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Old 10-18-2017, 09:30 AM   #251
Scargod
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
It is needle. It's the OTS one I told him to run. I had a few customers running this configuration for years. It's an idea that Dom and I kicked out years back.
There is aeration. I'll be posting some pics soon of a full solution for this.
Micah, I hope you are not talking about me because I don't even know what "OTS" means...

Chris: I am reluctant to run a 10mm. Seems like, by the chart, you are losing the potential flow rate you might need for keeping pressure up high. High being needed for racing applications. There are also other parasitic losses to a system like mine, where you have all the external hose and components.
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Old 10-18-2017, 09:53 AM   #252
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OTS = COTS = (common) off the shelf.

In this case, the Peterson valve that we started discussing...last year (?) when you were going through this build. Maybe it was 2015. I don't recall. IIRC, you had issues with the normal rear placement due to a siphoning effect going on with your teed in Accusump...

I'm working on one similar to the Ilmor based guts that we used at my old day job. Has much better flow/relief control. Good enough for Indy and NASCAR, good enough for a track Subie, but integrated for our goofie engine. Even works with the KB oil pan!

Last edited by Homemade WRX; 10-18-2017 at 09:59 AM.
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Old 10-18-2017, 11:25 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Scargod View Post
Chris: I am reluctant to run a 10mm. Seems like, by the chart, you are losing the potential flow rate you might need for keeping pressure up high. High being needed for racing applications. There are also other parasitic losses to a system like mine, where you have all the external hose and components.
Don't be reluctant. Under the right conditions the exhaust AVCS, in a DAVCS engine, can draw an additional +20% of flow, which is where the need for the 11mm pump comes from.

Even with your oiling modifications, larger clearances, remote oil cooler, oil filter(s) relocation, etc... that 10mm pump will have no problems, and it does have a higher pressure rating than the 11mm. I've seen the 10mm pumps spin to 10,000 RPMs without issue, running w-a-y more power than what you're looking to do.

I just don't see the need to move extra oil that's not going into the engine. It's sapping additional power and of course adding heat to the oil.

If you REALLY want to address the main oiling issue then go billet crank (they have better oiling & other features), precision line bore, and tight mains. Block oiling mods are helpful as well. This combination will give you the best oiling where these engines need it, the rod bearings.
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Old 10-19-2017, 11:53 PM   #254
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Steel main insert? Yes please.
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Old 10-20-2017, 07:00 PM   #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
OTS = COTS = (common) off the shelf.

In this case, the Peterson valve that we started discussing...last year (?) when you were going through this build. Maybe it was 2015. I don't recall. IIRC, you had issues with the normal rear placement due to a siphoning effect going on with your teed in Accusump...
Yes, indeed. I could not run through the Peterson to my Accusump. I left the Accusump on the rear galley spot and put the Peterson first in line, before the oil filter (with pressure sensors) and then the Mocal temperature control bypass valve and then the oil cooler. I bypass into the stock 1/2"FNPT in the bottom of the KB pan.
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Old 10-20-2017, 08:44 PM   #256
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Ditch the accusump. Or at the least make sure you're running the lowest pressure valve. Otherwise it will be recharging (reducing system pressure) at the most inopportune time.
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Old 10-22-2017, 12:06 AM   #257
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Ditch the accusump. Or at the least make sure you're running the lowest pressure valve. Otherwise it will be recharging (reducing system pressure) at the most inopportune time.
Don't you mean you should maintain a higher pre-charge air pressure in the Accusump? Then it will refill (take away engine oil) only when pressure is higher... and it will start emptying at a higher pressure. They recommend an air pre-charge between 7 and 10 psi.

