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Old 03-01-2009, 09:45 PM   #1
rfasman
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Unhappy P0303 Misfire Needs New Engine? Please Advise!!

Hi All,
This post belongs in the Technical forums, but I'm new here and wasn't allowed to create a thread there. I could really use some advice:

I bought a 2002 Wrx wagon (all stock) with 63,000 miles last December. Everything was fine and dandy until I towed ~2000 lbs across the country with a UHaul last summer. I don't know whether the towing was responsible, but a month later my check engine light went on for the first of many times.

P0303, misfire cylinder 3. When I took it to my mechanic they first told me I needed a manifold sensor and mass air flow sensor. That didn't do the trick, and they found that cylinders 1 and 3 were at 70 psi, and the vacuum pressure was off and wavering. Spent about two grand getting the cylinders removed, remachined by a machinist, and replaced.

A month later, light back on. Reflashed the computer software. Another month later, light back on. The mechanics started to feel bad for me, and replaced spark plugs, cleaned fuel injectors, and changed the coils around for no charge.

Another month, another check engine light with misfire cylinder 3. This time they took it to the Subaru dealership and said there are 2 factors causing the misfire:

1) a 20 psi split btw/ cylinders (140, 140, 150, 160)
2) extra clearance (about 2-3 thousandths of an inch!) between the connecting rod and the crankshaft. apparently this causes the rod to rock back and forth on the crankshaft, particularly when cold, and then the gap expands when it heats up. The knock sensor then picks up noise and retards the timing. They say this excess of movement and the piston rocking (stopping and going back) will wear away the bearings and cause bigtime problems in the future. They say it will continue to misfire occasionally (especially at lower temps) and said there is nothing else they could do except for replacing the engine.

I guess it's a chicken or the egg thing as for which caused which or came first, but towing 2000+ lbs from ME to AZ may have been directly or indirectly responsible.


I don't know if this adds any pertinent info, but going above 5000 rpm has made my CEL blink on a couple of occasions. When I turn off the engine and on again the light is solid. Everything else seems to feel ok except for a really rough idle (that I noticed after towing).

They recommended I continue driving it until the engine starts knocking loudly and I notice significant deterioration in performance, which they said could be 2 months or 2 yrs. They said it should be pretty safe to drive, and that I would clearly notice noise as the engine gradually dies on me.

I don't feel particularly safe driving with the knowledge that my engine could go at any time. I look at the money I've dropped already as sunk costs, as I'd rather have my Wrx in like-new condition (it has 83,000 miles and is otherwise in great shape) for about 4 grand (if I go with a used engine) than just about any car on the road. If I can drop 4 grand on it and get 5 more solid years out of it, I would probably cut my losses and take that.

I'm really hoping to get some advice on this situation:

I've checked the forums, and it seems that the misfire cylinder 3 code is something that tons of people chase after, and few seem to fully resolve. I think my mechanics have tried everything mentioned in the forums. Is there anything else to seriously consider, considering my mechanic and the Subaru dealership are out of ideas? Should I take it somewhere else for another opinion?

As this seems to be somewhat common in the Wrx, as well as other high revving 4 cylinders, is it worth the risk getting another engine? I was thinking something between 50 and 80 thousand miles, going for about $2500 with another grand or a bit more for installation. Should I spend more to try to find a younger engine? Does it make sense to consider anything other than the '02-'04 engine?

I really love this car but I don't want to throw good money after bad.

Should I cut my losses, consider myself SOL, drive it till it blows and go into debt to buy a new car? Should I avoid long distance drives because it could blow at any moment?

Or should I consider the money I've spent already as sunk costs, get a used engine, and hope to get another 5 yrs out of the wrx?

Again, both my mechanic and Subaru insist the only solution is a new engine, and they insist that the problem can only be engine related (so if I get a new one everything should be dandy). Does that sound right to you guys?


