budget, 500whp, and pump don't belong in the same sentence. ESPESSIALLY on a non-closed deck, and then on a stock location exhaust housing. You're setting yourself up for failure. Been there, done that, cracked liners. This build plan wouldn't last a few thousand miles. If you truly want 500whp on pump gas, you need a rotated 3582 or bigger. Your fuel system isn't going to cut it on any fuel. Back to the drawing bored on this one. Your cheapest bet if you want to retain that turbo and MUCH safer route is switching to top feed, buying some ID1300X's, a Walbro 450 (an AEM340 will do it on the edge), and going flex fuel. You'll make your 550whp and have some longevity.


Thanks for this. I am looking for this. I will be getting the top feed conversion kit with the ID1300x. Walbro 450 or similar and have 2 tunes ( one for 93 wanna make 450 optimistic, and one for e85 to make a bit more)
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Old 03-24-2019, 08:08 AM   #27
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Why 2 tunes? That's the benefit of flex fuel. Cobb supports flex on your car.
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Old 03-24-2019, 10:08 AM   #28
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Definitely your bottleneck is fueling as others have said. In my experience on this issue it's better to spend the money to overbuild the fuel system the first time.

Once you reach that first power goal you will quickly want more. An overbuilt fuel system will allow you to easily increase horsepower by adding more boost on the same turbo (as long as the turbo is still within its efficiency range) and if the block is already built to handle it. Worry about pistons, rods, main/rod bearing oil clearances, and headstuds at this level in regards to the shortblock. If you think you'll ever want to go beyond 550 whp you need to get the block close decked while you're in there or you will face the consequences later on. Already 550 is more than pushing the limit of where stock sleeve crack. Don't worry about PNP the heads or oversizes valves or anything like that. You won't see a huge benefit out of those upgrades until over 550 whp but something like a 268/266 (GSC S1) or 272/272 (GSC S2) or similar type cam along with upgraded valve springs will make it a lot easier for you to hit the 500's.

In regards to ethanol, hands down the best option is the Cobb flex fuel kit. It is extremely convenient and easy to install and E REALLY wakes up every turbo. You'll tuner will actually be able to find Minimum Timing for Best Torque on E instead of having to stop short because the engine starts knocking on pump gas.

My parts suggestion for what you're doing:
-Any brand topfeed TGV deletes
-Any brand billet fuel rails (don't buy topfeed conversions, they are harder to resell if you ever want to)
-Aftermarket braided parallel fuel lines (IAG's Aeromotive compatible kit is really easy to setup and fairly priced compared to putting together your own)
-Aeromotive adjustable fuel pressure regulator (to allow an increase in base fuel pressure which effectively makes your injectors flow more cc's)
-ID1300's or ID1700's (depending on if you think you'll ever go past 550whp. If so go with the 1700's for that headroom)
-Walbro 450 hardwired to a relay (go big on the pump because if you have to bump base fuel pressure to increase the cc/min of your injectors that bump will also make it harder for the fuel pump to move fuel and that will effectively lower its LPH flow rating)
-Full Cobb flex fuel kit

As you can see you need to expand your budget. Either that or cheap out, blow it up, and do it twice.

Last edited by dev6565; 03-24-2019 at 10:13 AM.
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Old 03-24-2019, 11:27 AM   #29
ilovedemhotrides
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Originally Posted by dev6565 View Post
Definitely your bottleneck is fueling as others have said. In my experience on this issue it's better to spend the money to overbuild the fuel system the first time.

Once you reach that first power goal you will quickly want more. An overbuilt fuel system will allow you to easily increase horsepower by adding more boost on the same turbo (as long as the turbo is still within its efficiency range) and if the block is already built to handle it. Worry about pistons, rods, main/rod bearing oil clearances, and headstuds at this level in regards to the shortblock. If you think you'll ever want to go beyond 550 whp you need to get the block close decked while you're in there or you will face the consequences later on. Already 550 is more than pushing the limit of where stock sleeve crack. Don't worry about PNP the heads or oversizes valves or anything like that. You won't see a huge benefit out of those upgrades until over 550 whp but something like a 268/266 (GSC S1) or 272/272 (GSC S2) or similar type cam along with upgraded valve springs will make it a lot easier for you to hit the 500's.

In regards to ethanol, hands down the best option is the Cobb flex fuel kit. It is extremely convenient and easy to install and E REALLY wakes up every turbo. You'll tuner will actually be able to find Minimum Timing for Best Torque on E instead of having to stop short because the engine starts knocking on pump gas.

My parts suggestion for what you're doing:
-Any brand topfeed TGV deletes
-Any brand billet fuel rails (don't buy topfeed conversions, they are harder to resell if you ever want to)
-Aftermarket braided parallel fuel lines (IAG's Aeromotive compatible kit is really easy to setup and fairly priced compared to putting together your own)
-Aeromotive adjustable fuel pressure regulator (to allow an increase in base fuel pressure which effectively makes your injectors flow more cc's)
-ID1300's or ID1700's (depending on if you think you'll ever go past 550whp. If so go with the 1700's for that headroom)
-Walbro 450 hardwired to a relay (go big on the pump because if you have to bump base fuel pressure to increase the cc/min of your injectors that bump will also make it harder for the fuel pump to move fuel and that will effectively lower its LPH flow rating)
-Full Cobb flex fuel kit

As you can see you need to expand your budget. Either that or cheap out, blow it up, and do it twice.