What are you suggesting? The only other idea I have would be a pressure-activated one-way valve which opens at a certain, low threshold and the oil is maintained in the Accusump under a relatively high pressure. Then, oil would go back into the Accusump at a higher pressure via a second, one-way adjustable check valve. One for emptying, one for filling and relatively high air pressure in the Accusump for pushing it out. This might result in a transitional gray area where the engine has too much oil in it and would suffer from whipping, aeration and/or parasitic loss of power.
Perhaps a placebo, but I like dumping the Accusump's oil just before starting the engine.
Incidentally, I am seeing spikes up to 1.5 g's but only 1.3 that are sustained for up to five seconds in turn 9 at Palmer.
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Old 12-20-2017, 11:26 AM   #258
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I guess since we've already gone OT...
How did you run your bypass, scargod/ homemadeWrx? The thought I've had was shimming the stock bypass to a fairly high pressure (100 psi?) Then adding a filter sandwich plate and running the Peterson there.
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Old 12-20-2017, 02:40 PM   #259
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Previous page post 245
I machined a plug which replaces the spring. The bypass can't move.
A Canton adapter on the filter mount and the Peterson valve is just before the filter block so it's a short run down to the KB pan for the valve's bypass. Pretty straightforward. I don't have a battery in the front so that gives me room for the filter block, a thermostatic bypass valve and a cooler below, in front of the wheel.
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Old 12-21-2017, 01:46 PM   #260
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Oh I see, cool
I read that post before I replied, it just didn't click what you had done
What was your reasoning for going with a remote filter mount?

Also, I was looking at the pump and wondered what it would take to connect to those unused plugs in the bottom of the pump housing

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Old 12-22-2017, 10:05 AM   #261
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Oh I see, cool
I read that post before I replied, it just didn't click what you had done
What was your reasoning for going with a remote filter mount?

Also, I was looking at the pump and wondered what it would take to connect to those unused plugs in the bottom of the pump housing
To go with a bigger filter and a racing filter. IMHO, the stock location is in a very hot spot where many are using aftermarket headers and many don't adequately address the heat produced my them as well as the stock shielded manifolds do.
Then they drive the car hard and you have the poor little filter in the Devil's hell hole.
Let me restate: You mod the exhaust, retune the car, drive the car harder and leave the oiling system stock. See any problem with this? With old Volkswagens it meant almost instant death. The oil couldn't take the heat.
With the Subaru design you have the filter on a pedestal (the "cooler") and that usually places the filter right even with a header pipe.
So, I ditch the oil cooler AKA heat exchanger and put the Canton adapter on.
[IMG]http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?
attachmentid=29906&d=1402241119[/IMG]
Hoses run up, right against the timing cover till they clear the header pipes.

As to the pump, the plugs could be modified with a fitting welded-on to the drilled open plug or you could cut and weld directly to the pump, but to what end? You could have a return there to feed the engine oil. You could feed the engine with an external pump. You should see that things are fairly tight in that area with the exhaust crossover. Custom header setup or mods to a header might be in order. If you mod the pump internally to block off the outlet you could bring oil out at the bottom and return it to the filter screw-on spot with a Moroso 23815 Oil Filter Block-Off Plate. Again, the Canton adapter works well so I'm not sure I see the point!

RCM has their dry sump system where they make their own pump block-off plate and return pressurized oil to the engine there.
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Old 12-22-2017, 11:06 AM   #262
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Heck yeah, I definitely see your reasoning there, I like it. Also significantly easier filter changes...
I'm curious what filter you ended up running, I know everywhere else people like to argue about filters, OEM blue!!!
But I've always run the wix and never had an issue
I know the theory behind running the right one is the filter bypass pressure.

As far as using the pump plugs and to what end, I've read the idea elsewhere. it's to reduce the net flow through the pickup. Instead of returning the bypassed oil to the pan, return it after being cooled to the pump inlet side. The theory being that less flow through the pickup, less chance for low pressure cavitation.
Yeah, I'm sure it won't be a particularly easy thing to plumb up, but as far as the fitting... Nothing a lathe couldn't handle
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Old 12-22-2017, 11:22 AM   #263
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If you need an oil cooler because your oil temps are high, ditch the OEM cooler/header and add a remote cooler. There's no other right way to do this... but I see far more doing this than is necessary. If your temps are over 260, you're there. If not, there's little point.