Any advice (or sympathy) would be greatly appreciated
Thanks,
Rob
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Old 03-01-2009, 10:43 PM   #2
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Are you anywhere near Andrewtech in Gaithersburg, Maryland?
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Old 03-01-2009, 11:24 PM   #3
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nope, I'm in AZ.
why do you ask?
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Old 03-02-2009, 12:26 AM   #4
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Very little or no factual info in this thread about when it misfires.

Misfire at idle?

Misfire just as the turbo spools up?

Add info as to what mods and when you experience this problem. That is if you looking for help. As a new motor will do nothing to help with the misfire problem.
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Old 03-02-2009, 01:08 AM   #5
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good excuse for the 2.5l if ya ask me!!!
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Old 03-02-2009, 01:40 AM   #6
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sti. swap. : )
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Old 03-02-2009, 01:51 AM   #7
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Thanks for the quick replies, folks.

My understanding is that the misfire is infrequent and happens when the temp is cold and at higher rpm. does that help? I have no mods. My mechanic and the subaru dealership insist that the misfire is due to the two issues I listed, and that it will not misfire if I have a new motor installed. What makes you say a new motor won't help with the misfire problem?

The 2.5L is the regular impreza engine, right? wouldn't that make my car significantly slower?

On the other hand, my understanding is that swapping for an sti engine would be a lot more expensive and would require extra work to install and make compatible, right?
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Old 03-02-2009, 09:49 PM   #8
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The new 2.5l engines (2006+) are turbocharged.
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Old 03-02-2009, 10:31 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfasman View Post
Thanks for the quick replies, folks.

My understanding is that the misfire is infrequent and happens when the temp is cold and at higher rpm. does that help? I have no mods. My mechanic and the subaru dealership insist that the misfire is due to the two issues I listed, and that it will not misfire if I have a new motor installed. What makes you say a new motor won't help with the misfire problem?

The 2.5L is the regular impreza engine, right? wouldn't that make my car significantly slower?

On the other hand, my understanding is that swapping for an sti engine would be a lot more expensive and would require extra work to install and make compatible, right?

If your completely stock. I don't care who says what. 9 time out of 10. It's the spark plug gap. Generally your running to rich for the tune your running. Yes we know you have a stock tune. Doesn't really matter. Your spark is not strong enough for the fuel that is being delivered. This is messing with your air / fuel mixture. This is common for turbo cars.

Gap for ej205 is 0.028mm to 0.031mm

The closer the gap the stronger your spark will be.

So with that in mind this advice is give on the idea that the coil packs are in good shape and mechanically your car is in generally good maintenance. Other withs it could be something else. Yet I would lay money on the plug gap being your problem. Based on your information and the car... miles... and my experience.

Consider resetting the ecu after the problem is gone. As well clearing any cel's.



Next topic 2.5 or (the hybrid sti short block swap)

Basically you take your heads and add the EJ257 short block and put them together. You can not add the full engine with heads from the sti unless you do a full swap. As the sti heads have AVCS (variable valve timing).

So your heads and a ej257. This give 0.5L more displacement. More torque. More air flow for a larger turbo.

There is so much about this topic it will make your head spin. Yet if you do this now it will only add headaches to the problems that you currently have.
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Old 03-03-2009, 01:51 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RootUsr View Post
The new 2.5l engines (2006+) are turbocharged.
04-05 sti 2.5L's are also turbocharged
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Old 03-03-2009, 01:06 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hybrid gti 2 View Post
Yet if you do this now it will only add headaches to the problems that you currently have.
hybrid (and others),
thanks for the spark plug gap idea...it's the first I've heard of something to try besides replacing the engine. I'll check that out. Can you clarify what you mean by your statement? Do you mean that if I replace the engine without examining the spark plug gap I'll add headaches to the problem?