Thank you SO much for this. Really appreciate the detail. Ok so I realize now this is not so much a budget build. Just the little things like killer b oil pickup, springs / retainers are crazy expensive. Iíve spend over 1,000 on just little odds and ends that I didnít really consider at first glance.

So I am definitely not trying to make more than 550whp. 500 at the wheels would be more than enough for a fun weekend street car. I want to stay stock semi open deck.

I think Iíll build the motor, and put all the money into that right now and maybe a few months down the road after I recover from the motor build upgrade the fueling system.

Ok so if I do the conversion for the top feed, I can just get the new top feed tgv delete and new injectors and itís plug and play?

I have the exedy stage 2 clutch non HD rated for 380tq at the wheels but am considering updating it to the HD version rated for 520tq. I am just concerned it will make driving on the street too aggressive and jumpy. What are your thoughts on this ?
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Old 03-24-2019, 11:47 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovedemhotrides View Post
Thank you SO much for this. Really appreciate the detail. Ok so I realize now this is not so much a budget build. Just the little things like killer b oil pickup, springs / retainers are crazy expensive. Iíve spend over 1,000 on just little odds and ends that I didnít really consider at first glance.

So I am definitely not trying to make more than 550whp. 500 at the wheels would be more than enough for a fun weekend street car. I want to stay stock semi open deck.

I think Iíll build the motor, and put all the money into that right now and maybe a few months down the road after I recover from the motor build upgrade the fueling system.

Ok so if I do the conversion for the top feed, I can just get the new top feed tgv delete and new injectors and itís plug and play?

I have the exedy stage 2 clutch non HD rated for 380tq at the wheels but am considering updating it to the HD version rated for 520tq. I am just concerned it will make driving on the street too aggressive and jumpy. What are your thoughts on this ?
In regards to installing a topfeed setup on a sidefeed car without using conversion rails all you'd do is purchase topfeed tgv deletes, topfeed injectors, and run New braided fuel lines. By changing the tgvs to the topfeed style you eliminate the need for any sort of conversion rail as the tgv is where the injector mounting difference is.

As for the clutch that is something you definitely shouldn't forget or cheap out on. For a clutch that will reliably hold around 500 whp you need to be looking at a twin disk setup. The multipuck disks are quite rough to drive all the time on the street. A full face disk that is more comfortable but is right on the edge of its torque capacity will wear out very quickly. For reference, I was only running 416 ft lbs of torque on E on my last setup with an ACT HDSS disk and pressure plate and the thing was almost completely worn out in only 10k miles of pretty easy street driving. Launched it only maybe 5 times in that time period. Cheaper clutches with less torque capacity = spending more on more frequent clutch changes in this power range. You'll quickly pay for a twin disk setup with the number of clutches you'll burn through. That's my 2 cents on it.
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Old 03-25-2019, 01:56 AM   #31
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Walbro 450. TORCO. Meth. This will get to 500+whp easy on an FP black.
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Old 03-25-2019, 08:13 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by ilovedemhotrides View Post
Yeah I guess you’re right. I was under the impression with a built bottom end and full bolt ons with an FP black 500whp would be no problem.

Let me rephrase my question. Given my goal to make some serious power for a fun weekend car, what is the biggest hold up or bottleneck ? Sounds like fueling. So adding in some sort of meth solution might be the key to free up some HP. Can also run bigger injectors than the 1,000cc I currently have but then I need to probably look into the conversion to top feeds.
the built bottom end doesnt really help with power, but it allows you abuse the engine more. if you are looking to make that much power. why dont you just step up to like a gtx 3576 or something?

personally i dont like the torco stuff, I had a couple of o2 sensors go out on me pretty within a year when i was using that stuff.
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Old 03-26-2019, 11:13 PM   #33
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People have mixed views on torco, I've noticed. I personally have ran it non stop, every tank, for just under a year without issue. 3oz per gallon.

It turns things orange. That's for sure.

It also allowed me to run 34-35 psi on a 7163.... And, it's gonna allow me to do the same on my 7670.

I made 450 on a dynojet with an fp green and 1 oz per gallon. 24 psi. Drop in forged pistons.

Only thing I wouldn't do again is pay someone to drop in forged pistons. That was the biggest waste of money I've done since I've been playing with subarus. I would do it myself but the cost to have it done is too close to getting a new shorty.

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Old 03-27-2019, 11:40 AM   #34
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Not to scare you, but have you driven a 500hp car before, especially one with a "short" wheelbase that the GD's have? My 02 wrx sits at 350whp on a mustang dyno and it was a definite shock the first time I took it out. We will be finalizing the tune here in the next month or so and it should end up with about 400hp, but part of me doesn't want to go that far. I already get some lift on the front wheels and can feel them start to loose traction.
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Old 03-27-2019, 02:22 PM   #35
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^^ good point. I remember my first few wot at 380 in my tank at 3800 lbs. I don't think it's as much the actual hp, but how it all of a sudden hits.