As far as header heat effecting the oil filter and/or oil. It's not happening. Air is the best insulator in your engine bay and from our own testing; internal oil temps across the engine, thermal imaging exterior surfaces, etc. it adds up to squat. Heck I've seen some crappy flea-bay headers make contact with a corner of our pan and not even bring temps up to a level of concern... on track. How anyone would allow this kind of install is beyond me, but it happens. I've personally seen it a few times over the years. The fact that a Subaru EJ has a lot of hot stuff under the engine, near the pan, near the filter, has little impact on the oiling system.

In regards to the oiling system, comparing to an air-cooled VW from a design that is 80+ years old is a very poor comparison. There is far more differences than similarities. Specific to the OEM EJ oiling system, there is excess capacity, period. Is it perfect for every modified car and application? No. Can it be made worse be ill informed decisions and install errors? Absolutely. Can it be improved upon without changing the design? Of course.
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Old 12-22-2017, 11:23 AM   #264
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With a remove reservoir and pump, you can always jump it right into the filter pad too.
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Old 12-22-2017, 06:36 PM   #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattkguns View Post
Heck yeah, I definitely see your reasoning there, I like it. Also significantly easier filter changes...
I'm curious what filter you ended up running, I know everywhere else people like to argue about filters, OEM blue!!!
But I've always run the wix and never had an issue
I know the theory behind running the right one is the filter bypass pressure.

As far as using the pump plugs and to what end, I've read the idea elsewhere. it's to reduce the net flow through the pickup. Instead of returning the bypassed oil to the pan, return it after being cooled to the pump inlet side. The theory being that less flow through the pickup, less chance for low pressure cavitation.
Yeah, I'm sure it won't be a particularly easy thing to plumb up, but as far as the fitting... Nothing a lathe couldn't handle
Well, of course Chris always argues with me... In a good way.

About VW's: I used to be a VW and Porsche guy. I would hop mine up to where my VW would wheelie and keep up with 356C's and my 356A was a winning SCCA Championship Autocross car. I'm just saying that there is a point where mods overtax the engines.
Subaru's often get a bad rap for their "weak engines". Had they put an oil cooler on it and not had the oil bypassing through that tiny filter then they might have lived.
AIR, VW's did not have an oil filter other than a coarse screen. And the stock pump was too puny. Similarly, I think the 10mm Subie pump is too small for highly modded and/or clearanced engine and they must have an oil cooler.
I forgot to say that on BTOG (Bob's the Oil Guy) there seems to be some that propose that the high bypass pressures for the Subaru oil filter is because Subaru wants to get maximum mileage out of that tiny filter by loading it to the max before it bypasses. At that point you have crappy oil and contaminants freely bypassing the filter just to have the engine survive. It does not survive for long with those factors working against it and a lead footed driver.

As to heat, I agree that air works wonders (and often is free) but I wonders what parameters you had for your testing? When you are going slow there's less air movement and if you have a full pan on the car for aero, or protection, then you will get less air movement.
My 2008 STi had a plastic pan that halfway burnt away... due to a leaking up-pipe gasket after forty minutes of track time, but I'm talking more serious, race pan coverage under there that stifles air movement. I've also singed my CF splitter where it meets the headers. Again, one of those wonderful leaks from a FR system.
Though it is not what's normal or customary, some throw cheap, thin, unwrapped headers on their car. It's just one more factor when they stop at a light, idling, after going flat out and all the heat buildup and heat soak occurs and you... spin a bearing.
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Old 12-22-2017, 10:25 PM   #266
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Well, of course Chris always argues with me... In a good way.
You know I love a good debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scargod View Post
I'm just saying that there is a point where mods overtax the engines.
Subaru's often get a bad rap for their "weak engines". Had they put an oil cooler on it and not had the oil bypassing through that tiny filter then they might have lived.
Weak pistons, rods, poor rod ratio, fuel pump, injectors... the list goes on in regards to what's the weakest link and order of importance. I agree, this is with any car/engine. I think from your own personal experiences... well documented on the forums, you have that perception. Nothing wrong with that, especially if it resolves the issues you're experiencing. My own experiences and solutions do not reflect that same sentiment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scargod View Post
Similarly, I think the 10mm Subie pump is too small for highly modded and/or clearanced engine and they must have an oil cooler.
I forgot to say that on BTOG (Bob's the Oil Guy) there seems to be some that propose that the high bypass pressures for the Subaru oil filter is because Subaru wants to get maximum mileage out of that tiny filter by loading it to the max before it bypasses. At that point you have crappy oil and contaminants freely bypassing the filter just to have the engine survive. It does not survive for long with those factors working against it and a lead footed driver.
We have different opinions on pump requirements. Since my livelihood relies on my advice not blowing peoples stuff up, I am a bit biased. I have no issue with a 10mm pump at ANY power level and RPM is irrelevant... or at least they perform well to 10,000 RPMs verified.

