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Old 07-27-2009, 04:04 PM   #51
ULLLOSE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STirish View Post
I'm not trying to upset anyone, but why did you not just talk to them? The same point would have went across with little to no drama. Our crew is pretty green with autocrossing.

Rob
Why is it up to the competitors to point out the other guys ignorance of the rules. Bring a fing legal car or take what you get. I hate it when people try to make the other people look bad because they they followed the rules and filed a protest... When in fact the guy with the non-compliant car is at fault for making an uncomfortable situation for everyone.

When did STX become ST?
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Old 07-27-2009, 04:39 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by ULLLOSE View Post
Why is it up to the competitors to point out the other guys ignorance of the rules. Bring a fing legal car or take what you get. I hate it when people try to make the other people look bad because they they followed the rules and filed a protest... When in fact the guy with the non-compliant car is at fault for making an uncomfortable situation for everyone.

When did STX become ST?
I would venture to guess it's called compassion for a new guy in a sport at the level of a coed softball game. Don't get me wrong I love autocrossing, but some of you are way too excited. Hence, cussing at me on a forum.

We're not talking a car with more power or cheater gears here. We're talking about some heat shielding and silicon hose. Serious, I know.

While the infractions may have been insignificant, I can appreciate having a legal car.

Rob
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Old 07-27-2009, 04:41 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by STirish View Post
I would venture to guess it's called compassion for a new guy in a sport at the level of a coed softball game. Don't get me wrong I love autocrossing, but some of you are way too excited. Hence, cussing at me on a forum. Lame.

We're not talking a car with more power or cheater gears here. We're talking about some heat shielding and silicon hose. Serious, I know.

While the infractions may have been insignificant, I can appreciate having a legal car.

Rob
The bring an fing legal car was not aimed at you, it was a blanket statement for everyone.

The only lame thing I see in this thread is inferring in any way that the people who brought legal cars and filed a protest did anything wrong.

Last edited by ULLLOSE; 07-27-2009 at 04:48 PM.
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Old 07-27-2009, 04:57 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by STirish View Post
We're not talking a car with more power or cheater gears here. We're talking about some heat shielding and silicon hose. Serious, I know.

While the infractions may have been insignificant, I can appreciate having a legal car.

Rob
Rob, I disagree here - the combination of all those items could definitely be considered significant. In a sport often decided by hundreds and thousands of a second, a mod like the silicon hoses alone, that is known to increase boost response, could make all the difference. That's why a simple talking to could not work in this case - steps had to be taken to ensure that the car did not finish in front of any legal cars.
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Old 07-27-2009, 06:21 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by ULLLOSE View Post
The bring an fing legal car was not aimed at you, it was a blanket statement for everyone.

The only lame thing I see in this thread is inferring in any way that the people who brought legal cars and filed a protest did anything wrong.
Nothing was inferred right or wrong. I outright suggested it could have been handled differently. I guess we'll just have to call each other lame.

Rob
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Old 07-27-2009, 07:02 PM   #56
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Just out of curiosity how would you have handled it? and what the result would have been ? I for one tried to make sure they are not DQed and still have a chance of making a good showing at the finale.
There is always more than one side to the story. I for one would have NOT made the eventdue to work and financial constrains, and regularly do not run a codriver at National events ... But I had to .. the only reason I went up there was to block ponits from Karl (Sorry Karl , you know I still like you and all ...) . Now, they way things went I would have liked another car in front of him , but I'm sure he wouldn't have appreciated it.
Also Saturday Me and Jon were looking at the results and Me, Sebastian and Jon were all WITHIN 30 TOUSANDS of a second ... that is pretty close , you could argue that even my makeshift side skirt would have made that much of a difference ...
anyway I'm just babling here ....
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Old 07-27-2009, 07:41 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PKer Edited by STirish
If WE had just "talked to them", would they have relinquished their finishing positions with no drama?
You quoted my post with a change from "he" to "we". I was referring (like you), to the previous weekend and the Tour. My question was if *anyone* would have just "talked" to them during the Tour, would they have relinquished their positions for that event?
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Old 07-27-2009, 09:00 PM   #58
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If I believed the illegal modification(s) were the difference between my loss and a win, I would potentially protest. If not, I would most likely attempt to have a civil conversation with my competitor to work things out.

It seems talking to a few people the mentality I have gathered is, if the car is illegal, a protest should be filed. I don't agree, but it seems to be mostly a standard. Based on the circumstances, I would give the competitor a pass unless the illegal modification was a turbo, 9" wide wheels, illegal ECU modification, etc. Gross illegal modifications or refusal to remove the illegal parts. Maybe I'm just soft.