Assuming there is a spark plug gap issue, will that fix the compression difference between cylinders? Clearly it won't do anything about the extra 2-3 thousandth of an inch gap between the connecting rod and crank shaft. It seems like it might be related to my rough idle, but probably not my CEL blinking above 5000 rpm. Do you think the spark plug gap issue could really take care of these issues and be a reliable solution?

Also, if there is no spark plug gap problem, implying I need a new engine (or at least short block), are there any issues with using my heads with a 2.5L short block? Extra work or equipment required (saving money is a big priority for me these days)? I'm guessing it would be more expensive than the stock engine? Compatability/reliability concerns? Fuel efficiency?

Thanks so much for everyone's help. Any advice always appreciated.
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Old 03-03-2009, 01:10 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfasman View Post

P0303, misfire cylinder 3. When I took it to my mechanic they first told me I needed a manifold sensor and mass air flow sensor. That didn't do the trick, and they found that cylinders 1 and 3 were at 70 psi, and the vacuum pressure was off and wavering. Spent about two grand getting the cylinders removed, remachined by a machinist, and replaced.
What was done exactly with this repair? Not to fault your mechanical knowledge in any way but that sentence doesn't make sense. If the block was disassembled for repair, bearing play around the crank journals should have been noticed. Did a machinist/mechanic inspect the bottom end of your engine? Meaning checking the rod bearings in particular. I ask becuase rod bearings are common failure with the 02-03 subes. I know because it's happened to me and did a hybrid swap in my car.

The reason my bearings went out was completely my fault. I was taking a cruise one night into the Wisconsin Dells from IL and forgot to check my oil level before the cruise. Me being an idiot I floored her on the way up there and blew 2 rod bearings. I would imagine the load of the trailer and cross country traveling could cuase simular conditions for the bearing wear.

You say you had to spend all this money with prior repairs where items like the ones you stated would have been noticed. To be honest, YOUR mechanic doesn't seem to smart.

Last edited by HybridBoxer; 03-03-2009 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 03-09-2009, 06:07 PM   #13
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Default thanks--one more request for advice!

thanks for all of the advice, folks.

So I just spoke w/ my mechanic again. It's not the spark plug gap because they replaced the spark plugs and made sure the gap was right.

It probably was a rod bearing issue from the get-go, and I probably wasted $2000 on having the heads remachined. They said that the rod bearing problem is hard to spot, and they suggested at that point that an engine swap was the safest way to go. Maybe they should have spent the time/money to check the bottom end in more detail and push the full engine swap at that point, but oh well, there's nothing I can do now about that.

I asked about the hybrid option, as so many of you have suggested, of using my heads with either an ej205 short block or upgrading to the sti short block, and they said that would cost more than twice as much in labor ($2500 vs $1100) and could lead to further detail issues and misfires.
They said the most economical and safest/reliable approach would be an engine swap w/ a low mile full engine of an '02 wrx.

Does that sound right to you all? Why is everyone so gung-ho about the hybrid idea? Is it supposed to be that expensive or is my mechanic missing something?
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Old 03-09-2009, 11:17 PM   #14
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I'm kinda drowsy right now, so please take what I say with a grain of salt. The hybrid path is often the cheaper way to go. It's the way that I went, and it defitely saved me money. I understand that now the prices for STi blocks have gone up, so the savings may not be that great any more. It's worth looking into though. Then again, if your mechanic is talking about finding a cheap, complete 2.0 and just doing a straight swap, then I guess that would be cheaper.

I hope this makes sense.

