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Old 08-05-2019, 08:50 AM   #326
smoky
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I got the Johnson CM90 pump. Pretty kick ass pump. I have probably around 40 feet of 3/4 hoses in the car and it flows 6gpm. It seems to consume around 7-8 amps when car is running at 13.8V.
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Old 08-20-2019, 02:37 PM   #327
pcampbell
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Can anyone tell me what adapter you are using for a type 14 to get onto the TB? The TB is 2.8" OD and the AWIC is 3" OD so I guess we'd need a very short 3" to 2.75" coupler... the shorter the better because length is what is going to make the type 14 hit the firewall, or not. Hoping we could fit the 2.75 coupler on the 2.8" Throttle body.

https://www.ebay.com/i/261697636972?...iABEgKlzPD_BwE maybe???

I am curious how big of a difference eliminating "intake" restrictions will make. My current type 13 AWIC restricts at 2.5" OD while my SC outlet and Throttle body are both 2.75" OD.

Last edited by pcampbell; 08-20-2019 at 03:06 PM.
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Old 01-01-2021, 10:53 AM   #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoky View Post
I got the Johnson CM90 pump. Pretty kick ass pump. I have probably around 40 feet of 3/4 hoses in the car and it flows 6gpm. It seems to consume around 7-8 amps when car is running at 13.8V.

I am wondering how much the pump size affects IATs. I have the regular Bosch pump which people seem to say is 5.28 GPM. There is a pump called Craig Davies 9040 that flows almost 2x as much.

Your Johnson CM90 says way more than 6gpm - is 6gpm what you actually measured?

Johnson CM90 says 17 GPM - it says magnetically driven ball bearing but not brushless.
https://www.hodgesmarine.com/joh10-2...172gpm--1.html

Craig davies says 9.7gpm and is brushless
https://www.jegs.com/i/Davies-Craig/...-9040/10002/-1

Both around $200. By the specs, one would think the Johnson flows more. Is more == better?

Johnson specs:
https://www.pumpvendor.com/media/joh...7-1_series.pdf


My setup is Type 13 intercooler
Frozen boost type 118 radiator which is pretty big but I only have so much of it exposed to air unfortunately. I've already hacked up the bump cover to get about 15% more radiator exposure.



Bosch pump.
I am seeing 100F IATs after a max boost pull, which is probably a 100F drop. Note, vehicle speeds are pretty slow in this scenario, I imagine faster speed would cool better. I'm willing to spend $200 on a better pump if it means lower IATs.

Last edited by pcampbell; 01-01-2021 at 11:24 AM.
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Old 01-01-2021, 01:47 PM   #329
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It is possible I might fit one of the larger ď600hpĒ straight through square style units. Iím not positive.
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Old 01-01-2021, 02:44 PM   #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcampbell View Post
Your Johnson CM90 says way more than 6gpm - is 6gpm what you actually measured?

Yes 6-7 gpm is what I measured filling some container at the end of the loop, there is a few smaller fitting in the loop, so I'm probably more around 0.5 inch hose size equivalent flow. The 1.5 inch should flow 2-3x more than the 0.75 inch version which I'll be trying over winter with 1 inch hoses, should increase flow a lot, expecting to double it.


Brushless is coming slowly, my feeling is the Johnson 1.5 is still flowing more for now.



Your intercooler will heatsoak a bit when doing lapping and will a bit more if doing autocross base on my experience. More flow will help get the intercooler to the water temp faster. Your IAT on 1 pull should be the same with more flow, it's your IAT after many fast pace pull that will change.
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Old 01-01-2021, 03:10 PM   #331
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Default The air/water intercooler thead

Cool - I am leaning towards trying the Johnson pump if I can make it fit. Looks like itís a bit larger than the Bosch. It is a street car but I would like to try it on the drag strip eventually.

Last edited by pcampbell; 01-01-2021 at 03:25 PM.
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Old 01-02-2021, 03:48 AM   #332
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@pcampbell: First of all, I'd try to fit a type 14 Charge Cooler. That fitted just fine in my Forester SG.
Do you have a reservoir of some kind? Could you measure your water temperature anywhere?
E.g. If your water temperature after the charge cooler stays more or less constant during WOT but your IAT are increasing significantly may indicate a too small charge cooler (or too less flow).
I decided for myself that I don't want to face the latter one and that's why I'm using a c
Pierburg CWA50 water pump which is actuated by my fog light switch. I have a reservoir after the charge cooler and my temps are +- 2 Kelvin identical to the measured IAT, measured directly at the endtank of the charge cooler.
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Old 01-02-2021, 06:54 PM   #333
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Granted intercoolers don't have high liquid pressure drops, but the max head on the Davies Craig is ~12psi, and the Johnson pump is losing a lot of flow at .4bar (6 psi). The Johnson pump is a brushed motor as well. You do want the highest flow rate possible, but you need to consider the "dyno curve" of the water pumps to estimate how much flow you will get when you put them under load of the intercoolers, tubing runs and fittings.
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Old 01-02-2021, 07:51 PM   #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voodoo Rufus View Post
Granted intercoolers don't have high liquid pressure drops, but the max head on the Davies Craig is ~12psi, and the Johnson pump is losing a lot of flow at .4bar (6 psi). The Johnson pump is a brushed motor as well. You do want the highest flow rate possible, but you need to consider the "dyno curve" of the water pumps to estimate how much flow you will get when you put them under load of the intercoolers, tubing runs and fittings.

