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Old 07-09-2019, 09:30 PM   #51
dev6565
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Originally Posted by ScubaruImpreza05 View Post
1. Checking Temp
2. Calibrating Mic
3. Measurement (Vernier lines up with .0004)








I think what I have been doing is adding the .025 because I can just see the line, when instead I should wait until it rotates all the way around to 0 again. Lack of experience on my part
The lack of experience is showing and that is the reason things aren't making sense. This sort of thing happened to me many times on my first rebuild. Hell, I spent $300 on the wrong size lifters for my heads because I was dumb and was looking at the thousands place instead of hundreds place when adjusting lash. Simple little mistakes will happen and they aren't a big deal at long as you catch them before the engine starts again for the first time. When things don't make sense, stop, go do something else, then reevaluate your method and try again. Don't accept any measurement that doesn't make sense and isn't right because that is no better than taking no measurement at all.

Also if you measured with the mic and zero'd the bore gauge, torqued the case up all correctly, and are measuring the bearing shell 90 degrees away from the parting line of the bearing shell then that is infact your main bearing clearance and it is too tight. Adjust it accordingly using either different size bearings, mixing bearing shells half and half, or by going back to the machine shop.
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Old 07-10-2019, 10:24 AM   #52
ScubaruImpreza05
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Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
Hey man - it happens, and you're learning along the way.

I do have to say I applaud you in the effort you are taking. It looks like you're doing your homework, buying and learning to use the proper tools, and putting real thought into doing this the right way. Definite thumbs up from me!
I appreciate the encouragement. I have no experience with these kinds of measurements, and while it isn't hard once you wrap your head around it, it takes a bit of time for it to make sense to me, working with the different thousandths and the measuring tools.

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Originally Posted by dev6565 View Post
The lack of experience is showing and that is the reason things aren't making sense. This sort of thing happened to me many times on my first rebuild. Hell, I spent $300 on the wrong size lifters for my heads because I was dumb and was looking at the thousands place instead of hundreds place when adjusting lash. Simple little mistakes will happen and they aren't a big deal at long as you catch them before the engine starts again for the first time. When things don't make sense, stop, go do something else, then reevaluate your method and try again. Don't accept any measurement that doesn't make sense and isn't right because that is no better than taking no measurement at all.

Also if you measured with the mic and zero'd the bore gauge, torqued the case up all correctly, and are measuring the bearing shell 90 degrees away from the parting line of the bearing shell then that is infact your main bearing clearance and it is too tight. Adjust it accordingly using either different size bearings, mixing bearing shells half and half, or by going back to the machine shop.
Agreed with the measurement stuff. I tend to get frustrated and need to walk away, and I'll pop on here and youtube to try to figure out what I am doing wrong.

I am going to measure the mains again. I did do the 90 degrees away, and my gut is that the measurement is correct, but that is the only one I did because I wasn't sure how to read the bore gauge correctly, and there was no point going further. Once I get all the bearing measured, I am hoping I have one on the loose side so I can swap bearing halves like you said. I honestly want to run slightly loose bearing sizes because this will be used half for rallycross, half commuting as it is not a primary vehicle. Not too loose though, as I read I would need to run stronger oil pump. I took apart, measured, and cleaned my current oil pump and it is in great shape, so I'll just be reusing that.

I'll be doing the measurements again tonight. To be safe I am going to mic the crank journal and take that directly to the vice and zero the bore gauge on it and then measure the clearance. From what I understand, every line on the bore gauge is equal to .0005? So small is .0005, larger is .0010?
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Old 07-10-2019, 11:06 AM   #53
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I think what I have been doing is adding the .025 because I can just see the line, when instead I should wait until it rotates all the way around to 0 again. Lack of experience on my part

Just to state the obvious, to ease your mind from overthinking it;
Each big hash on the stationary side of the mic marked with the numbers is .100", broken down by 4 smaller hash's making each smaller one .025" each.

The fact that you can see the big "9" hash makes it >3.9XX".
The fact that you can see 1 smaller hash after 9 makes it >3.925"
Plus .013" from rotating side of the mic, which breaks each .025" hash into .001" increments. So I'd call that piston 3.938".

If you could imagine 10 imaginary hash increments in between the .012 and .013" marks (.0001"), I'd call that .0127", or 3.9377".