You need an oil cooler if you're oil is too hot, period. If temps are below 260*, there's no point. It's needless spending since you're still in the oil's sweet spot for providing proper lubrication.

I haven't been on BOTOG in a bit, but I'll see if I can get over there. There are some smart fellas over there. Did anyone compare filter area and type? Or just the too common 'that filter's too small' ignorance? Size does NOT dictate flow. As far as the bypass goes, at the extended 7,500 OCI it's pressure drop is not half. Again, this is the data I've been privy to, but have no tested myself. Why? because for performance applications you're changing you oil long before then anyway. for a 3,000 mile OCI you'll see a few-ish psi pressure drop at operating temp. New OEM filters have 1-2psi drop IIRC.

What I do have to back up my own data OCIs over almost 10 years from 4 Subaru cars from stock, to built, to BIG power, under many different conditions (product dyno testing, engine development, auto-x, drag...) and reports for every oil analysis for every oil change. Not once has a report or evening refresh shown the filter was not doing its job. Again, our lively hood relies on the advice and feedback we've gained over the years. If it were horrible advice you'd see it all over the forums, because we've given it out a LOT.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scargod View Post
As to heat, I agree that air works wonders (and often is free) but I wonders what parameters you had for your testing? When you are going slow there's less air movement and if you have a full pan on the car for aero, or protection, then you will get less air movement.
My 2008 STi had a plastic pan that halfway burnt away... due to a leaking up-pipe gasket after forty minutes of track time, but I'm talking more serious, race pan coverage under there that stifles air movement. I've also singed my CF splitter where it meets the headers. Again, one of those wonderful leaks from a FR system.
Though it is not what's normal or customary, some throw cheap, thin, unwrapped headers on their car. It's just one more factor when they stop at a light, idling, after going flat out and all the heat buildup and heat soak occurs and you... spin a bearing.
I love auto-X for this reason; high load low airflow. I'm personally a bit more abusive in this regards as I prefer to brake-boost.

The belly pan has been proven many times over to improve engine bay cooling. My personal data concurs, idle temps seem to not matter what you've got on there.

Oil temps are easily monitored with thermocouples and thermocouples are cheap. IR cameras are now cheap too, and way more fun. There's nothing eventful here. The most excitement you get is if you remove the OEM cooler heater. That shows some changes. Remote coolers are fairly predictable, but can be finicky with regulation if setup poorly. If everything is woring properly temps are consistent across the engine. Measuring temps from all the drains is where it's at, but I haven't figured out how to do that accurately yet
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Old 12-23-2017, 10:46 AM   #267
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OK, Mister Smarty-Pants, I bow to the person with more experience and more thermocouples.
Did anyone compare filter area and type? Or just the too common 'that filter's too small' ignorance?
I think that was a subtle low blow.
I used to tell my employees that just because they did a "happy dance" before casting a urethane part, that it was not responsible for the part quality being better. They wanted to incorporate the happy dance ritual with every part they cast, from then on... And so it goes.
In the past four years I've seen one Subie buddy after another blow up an engine on the track. In 2012 I broke ringlands, due to my ignorance and bad advice. Now, five years and three engines later I've had no issue other than burning some exhaust valves (again, my ignorance in how I built the heads).
I've had just normal wear, and a lot of it from high boost and moderately high RPM levels. I am not particularly slow or easy on my equipment. This fall I did a one minute lap at LRP, in a Subaru hatch!
SO, I have my happy dance and it's working for me! There are so many combinations of components, clearances, quality of parts and builder quality plus oils, heat levels and driving styles that it is hard to say why my engines have not failed and others have. Could it be my reversed scoop hood?