Thanks, does the Davies Craig actually flow more under pressure? I'm not sure how to make an apple to apples comparison...
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Old 01-03-2021, 07:53 PM   #335
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Here are their performance charts from the manufacturer:
https://daviescraig.com.au/electric-booster-pumps

The EBP40 should do just fine. Otherwise you'd be stepping up to a EWP80. It flows more but has less static pressure. Plus having to use flanged connections instead of hose barbs could be annoying.

The Bosch Cobra pump here ( http://www.frozenboost.com/liquid-ai...02-p-1001.html ) looks to have far less static pressure and zero pressure flow rate to the EBP40, and it's an OEM class product.

If I were designing from scratch I'd go with the EBP40.
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Old 04-19-2021, 06:47 PM   #336
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Looking for some ideas for cooler IATs! Do you think it'd be worth replacing the Bosch with the EBP40?

I see upwards of 40F over ambient on a WOT run to redline (for example 100F on a 60F degree day)., granted that is at relatively low speed (say, up to 60mph).

I have a type 13 exchanger which is pretty small but I don't know if I can fit anything bigger. I don't think the type 14 fits behind an NA intake manifold. I have a type 118 radiator which is pretty big and have cut the bumper cover to get more airflow to it although only about half of it is in the wind.

Finally, I do have a lot of 90 degree turns in the water system.... not really sure I can do much about those other than smooth some out by replacing plastic elbows with silicon elbows.

Crappy picture but you get the idea:
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Old 04-20-2021, 09:24 AM   #337
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What turbo are you running with what boost pressure?

To be able to exactly answer your question if it ever would come up at my setup, I installed a temperature gauge for the water after the charge cooler.
If the water temp stays constant, but IAT are raising may indicate that the charge cooler is too small. But I'd definitely say what ever Turbo you're running, if you have upgraded your manifold, the type 13 will be too small.
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Old 04-20-2021, 10:42 AM   #338
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Ideally I think you would have a temperature gauge before and after the intercooler before the intake manifold. That will tell you if it's still removing heat from the intake air. The water temp would be slower to rise because of its heat capacity, but eventually it would under sustained boost running.
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Old 05-01-2021, 05:55 AM   #339
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Yeah I guess pre IC post Compressor would be nice. Iíll try to see if I can figure something out. I have lots of unused o2 sensor circuits if I can figure out how to log to them.
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Old 05-03-2021, 10:36 AM   #340
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Here's a common dual temp gauge. It comes from the small aircraft industry. Other aftermarket auto parts distributors have rebranded it as well.

https://www.davtron.com/product-detail.php?M307FD-CD-10
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Old 07-24-2021, 06:55 PM   #341
pcampbell
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Just looking at the Davies Craig pump again.
Can someone check my analysis of these 2 different graphs?

Supposing we have 5 psi of head pressure (Wild guessing there so obviously it is a variable...) then the EBP40 will flow ~25 l/minute or 1500 lph.

https://daviescraig.com.au/electric-booster-pumps
http://www.siliconeintakes.com/image...0392022002.pdf

The Bosch will flow 1000 lph at ~350 hectopascal which is 5psi. So at 5 psi the Davies Craig will flow 50% more? Am I looking at this correctly?

At ~6.5 psi the Bosch flows ~600 lph while the Davies Craig flows ~1320 lph? Here it flows 2x than the Bosch?

So the DC will really outflow the Bosch at higher pressures if I am looking at this right. Any way to measure or guess the head pressure? I know I have a LOT!!!! of 90 degree elbows unfortunately.

By the way I'm also working on logging pre-intercooler IAT with this device
https://www.fuelairspark.com/amfile/...FkyFg2HHqXgVto

I believe I can log directly to an 05+ ECU's rear O2 sensor circuit.

And finally, changing out a couple of double 90s for formed hoses.

Last edited by pcampbell; 07-24-2021 at 07:03 PM.
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Old 07-26-2021, 09:37 AM   #342
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I now have changed my setup to 1 inch all over the place and I have dual radiator setup for cooling. Like I said I have probably 40 feet of hose in my setup and few 90 degrees as well and the pressure is around 3-4 psi. It was the same pressure with the 3/4 hoses. I get a bit more flow with 1 inch, but not much more, maybe 7-8 when I measure it (time it takes to fill a gallon at the end of the setup).

1 rad on the trunk where the wings is and 1 rad in the car with electric fans. Trunk cools while driving, inside between runs. A bit more complexity than I would like but it works really well.