Carl's situation is a tough call given he had a tranny break loosing his Saturday afternoon runs. Arguably a decent disadvantage. Keeping in mind points were on the line as well. If I were in his shoes, I would have talked with Jon and Kevin. Gone from there. That's my style and I'm sorry if that infers anything. It's not intended.

Are my thoughts out of line? I'm apparently missing something with y'all on the other side of the fence.

Rob
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Old 07-27-2009, 09:33 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PKer View Post
You quoted my post with a change from "he" to "we". I was referring (like you), to the previous weekend and the Tour. My question was if *anyone* would have just "talked" to them during the Tour, would they have relinquished their positions for that event?
I'm sorry, I thought we were all talking about the Pro at this point given you quoted a post of mine talking about the Pro.

At the tour I would imagine they would have relinquished their positions if they knew the car was illegal. They would have been happy to source all the parts needed to get the car legal for the Pro had they known. Heck, there was no money involved for Kevin or Jon. Only pride in knowing they and the car are competitive. It was the first time the car had been at a national event since being built.

I can tell you right now, not one of us believe the car had anything to do with Jon or Kevin's placing.

You are pegging us like we're bad people with negative intentions.

Rob

Last edited by STirish; 07-27-2009 at 09:40 PM.
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Old 07-28-2009, 02:01 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by STirish View Post
You are pegging us like we're bad people with negative intentions.
nope, no way....at least from my perspective. I (and we) really look forward to racing with you and hanging out with you in the future. don't let some bad mojo bring you down (sorry, some "stoner" speak there)... rules are rules, we've all had some (some really) bad experiences with em.. it's part of the deal, no easy way to suger coat it.

you'all going to Vail? if so, we need to get our party on
(our car broke, so look for us in Geoff's Red Evo)

Doug and Tasha Mikko
#56 ST Impreza
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Old 07-28-2009, 03:24 AM   #61
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This was a Pro-Solo, right? Pro, as in, short for PRO-fessional?

At Tours, Pros and Nats, $$$ is on the line. The car had better be so clean it squeaks because money does strange things to people.
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Old 07-28-2009, 09:54 AM   #62
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nope, no way....at least from my perspective. I (and we) really look forward to racing with you and hanging out with you in the future. don't let some bad mojo bring you down (sorry, some "stoner" speak there)... rules are rules, we've all had some (some really) bad experiences with em.. it's part of the deal, no easy way to suger coat it.

you'all going to Vail? if so, we need to get our party on
(our car broke, so look for us in Geoff's Red Evo)

Doug and Tasha Mikko
#56 ST Impreza
Thanks Doug and Tasha. It's pretty easy to take what happened in a negative light even if it should not be taken that way.

We'll definitely be at Vail and beers are in order. We don't get a lot of good micro brews in UT

What happened to the 2.5RS?

Rob
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Old 07-28-2009, 12:00 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STirish View Post
I'm sorry, I thought we were all talking about the Pro at this point given you quoted a post of mine talking about the Pro.

At the tour I would imagine they would have relinquished their positions if they knew the car was illegal. They would have been happy to source all the parts needed to get the car legal for the Pro had they known. Heck, there was no money involved for Kevin or Jon. Only pride in knowing they and the car are competitive. It was the first time the car had been at a national event since being built.

I can tell you right now, not one of us believe the car had anything to do with Jon or Kevin's placing.

You are pegging us like we're bad people with negative intentions.

Rob
Please don't take it personally, I'm not trying to peg anyone as bad people, I'm sure Kevin and Jon were not intending to bring an illegal car.

I only took exception to Stimpy's use of "reception party" and this ---> emoticon. To me, it inferred that Karl had intentionally not brought it up the week before at the tour, in hopes of a blindside at the Pro; hence my response.



Edit: Damn, we suck at arguing on the internet...look at all of this "sorry, don't take it personally" crap...we sound like a bunch of pussies!
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Old 07-28-2009, 07:49 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Solotoy View Post
14.10.d - Exhaust heat shields may be modified the minimum amount necessary to accommodate allowed alternate exhaust components. There's no allowance to change it. Also on 14.10.d You say that "The rule states that anything "beyond...the header/manifold or catalytic converter...may be substituted or removed"."...Really? I can't find that anywhere in the Street Touring rules.
It isn't in the Street Touring rules- it is derived from stock. If I understand how to assemble the rules correctly, everything builds off of the most basic of rules. Nobody within the protest committee could provide the full exhaust ruling for me, which was rather disappointing. I'm open to suggestion on how to properly interpret the rulebook.