I had a 12.5 Second supercharged 5.0l Mustang and it didn't hit like the subie.

Start out low and turn it up slow. Some shops insist on this.
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Old 03-27-2019, 03:18 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by svynx View Post
Not to scare you, but have you driven a 500hp car before, especially one with a "short" wheelbase that the GD's have? My 02 wrx sits at 350whp on a mustang dyno and it was a definite shock the first time I took it out. We will be finalizing the tune here in the next month or so and it should end up with about 400hp, but part of me doesn't want to go that far. I already get some lift on the front wheels and can feel them start to loose traction.

This is less a WHP issue and more a general car set-up issue. At 500whp my '04 has no front end lifting issues ever.
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Old 03-27-2019, 03:23 PM   #37
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Haha... but I bet your car spins em' in second gear
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Old 03-27-2019, 03:33 PM   #38
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Haha... but I bet your car spins em' in second gear
LOL, I can make them do most whatever I want but the car keeps nice and flat the whole time.
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Old 04-10-2019, 06:52 PM   #39
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So my budget build is turning more into a "holy crap this is expensive build" changed my fueling to from 1000cc side feeds to 1050x top feed w/ top feed conversion rails / fuel lines, 255 walbro to 340 aem fuel pump, exedy stage 2 hd clutch, killer b oil pickup / baffle, beatrush motor mounts, cobb ap v3 in prep for a tune after break in / break in tune, probably a few other things I'm forgetting.

Was talking to my tuner and he said with this setup I should be able to make 500whp on 93. Not overly concerned with power, just excited to feel the difference
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Old 04-10-2019, 08:13 PM   #40
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I have a set of 1000cc top feeds if you want some used ones for cheaper.
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Old 04-10-2019, 09:10 PM   #41
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So my budget build is turning more into a "holy crap this is expensive build" changed my fueling to from 1000cc side feeds to 1050x top feed w/ top feed conversion rails / fuel lines, 255 walbro to 340 aem fuel pump, exedy stage 2 hd clutch, killer b oil pickup / baffle, beatrush motor mounts, cobb ap v3 in prep for a tune after break in / break in tune, probably a few other things I'm forgetting.

Was talking to my tuner and he said with this setup I should be able to make 500whp on 93. Not overly concerned with power, just excited to feel the difference
What turbo did you end up going with?
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Old 04-15-2019, 07:14 PM   #42
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Iíve been running an FP black for a few years. Previously just on low boost
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Old 04-15-2019, 07:15 PM   #43
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I have a set of 1000cc top feeds if you want some used ones for cheaper.


Thanks but at the time of posting I already bought all the parts. Just waiting on the motor to finish being built (hoping tomorrow) so I can start putting it back together
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Old 04-18-2019, 11:46 AM   #44
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So my budget build is turning more into a "holy crap this is expensive build" changed my fueling to from 1000cc side feeds to 1050x top feed w/ top feed conversion rails / fuel lines, 255 walbro to 340 aem fuel pump, exedy stage 2 hd clutch, killer b oil pickup / baffle, beatrush motor mounts, cobb ap v3 in prep for a tune after break in / break in tune, probably a few other things I'm forgetting.

Was talking to my tuner and he said with this setup I should be able to make 500whp on 93. Not overly concerned with power, just excited to feel the difference


Just curious, how much boost will it require to get 500hp from that set up?
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Old 04-20-2019, 02:12 AM   #45
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........also wondering at what HP does the Walbro 255 run out ?
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Old 04-20-2019, 06:00 PM   #46
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........also wondering at what HP does the Walbro 255 run out ?


Iíd guess 400whp or so. I know for 500 I need the AEM 340 or bigger
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Old 04-20-2019, 06:01 PM   #47
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Just curious, how much boost will it require to get 500hp from that set up?


I can report back in a few weeks. Still putting motor together (long block).

Having a major headache with turbo clearance issues hitting TGV after CNT headers
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Old 04-20-2019, 08:50 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovedemhotrides View Post
Thanks for this. I am looking for this. I will be getting the top feed conversion kit with the ID1300x. Walbro 450 or similar and have 2 tunes ( one for 93 wanna make 450 optimistic, and one for e85 to make a bit more)
turthfully if you are looking at 550 your best be is going with the id 1700. 1300 is kinda on the edege
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Old 04-20-2019, 08:50 PM   #49
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I can report back in a few weeks. Still putting motor together (long block).

Having a major headache with turbo clearance issues hitting TGV after CNT headers
dude go rotated
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Old 04-20-2019, 11:55 PM   #50
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I can report back in a few weeks. Still putting motor together (long block).

Having a major headache with turbo clearance issues hitting TGV after CNT headers
Yo! Can you loosen uppipe to header bolts? If so try doing that and see if you can position for additional clearance in the top turbo bracket.
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