About filters: I have a lot to learn about them. Like you say, we change our oil so frequently that OCI's are irrelevant. I talked to an engineer at Royal Purple and switched to their filter for a bit. I am using up my K&N HP 3001 filters and switching to the smaller 5002. These all have relatively high bypass numbers and siphon-back check valves.
I do worry about giving bad advice. Mostly, my advice and my mods may be overkill for most and inappropriate for many. I build my own engines too. So most will never have a build with the porting, smoothing, parts and gasket matching (blueprinting) tolerancing and attention to detail, down to the cooling passages and selection of parts, that I have. As we say in Texas, perhaps "I know how to hold my mouth right"?
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Old 12-23-2017, 09:54 PM   #268
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K&N 3001 filters to 90 microns. OEM filter is 5 microns. You may already know this, but many do not. If you're changing oil after an event it's not a big deal. Definitely NOT a filter for a street driven car. If you run your oil for longer than a very short period you WILL evidence of debris on the oil if you look at the bearing under magnification.

If you are really concerned about filtration flow, since you're running a remote filter, just run a dual filter setup and two OEM filters. Obviously you can set this up parallel or serial. Road race guys tend to run the same filters, drag guys tend to run a coarse and fine together. I've personally run two OEM filters and saw zero benefit. In fact a marginal increase in pressure drop likely due to all the extra hoses, fittings, etc.

Race guys are blowing stuff up all the time. IMO building a truck track car from a Subaru is a hefty endeavor. There are better platforms out there for the same cost, but part of the fun is taking on that challenge
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Old 12-23-2017, 11:42 PM   #269
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Not sure where you got 90. Why would the 3001 be different? I didn't dig too deep but I found this.

..."here is what they gave me for the HP-1004, and HP-2009:
Filter media efficiency (per ISO 16889):
100% at 40 microns
100% at 35 microns
100% at 30 microns
99.4% at 25 microns
98.9% at 20 microns
97.1% at 15 microns
92.3% at 10 microns
82.5% at 5 microns"

I'm not concerned about filtration as much as I am with the pressure drop when running around eight grand and trying to move a lot of oil. I also want the strength of a racing filter for 85 PSI.
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Old 12-24-2017, 10:59 AM   #270
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Not sure where you got 90. Why would the 3001 be different? I didn't dig too deep but I found this.

..."here is what they gave me for the HP-1004, and HP-2009:
Filter media efficiency (per ISO 16889):
100% at 40 microns
100% at 35 microns
100% at 30 microns
99.4% at 25 microns
98.9% at 20 microns
97.1% at 15 microns
92.3% at 10 microns
82.5% at 5 microns"

I'm not concerned about filtration as much as I am with the pressure drop when running around eight grand and trying to move a lot of oil. I also want the strength of a racing filter for 85 PSI.
My info came from a K&N engineer in the oil filter division. This goes back to 2009-2010-ish so maybe they changed the media? I was told that 'although the filters are sold and marketed in auto parts stores alongside other OEM replacement oil filters, they have a flow not filtration priority. The intended use being high performance racing applications where oil changes are performed frequently." An example I was given was high HP drag racing where the oil would be changed after a handful of passes.

I'm not at the office right now so I'm going off my old man memory, but I believe the OEM filter proof pressure is close to 200psi with max use pressure of 150psi. Again, don't quote me on this. On these engines the only time max use/proof comes into play is when the engine is cold. So when on boil, it's a non issue unless you're going to run super high oil pressure.