Carlos
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Old 03-10-2009, 02:41 AM   #15
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if the machinist took your block apart and remachined the cylinders... they should have replaced the bearings anyway? if not.. id say you over paid for the machine work done.

first off.. id say fire your mechanic and get a second opinion... because you cant see 2 or 3 thousandths...nor can it be "felt" or wiggled. and they cannot see it unless they physically took it apart and measured it. you realize that a piece of computer paper is 4 thousandths thick? a human hair is 3. if this machinist was any kind of a good machinist.. he shouldve plastigauged your block and would have seen the issue then... and saved you this headache. if your mechanics only suggestion is a new engine... that is unacceptable. if your motor is knocking, losing power severely, has really bad compression, burning serious amounts of oil, or you find mass amounts of metal when you change the oil... then id say it is time for a new engine.

but looking at your compression test results... that looks like normal engine wear to me. one of your rings might not have seated properly, perhaps the valve seats are gummed up. either way... your compression looks fine. id track down someone with a used ECU on here that is for sale.. and try that one time. a reflash might not have fixxed it.

in the end... a replacement engine is not an option in my eyes.
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Old 03-10-2009, 03:03 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buds302 View Post
in the end... a replacement engine is not an option in my eyes.
really? do others agree with that idea?

both my mechanic and the subaru dealership said the same thing...only solution at this point is an engine swap.

i'm about to pull the trigger on a $3000 engine w/ 36000 miles, plus ~$1200 for installation. we've tried so many things and I just want that damn CEL to go away so I can enjoy my wrx.

Other opinions? Please help!!
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Old 03-10-2009, 06:28 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfasman View Post
thanks for all of the advice, folks.

So I just spoke w/ my mechanic again. It's not the spark plug gap because they replaced the spark plugs and made sure the gap was right.

It probably was a rod bearing issue from the get-go, and I probably wasted $2000 on having the heads remachined. They said that the rod bearing problem is hard to spot, and they suggested at that point that an engine swap was the safest way to go. Maybe they should have spent the time/money to check the bottom end in more detail and push the full engine swap at that point, but oh well, there's nothing I can do now about that.

I asked about the hybrid option, as so many of you have suggested, of using my heads with either an ej205 short block or upgrading to the sti short block, and they said that would cost more than twice as much in labor ($2500 vs $1100) and could lead to further detail issues and misfires.
They said the most economical and safest/reliable approach would be an engine swap w/ a low mile full engine of an '02 wrx.

Does that sound right to you all? Why is everyone so gung-ho about the hybrid idea? Is it supposed to be that expensive or is my mechanic missing something?
get a new mechanic.
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Old 03-10-2009, 09:50 AM   #18
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Is that the only the CEL that comes up? I mean when you have a bad rod bearing (depending on how bad it is) you will hear knocking from the engine. Do you hear a loud knock from engine? Does the car seem to crank over any slower?

Edit

Last edited by HybridBoxer; 03-10-2009 at 11:37 AM. Reason: For asking stupid question, lol
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Old 03-10-2009, 11:28 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HybridBoxer View Post
Is it only the CEL that comes up? I mean when you have a bad rod bearing (depending on how bad it is) you will hear knocking from the engine. Do you hear a loud knock from engine? Does the car seem to crank over any slower?

What's the CEL fualt code? Specific's help around here.
It's a P0303, misfire cylinder 3.
the mechanic and subaru says there is a knock, although I'm not sure I hear it. Seems to drive ok in general (not great--definitely don't notice anything dramatic), but the idle is really rough and the CEL blinks above 5000 rpm.

It costs so much money and time to have someone tinker with more engine trial-and-error issues, and I've been playing this game for 5 months now. If my mechanic misdiagnosed something in the past (and wasted my money), that is now a separate issue that I can't do anything about.

The question now is, do I go ahead and do an engine swap or keep spending money and time tinkering?
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Old 03-10-2009, 11:42 AM   #20
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1st - Sorry for asking stupid question, I forgot you already gave us the fault code. I'm just a little slow sometimes.

It seems to me you've spent your time and money with a lot of the trial and error fixes that could cause something like this. I wouldn't continue doing this, don't let your mechanic pull out the parts-shotgun as I call it.