I currently have ~6K miles on a forged shortblock EJ257 that I assembled and built myself (first time for me too).
Brand new STi crank but used case halves just like you, and I needed to buy THREE sets of ACL races for the mains in order to get .0018-.0020". I needed STD's, HX's, and +0.025"s.
But for my rods I only needed 1 set of HX's and all 4 were .0020-.0022".
But I wouldn't compare my specs to yours since I was going for a performance rebuild, not OEM.
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Old 07-10-2019, 10:14 PM   #54
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So, remeasured all journals. I was close to spot on with original measures, just off on the .025 measurement line for some of them.

I just did the bore gauge for my 4 rods with the bearings in and torqued. I found out that I need to pull the measure straight off the journal with the mic, as trying to hand dial it in wasn't working right. I was getting way looser clearance for all of them. This (below) is basically what I got for all 4 rods, give or take less than a small line. All 4 just at the edge of the tight side for OEM clearances.

Can someone confirm below, given that my bore gauge reads in .0005 increments, that this is .0009 clearance?





I am going out to do the mains next.

Last edited by ScubaruImpreza05; 07-11-2019 at 11:50 AM.
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Old 07-10-2019, 11:15 PM   #55
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Assuming I am reading the bore gauge right, these are the clearances I am getting:

Rod 1 bearing clearance: .0009
Rod 2 bearing clearance: .0010
Rod 3 bearing clearance: .0009
Rod 4 bearing clearance: .0011

Tolerances: .0010 to .0020 inches

Main Bearing 1 Clearance: .0005
Main Bearing 2 Clearance: .0006
Main Bearing 3 Clearance: .0004
Main Bearing 4 Clearance: .0009
Main Bearing 5 Clearance: .0016

Tolerances: .0015 to .0023 inches

Cylinder 1 piston to bore clearance: .0003
Cylinder 2 piston to bore clearance: .0004
Cylinder 3 piston to bore clearance: .0006
Cylinder 4 piston to bore clearance: .0010

Tolerances: .0004 to .00012 inches


Everything is so tight. What concerns me is that 105k pistons are so tight? I feel like I am making another lack of experience error somewhere, leading to these very tight tolerance. However, they make enough sense that maybe they are that close? This engine had Amsoil 5w30 from first oil change on, maybe it is that good?

If I need to loosen the clearances by getting a second bearing set, is it ok to mix and match brands? For rods I would want I guess .0010 undersized, and for the mains I would want .0010 as well?

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Old 07-12-2019, 01:15 PM   #56
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I am getting reliable measurements (within .0001) error as I went back and remeasured a few spots. I still wanted to have a machine shop spot check, so I called my local one and explained it was my first time doing a rebuild, I wanted to make sure I was measuring right, and I would pay for their time if they could check that what they get is what I was getting. They scoffed audibly on the phone as if I had insulted them, and said they weren't interested. My guess is they didn't want to waste the time, and I guess I get it. So instead I ran out and got some plastigauge and will see what I get. I know plastigauge isn't as accurate as bore gauge, but it should still let me know I am in the right ballpark with my measurements.

If the plastigauge even says they are tight, I might try swapping in one half of the original good bearing and see if that gets me satisfactory room. I even still have the bearings labeled by journal, and this is the motor that didn't throw a rod bearing. Piston clearances I might be ok on, I will try to swap front to back and see if the clearances become acceptable, but they are mostly within spec. Rod bearings I will probably have to get a touch looser set, but I won't be able to match brand to brand as that company does not make undersized.
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Old 07-12-2019, 02:54 PM   #57
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For the tight cylinder bore PTW specs you could always throw a ball hone in there to enlarge the bores to your desired specs
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Old 07-12-2019, 05:55 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by ScubaruImpreza05 View Post
I am getting reliable measurements (within .0001) error as I went back and remeasured a few spots. I still wanted to have a machine shop spot check, so I called my local one and explained it was my first time doing a rebuild, I wanted to make sure I was measuring right, and I would pay for their time if they could check that what they get is what I was getting. They scoffed audibly on the phone as if I had insulted them, and said they weren't interested. My guess is they didn't want to waste the time, and I guess I get it. So instead I ran out and got some plastigauge and will see what I get. I know plastigauge isn't as accurate as bore gauge, but it should still let me know I am in the right ballpark with my measurements.