If your temp goes up while you are doing a pull faster than your water temp it means your intercooler is heatsoaking and you need more flow. That was 1 issue with my previous setup, using the type 26, which has poor water flow. I added a second smaller water intake and water exist on both side and the results are pretty amazing. Flat IAT over a 1 min. autocross run. Here is the graph
https://img.nasioc.com/image/uFGJn


A few pictures of the setup:
https://img.nasioc.com/image/uFr1t
https://img.nasioc.com/image/uFIG8
https://img.nasioc.com/image/uFyQg
https://img.nasioc.com/image/uF3LA

Last edited by smoky; 07-26-2021 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 07-27-2021, 11:48 AM   #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcampbell View Post
Just looking at the Davies Craig pump again.
Can someone check my analysis of these 2 different graphs?

Supposing we have 5 psi of head pressure (Wild guessing there so obviously it is a variable...) then the EBP40 will flow ~25 l/minute or 1500 lph.

https://daviescraig.com.au/electric-booster-pumps
http://www.siliconeintakes.com/image...0392022002.pdf

The Bosch will flow 1000 lph at ~350 hectopascal which is 5psi. So at 5 psi the Davies Craig will flow 50% more? Am I looking at this correctly?

At ~6.5 psi the Bosch flows ~600 lph while the Davies Craig flows ~1320 lph? Here it flows 2x than the Bosch?

So the DC will really outflow the Bosch at higher pressures if I am looking at this right. Any way to measure or guess the head pressure? I know I have a LOT!!!! of 90 degree elbows unfortunately.

By the way I'm also working on logging pre-intercooler IAT with this device
https://www.fuelairspark.com/amfile/...FkyFg2HHqXgVto

I believe I can log directly to an 05+ ECU's rear O2 sensor circuit.

And finally, changing out a couple of double 90s for formed hoses.
Under a fixed pressure (delta P) your math is correct.

If you wanted to measure the pressure in the system, ideally you would have a pressure sensor on the outlet of the pump and reference it to the intake. Otherwise you could just reference to atmosphere for a decent idea of what's going on.
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Old 08-11-2021, 01:46 AM   #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voodoo Rufus View Post
Under a fixed pressure (delta P) your math is correct.

If you wanted to measure the pressure in the system, ideally you would have a pressure sensor on the outlet of the pump and reference it to the intake. Otherwise you could just reference to atmosphere for a decent idea of what's going on.
+1 This is correct.
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Old 08-14-2021, 10:40 AM   #345
tmp042
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Default W2A Intercooler Setup (SH Forester)

I thought I might share my W2A setup on my build for my 09 Forester. The overall goal of this three year project is a daily street car which will spend most of its life in slow moving traffic. The setup is matched to a Blouch 1.5 (8cm) with the compressor housing rotated for a very short intercooler piping.
The intercooler and heat exchanger is by Plazmaman with dual Spal fans to assist with the minimal air flow in slow traffic. I have made a rear diff mounted VSS which will trigger the fans once the vehicle slows below 20kmph. I have IAT sensors on the inlet and outlet of the intercooler as well as temperature sensors on the inlet/outlet of the heat exchanger. In the coolant housing I also have a optic water sensor in case it ever develops a leak. Everything will be monitored/controlled via the Arduino Mega.
I've mounted the tried and tested Bosch water pump to my DIY reservoir using a fuel pump mount (perfect fit). I made a heavy duty bracket which bolts the reservoir to the chassis using existing holes.
The heat exchanger is mounted using all existing holes using another DIY aluminium bracket. The mdf mock up brackets are shown in the images below.




















Last edited by tmp042; 08-24-2021 at 06:28 AM.
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Old 08-18-2021, 08:41 AM   #346
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Default Water Spray Tank

This is my W2A intercooler (heat exchanger) water spray reservoir project. Includes a low water sender unit (housed within the baffled pickup section), fuel tank breather valve and RCM oil sump trapdoors. A horrific overkill but I thoroughly enjoyed designing and fabricating it. The three sections were waterjet cut and I then used rollers to shape the side wall.
The centre of the base is recessed for the XL wing nut retaining the spare wheel. The carry handles are also the restraint system which will be connected to quick release buckles.

The pump is located at the base of the rear seats (can be seen in the first photo) and draws the fluid up out of the inspection hatch.
Being baffled there is no need to drive around with it always full, though come to our sweltering summers I donít have to worry about it emptying too quickly.
If one day I go a different route, I could easily use it to carry drinking water.





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Old 08-21-2021, 08:17 PM   #347
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I love the various types of fabrication we are able to use these days. laser cut wood supports, cant beat that material cost!

Nice fab work, I'd love to have those skills.
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Old 08-22-2021, 12:30 AM   #348
tmp042
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stompinstu View Post
I love the various types of fabrication we are able to use these days. laser cut wood supports, cant beat that material cost!

Nice fab work, I'd love to have those skills.
Cheers, though I still start of most projects with a pen, cardboard and scissors. Roughly cut to shape, make a mess, trace the mess and repeat, then scan the outline on the home printer/scanner, import into CorelDraw and trace by hand until I have a drawing.
The welder I use still has most customers drop of large cardboard creations such as fuel tanks, intercoolers, coolant reservoirs etc which he then turns into aluminium. All my original projects were done only with CAD Binky style (Cardboard Assisted Designs)
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Old 09-07-2021, 03:58 PM   #349
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Digging the fab and glad to see baffles and traps in there too.
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