I don't think you necessarily need to replaced the entire engine, just the shortblock can be replaced. But again, whatever makes it cheaper on your end is what you should probably go for. If you're just looking to have you car fixed right and no worries just put a 2.0 shortblock in. If you want to maybe do some work to the car in the future, as far as modding is concerned, I'd go with the 2.5 shortblock seeing it is a stronger bottom end, and you get the .5 L displacement increase Of course you should have the car tuned if you take the 2.5 route, but the car will start and drive fairly normal without a tune.

Hope some of this helps you get back on the road faster man.

Last edited by HybridBoxer; 03-10-2009 at 11:50 AM.
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Old 03-10-2009, 12:02 PM   #21
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Factory spec is no more than a 7psi difference from the top cyl number to the lowest, so you already need either a new block or new pistons or a combination.

The clearance issue is either a rod or the crank, or a bearing, or both. At a minimum, its a bearing. But its possible that the bad bearing is coming from a worn crank or stretched rod.

Not all knock is audible, and even knock you cant here can be severe.

At this point it doesnt make any financial sense to keep messing with the block, just get a new shortblock, be it brand new, or new to you.

However, if you get the block out and find that the rods are ok, the crank is ok and you just need bearings, then here is another option


Buy new rod and crank bearings. Buy oversized pistons, have the block machined for the new pistons, not honed, I mean bored out to fit a larger (slightly, I am talking like the .020 oversize) piston and have a perfect short block. But by the time you pay for the labor and machine work as well as parts, you may be better off buying a new short block anyway.

In any case, that motor is gone in a big way. I do agree that you need to find a new mechanic as well.
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Old 03-10-2009, 12:12 PM   #22
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Everyone seems big on getting a new shortblock. I was quoted an installation cost of 2.5 grand (vs. 1 grand for installing a used assembled engine that I could get for 3 grand). A new shortblock is about 2 grand. I don't want to mess with a used one because a warranty is really important with all the money I'm spending. It seems that an engine swap would be much more economical and a safer bet. Am I missing something?
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Old 03-10-2009, 12:22 PM   #23
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if this was answered already....sorry....

but did you swapped injectors locations? if so did the misfire follow the injector?

i ask this because i had a misfire on my car too.....swapped, it followed. cleaned out the injector cleaner, never had a problem again.......
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Old 03-10-2009, 12:24 PM   #24
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If you replace the entire engine I would make sure you get your old engine back. Unless if they offer you some sort of core discount or something. You could probably get some money back on selling your old engine parts, I mean it's worth a shot right?

And you said a warranty is really important. What sort of warranty will you have by buying a used engine versus installing new shortblock?

And please don't tell me YOUR mechanic will be doing the install.I would trust the subaru tech over this guy.
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Old 03-10-2009, 12:53 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HybridBoxer View Post
If you replace the entire engine I would make sure you get your old engine back. Unless if they offer you some sort of core discount or something. You could probably get some money back on selling your old engine parts, I mean it's worth a shot right?

And you said a warranty is really important. What sort of warranty will you have by buying a used engine versus installing new shortblock?

And please don't tell me YOUR mechanic will be doing the install.I would trust the subaru tech over this guy.
Well, my short block is damaged, but I was going to see what I could get for the heads, which should be in great shape. Would be happy to sell for pennies on the dollar, as I don't have the time or know-how to tinker with selling individual parts. Please PM me if anyone wants my engine.

As for the warranty, I would have a 6 month warranty on the engine, and a 2 yr warranty on the labor from my mechanic. If I just get a short block (which again, would be MORE expensive with labor than a full engine swap) there could still potentially could be some unforseen issues with the heads or something else.

I know my mechanics will do a thorough job with the engine swap, and they know I'll be coming back to them if anything goes wrong. Since this mess started they've taken a loss on a lot of the work by not charging me for: 15+ hrs labor, cleaning fuel injectors and new spark plugs, switching engine coils, and sending the car to subaru for further diagnostic work.

I've also consulted with a former mechanic, who stated that hindsight is 20/20, but the path they took (including the misdiagnosis and wasting money on cylinder head remachining) was reasonable at the time.
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