If the plastigauge even says they are tight, I might try swapping in one half of the original good bearing and see if that gets me satisfactory room. I even still have the bearings labeled by journal, and this is the motor that didn't throw a rod bearing. Piston clearances I might be ok on, I will try to swap front to back and see if the clearances become acceptable, but they are mostly within spec. Rod bearings I will probably have to get a touch looser set, but I won't be able to match brand to brand as that company does not make undersized.
Most local machine shops do good work but are old timers and are basically ******** about basic questions since they've been doing it so long. Just ignore them and carry on. Just make sure you know exactly what you want and what you're talking about when you go to get work done and you'll be fine.

As for the tight clearances, get the next size smaller bearing shell set and start mixing and matching to get what you want. Be aware that you can only mix and match one size up or one size down not two sizes of more up and down.

Example: Good: std/+.025mm or std/-.01m
Not good: -.010mm/+.025mm

If mixing and matching can't get the clearances big enough you must go to a machine shop and have boring/honing done to open the clearance up. Be very specific with how much oil clearance you want when doing this.
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Old 07-12-2019, 08:23 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by dev6565 View Post
Most local machine shops do good work but are old timers and are basically ******** about basic questions since they've been doing it so long. Just ignore them and carry on. Just make sure you know exactly what you want and what you're talking about when you go to get work done and you'll be fine.

As for the tight clearances, get the next size smaller bearing shell set and start mixing and matching to get what you want. Be aware that you can only mix and match one size up or one size down not two sizes of more up and down.

Example: Good: std/+.025mm or std/-.01m
Not good: -.010mm/+.025mm

If mixing and matching can't get the clearances big enough you must go to a machine shop and have boring/honing done to open the clearance up. Be very specific with how much oil clearance you want when doing this.
I did the plastigage and it confirmed that the bearings were too tight. Everything was basically between the .0015 and .0010 measurement. I swapped in one of the old bearings for each main and did plastigage and everything was .0015 or slightly looser, except bearing 3 was still a bit tight.

So, I got these for mains - https://www.rallysportdirect.com/par...zed-position-5

And these for the rod Bearings - https://www.rallysportdirect.com/par...dersized-010in
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Old 07-13-2019, 08:35 AM   #60
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Those bearings are .010" undersize, requiring a crank grind. Is that your intention or did you want bearings that ADDED clearance?
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Old 07-13-2019, 10:05 AM   #61
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Those bearings are .010" undersize, requiring a crank grind. Is that your intention or did you want bearings that ADDED clearance?
I needed to add clearance, I thought that was what I was getting. I read it as the bearings were .010 smaller/thinner which would give me more oil clearance? Realistically I need to add. 0010 to. 0015 clearance because the standard ones I got are too tight. Which ones would I need for that?

Quote:
Adjusting the clearance is easy, but probably a bit more expensive than most of us would prefer. Most quality bearing manufacturers make three versions for all the popular styles. First, thereís the standard bearing. This is where you start. If you find you need more clearance, you can purchase an undersized bearing. This means the bearing shell is thinner, which creates 0.001 more clearance than a standard bearing. An oversized bearing is the opposite. Itís thicker and takes away 0.001 of clearance.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.hotrod.com/articles/ctrp-1201-bearings-clearance-basics/amp/

Last edited by ScubaruImpreza05; 07-13-2019 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 07-13-2019, 02:45 PM   #62
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That quote is actually backwards. An undersize bearing is for an undersize crank journal. You have to think of the inside diameter of a bearing when it's assembled in a block. A .010 undersize bearing results in an i.d. that measures .010" smaller to match the .010" smaller crank journal. An oversize bearing relates to the o.d. of a bearing, e.g. the King +.005" main set. It fits a larger tunnel so it is larger on it's o.d. to fit the larger hole, even though it's i.d. is still the same.
I haven't read this entire thread but looking at your brand new Chinese tooling, I would suspect that you're not getting accurate readings. IMO an important measuring tool is a tenth's ball mic that can accurately measure the thickness of a bearing. If your new bearings measure the same as the originals, then the clearance will be the same as it was from new, so you're probably ok. But they need to be measured this way as bearings are not always exactly the thickness what the catalog says they are. Most bearings manufacturers make extra clearance bearings and usually have a suffix in the part number, such as an "X".
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Old 07-13-2019, 03:43 PM   #63
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That quote is actually backwards. An undersize bearing is for an undersize crank journal. You have to think of the inside diameter of a bearing when it's assembled in a block. A .010 undersize bearing results in an i.d. that measures .010" smaller to match the .010" smaller crank journal. An oversize bearing relates to the o.d. of a bearing, e.g. the King +.005" main set. It fits a larger tunnel so it is larger on it's o.d. to fit the larger hole, even though it's i.d. is still the same.
I haven't read this entire thread but looking at your brand new Chinese tooling, I would suspect that you're not getting accurate readings. IMO an important measuring tool is a tenth's ball mic that can accurately measure the thickness of a bearing. If your new bearings measure the same as the originals, then the clearance will be the same as it was from new, so you're probably ok. But they need to be measured this way as bearings are not always exactly the thickness what the catalog says they are. Most bearings manufacturers make extra clearance bearings and usually have a suffix in the part number, such as an "X".
Well Chinese or not, it is what I have to work with, and I am getting consistent measurements so that's a plus at least. Plastigage confirmed it is tight as well, so it is close enough.