What oil pressure drop are you seeing, and where are the two measuring points that you're getting the drop data from?

As far as pressure/flow at 85psi, we've had these conversations before. It's dictated by bypass not the pump. Positive displacement pumps have an output relative to RPM. From 500-10,000 RPMs they are stable. The same design in superbikes is good to +16,000 RPMs. It's a tried and true design. Knowing this, you can clearly see in this vid where the bypass opens and pressure becomes relative to bypass spring characteristics and the OEM pump's bypass flow characteristics, not pump size. The temp on this is not quote HOT at the mid-190s, but within range for a 'normal' operating temp test. This engine is built (sleeved, line-bored, tolerances, clearances, billet crank, etc... ) to our high performance street spec, which is pretty close to the race engine spec minus some piston/pin changes, coatings and a couple other tricks. This engine made 597whp in a 2012 STi (stock 11mm oil pump) and was mostly used for street abuse, product development (repetitive dyno abuse) and some local auto-X. We see the same pressure characteristics with the 10mm pumps on this short block setup.

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Old 12-24-2017, 01:07 PM   #271
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It was from a post in late 2011. I think the totality of the Subaru oiling/pump is (perhaps*) finally sinking in.
I was afraid to run over 85 PSI. When I first ran my last engine I had 150 or more PSI at first and some weeping at a cam seal. With the Peterson bypass valve I dialed it down to 85. Don't know if I should crank it up some for the high-end. When at 220F it drops to 20-25ish at idle and back to 40 by 2K.
I did go to 10-40 oil this last change. I need to get my pressure data-logged, not by viewing video.
I am measuring pressure at the outlet of the filter, before the cooler. I notched my water crossover pipe to accommodate a sensor at the left rear gallery plug where the gallery feeds the center main journal. I see a 10 to 15 PSI difference. I think I recall that the largest disparity is when the oil is hotter.
*I don't understand the chart that's circulating that shows a 12mm pump with 1.9L more flow than a 10mm pump but yet the output pressure is equal. In fact they're all the same pressure rating of 14 PSI when at 600 RPM. I don't see how that's possible. The only factor that I know of is the back on a 10mm pump is deeper which makes for a bigger chamber on each side of the pump, which might help with aeration at high RPM. Then: Where is this pump data measured? A testbed or in the bowels of the engine? Update: I know that Jeff Sponaugle put together the subaru oil pump chart, so I trust the data (just don't understand it).

From the dash in the video I'm guessing that a EJ257 DAVCS engine?

Last edited by Scargod; 12-24-2017 at 02:27 PM. Reason: Added more comments.
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Old 12-24-2017, 01:55 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Scargod View Post
Not sure where you got 90. Why would the 3001 be different? I didn't dig too deep but I found this.

..."here is what they gave me for the HP-1004, and HP-2009:
Filter media efficiency (per ISO 16889):
100% at 40 microns
100% at 35 microns
100% at 30 microns
99.4% at 25 microns
98.9% at 20 microns
97.1% at 15 microns
92.3% at 10 microns
82.5% at 5 microns"

I'm not concerned about filtration as much as I am with the pressure drop when running around eight grand and trying to move a lot of oil. I also want the strength of a racing filter for 85 PSI.
I think the "normal" upper end of a rx8 is 110-115psi.

Why not run that filter-it has the correct bypass also. (It's a black Tokyo Roki too)

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Old 12-24-2017, 02:53 PM   #273
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I am also confused by the chart. How does a 11mm pump flow more than a 12mm at 6000 rpm. All things equal it should be higher. Heck at 600 rpm it is only .1/min more, which could be with margin of error.
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Old 12-24-2017, 03:07 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Scargod View Post
I was afraid to run over 85 PSI. When I first ran my last engine I had 150 or more PSI at first and some weeping at a cam seal. With the Peterson bypass valve I dialed it down to 85. Don't know if I should crank it up some for the high-end. When at 220F it drops to 20-25ish at idle and back to 40 by 2K.
I did go to 10-40 oil this last change. I need to get my pressure data-logged, not by viewing video.
I'd give a recommendation based on the conditions, which I don't know here. Generally my personal minimums for our race engines are 22psi at 1,000 RPM idle. We are usually a good bit over that. I would not want operating pressures over 100psi on a 8,000RPM engine. If the pressure gets high enough, as you know, seals suffer and beyond that the stress can cause premature failure of the outer rotor of the pump gear which results immediate catastrophic failure.