Here is everything I can find in the 2009 Solo Rules, in increasing order of precedence (I've included only the important parts for clarity):

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3.3.3.B.15 SAFETY INSPECTION - VEHICLE SAFETY
Exhaust must exit behind driver or to the side of the car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3.5 VEHICLES - MUFFLERS
Adequate mufflers are required for Solo events. The criterion of
“adequacy” is not what the exhaust system consists of, but the
sound level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 13.10.E STOCK CATEGORY - ENGINE AND DRIVETRAIN
Any part of the exhaust system beyond (downstream from) the
header/manifold or catalytic converter, if so equipped, may be
substituted or removed provided the system meets the require-
ments of 3.5 and 3.3.3.B.15.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 14.10.D STREET TOURING CATEGORY - ENGINE AND DRIVETRAIN
Exhaust manifolds and headers may be replaced with alternate
units which are emissions-legal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 14.10.E STREET TOURING CATEGORY - ENGINE AND DRIVETRAIN
Any high flow catalytic converter(s) are allowed, but must attach
within six inches of the original unit. Multiple catalytic convert-
ers may be replaced by a single unit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Appendix F CLARIFICATIONS - SUBARU WRX HEAT SHIELD
For the 2002-2007 Subaru WRX, the [turbo] heat shield ... is an exhaust heat shield and is therefore
subject to “minimal modification” allowed in 14.10.D, but not
removal.
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Old 07-31-2009, 02:05 PM   #65
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The protested item pertained to wrapping the turbo. Even with all the quoted sections of the Stock and Street Touring rules there doesn't appear to be an allowance for modifying the turbo.
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Old 07-31-2009, 04:08 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stimpy View Post
Originally Posted by 13.10.E STOCK CATEGORY - ENGINE AND DRIVETRAIN
Any part of the exhaust system beyond (downstream from) the
header/manifold or catalytic converter, if so equipped, may be
substituted or removed provided the system meets the require-
ments of 3.5 and 3.3.3.B.15.
That pretty clearly says that if the car has a catalytic converter, modification can only be made after it. The turbo is before the catalytic converter, so it cannot be modified under that rule.

-Mike
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Old 07-31-2009, 05:24 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by grippgoat View Post
That pretty clearly says that if the car has a catalytic converter, modification can only be made after it. The turbo is before the catalytic converter, so it cannot be modified under that rule.

-Mike
Unless there is a clarification printed, it doesn't. The 'or' throws everything off and does it say somewhere that the catalytic converter placement trumps header placement if factory equipped for such a model?

there may be a rule or something in Fastrack about that, but I am not positive.
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Old 07-31-2009, 05:55 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Boxologist View Post
Unless there is a clarification printed, it doesn't. The 'or' throws everything off and does it say somewhere that the catalytic converter placement trumps header placement if factory equipped for such a model?

there may be a rule or something in Fastrack about that, but I am not positive.
Are there actually any cars that have a catalyic converter before the header?

The 'or' doesn't throw anything off, unless you're trying really hard to find a reason think it's legal to modify something before it.

Possible meanings of 'or':
1) Downstream from the manifold if there's no cat. Obviously.
2) Downstream from the cat if there's no manifold. Uh, how do you have a cat with no manifold? Obviously not.
3) Pick whichever is more convenient... when are the rules ever written that way? Since it's pretty much impossible to have a cat before the manifold (because the manifold bolts to the head), why would they bother mentioning the cat at all if they were going to let you mod something in front of it?
4) Downstream from the manifold, unless there's a cat, in which case downstream from the cat. Much more likely than #3. I say obvious.

-Mike
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Old 07-31-2009, 10:41 PM   #69
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The 'or' doesn't throw it off for me... It clearly intends to allow for cars that might be older then when cats were stock (soon to made a moot point by the sunset rule).

The 'or' alludes two paths. It's the "if so equipped" part that determines that path.

In cases where a cat isn't stock, anything after the manifold can be modified. In cases where a (or more than one) cat is stock, anything after the last cat can be modified.

Combine that with the ST intake rule allowing modification up to, but not including, the compressor wheel, they serve to make the turbo sacred.

I think one would be hard pressed to read those rules and still arrive at the turbo being modifiable...
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