As for the bearings, I will try and reach Rallysport but for some reason their phones are not ringing. It just hangs silently for a minute then hangs up. Hoping to reach and cancel my order quick because I paid extra for shipping and I want to save that for the correct parts.
EDIT: Too late, parts are shipped out, so i guess I will deal with it when it gets here.
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Old 07-13-2019, 04:06 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by ScubaruImpreza05 View Post
Well Chinese or not, it is what I have to work with, and I am getting consistent measurements so that's a plus at least. Plastigage confirmed it is tight as well, so it is close enough.

As for the bearings, I will try and reach Rallysport but for some reason their phones are not ringing. It just hangs silently for a minute then hangs up. Hoping to reach and cancel my order quick because I paid extra for shipping and I want to save that for the correct parts.
EDIT: Too late, parts are shipped out, so i guess I will deal with it when it gets here.
Some super nice mics and a super nice dial bore gauge is great to have but not needed. Fowler gauges (what I'm using and I believe are what you got as well?) are good quality and accurate for the price and for what you're doing. Would I use them for a 1000 whp build? Actually yeah I probably would. With the knowledge and experience to know how to use them and to know when something isn't right they work just fine. For a professional machine shop they are not good enough but us hobby guys don't have $1000 to spend on a bore gauge. A $200 one is perfectly reasonable and will give you accurate enough measurements.
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Old 07-24-2019, 08:30 PM   #65
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I'm back. Got the ACL's in a few days ago, just got to measuring them. They are all way tight. Clearances are -.0040, -.0031, etc

So, someone confirm before I make another order mistake. To gain more oil clearance, I want to order bearings like the ones in this link, which are +.0010? https://www.rallysportdirect.com/par...zed-position-5

Thank you.
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Old 07-24-2019, 09:01 PM   #66
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I didn't look at the link but if the part # has an X, like I said before, they are going to give you .001" more clearance. FWIW, few people ever need X bearings for a Subaru.
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Old 07-25-2019, 09:03 AM   #67
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I didn't look at the link but if the part # has an X, like I said before, they are going to give you .001" more clearance. FWIW, few people ever need X bearings for a Subaru.
Ok ty, I think I want a little loose anyways because of RallyX weekend warrior stuff. The new (cheap) standard bearings that came with my rebuild kit were too tight. Off to order another set of bearings.
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Old 07-31-2019, 09:00 PM   #68
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I went from too tight to a little loose.

Mains:
.0020
.0019
.0016
.0021
.0013

Rods:

.0025
.0026
.0021
.0027

I'm fine with my main numbers; They mostly fall on the higher side of the factory tolerances but within spec. It's the rods that are loose. Are those too loose? Can I make it work? Factory says .0010 to .0020. This set is a set of ACL race bearings, the other rod bearings I have are aluminum/silicone mix, so I am guessing I cannot mix and match different metal types?
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Old 07-31-2019, 09:19 PM   #69
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Mains are OK, I'd run these. Rods are too loose. Only mix and match bearing shells of the same manufacturer.
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Old 08-01-2019, 09:29 AM   #70
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Mains are OK, I'd run these. Rods are too loose. Only mix and match bearing shells of the same manufacturer.

Alright, thank you for the info. I guess I'll grab a set of standard size next.
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