Logging is the ONLY way to do it on a racecar. Before and after filter if you want to be a filter nerd, and get rid of the port in the middle of the engine unless you just want that as 'extra' data. If you measure on the front, before the mains it WILL be higher. On the back it WILL show low and even lower when hot as the mains and all the other clearances open up at temp. If you want to scare yourself, measure at the turbo feed. You will not like what you see, it will feel wrong, but this is normal

I did the vid a while back just to depict visually how the pump and bypass work, AVCS, etc. Yes this is in a dual AVCS car (2012 STi) and you can see the pressure jump during deceleration as the exhaust cams move.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scargod View Post
I am measuring pressure at the outlet of the filter, before the cooler. I notched my water crossover pipe to accommodate a sensor at the left rear gallery plug where the gallery feeds the center main journal. I see a 10 to 15 PSI difference. I think I recall that the largest disparity is when the oil is hotter.
This is a normal pressure drop across the mains you're seeing. You're seeing the pressure drop from the feed to the drive side head too. If you want to see filter drop only, then you need a sender before/after the filter only. The drop you see now is normal for that location. Although for a general pressure feedback location I recommend top front port (where the OEM idiot light switch is). This essentially tells you what the pressure is going INTO the engine. If you want to know what it is at the end of the line (or almost at the end), the rear most port is after all mains and the head feeds. I say almost because you're missing the pressure drop from all the cam journals, turbo, etc. Turbo is the lowest and will frighten you if you monitor it because 'normal' is impressively low. From front port to rear we see a drop of 25-40psi depending on MANY factors, but this is about the normal range you see between those locations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scargod View Post
*I don't understand the chart that's circulating that shows a 12mm pump with 1.9L more flow than a 10mm pump but yet the output pressure is equal. In fact they're all the same pressure rating of 14 PSI when at 600 RPM. I don't see how that's possible.
From the dash in the video I'm guessing that a EJ257 DAVCS engine?
Remember, that's not the pump's output. It's the pump and it's intended engine's lubrication 'system'. The minimums are with clearances (pump, mains, etc...) at their service limits. If you have a fresh engine at this point, someone did something wrong.

The 12mm shows higher flow, because the engine has more oiling flow demand vs the others. From 10mm to 12mm the engine's components have significant differences: 20% displacement difference, SAVCS, DAVCS, camshafts, journal vs bearing turbo, crankshafts, squirters, etc... Putting a 12mm pump on a 10mm engine is NOT going to produce the results of this chart. It's only going to push that flow difference of the two pumps out the bypass, which as we have seen be proven time and time again, can create lubrication problems in itself.
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Old 12-24-2017, 07:04 PM   #275
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Nice post. I hope this conversation is helping someone as they sip their eggnog!

I agree that too big a pump for the application just causes problems and at a minimum, power losses. It can overheat the oil!
If I run with what you said I think it bolsters my argument relative to my setup. I am running a seriously ported 12mm pump with a 10mm back and the relief valve is disabled. Mine is a DAVCS engine with loose bearing tolerances and all external filtering, cooling and pressure management. There is flow loss from 12 feet of hose and all that extravagant crap. Crap that keeps my engine alive. Incidentally, I "rebuilt" my AVCS cam pulleys. Tuner said they were very responsive.
I am "just" asking for 470 reliable (for a race motor) WHP out of this normal block with all ARP bolts and aged head studs. That's about 600 at the crank from 2.5L.
I got that 470 with 23 PSI so I am happy with my setup. It's not for everyone. Not a DD... Could I get by with an 11? Possibly.
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