TSB wwp-99 and my car

[poison]

my car overheated a couple weeks ago. Took it to my mechanic, and the gasket was blown, radiator too.

I had received the TSB, and added the stop-leak since. My mechanic asked me what the brown gunk was in the radiator, if someone had added something to the fluid, and I told him I had added the stop-leak based on the TSB. He rolled his eyes, but didn't say anything.

Anyway, it cost me $2500 to do the heads, radiator, timing belt, etc. Now I just saw that some people have gotten SOA to pay for head repairs because of the head gasket/coolant issue.

What do you guys think? I'm definitely an affected car, but do you think they'll go for a reimbursement? I'm pissed, the head gasket shouldn't need conditioner, nor should the gasket and radiator blow at 90K.

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[Mavrik]

Well the TSB WWP-99 requires SOA additive which is not a brown gunk. Did you buy and add the stop leak from a Subaru dealership?

Plus the WWP-99 is a recall, extended to certain subaru model years only and has to be performed at a dealership to be reigstered for the extended coverage. Do you know for a fact the WWP-99 applies to your vehicle? And yes if the recall was done but the fluid was flushed and no SOA additive put back in, or something else put in. SOA can say no on the repairs.

So... we need details.

[akaGeneyus]

i work at a subaru dealer and the wwp-99 does not apply to turbocharged engines (not sure what kind of car you have). even still instead of placing your own stop leak in there, you should have taken it to the dealer to check for any recalls or technical service bulletins to address the issue. although your car isnt involved with the wwp-99 subaru may have repaired it for little or no cost to you on a good-faith bases. its all case dependent. i doubt they will do anything now that it been repaired outside of a subaru facility and there was stop leak in the coolant

also recalls and tsb have to be addressed the dealer. you cannot do your own repairs and expect it to be warranteed. and as far as gaskets and radiators if youve never had the coolant flushed or performed regular servicing on the car it is possible that can be a result. im not saying that you havent but lack of maintenance, heat and time are the 3 killers of parts on a car in that order!

[poison]

Wirelessly posted (SAMSUNG-SGH-T629/T629UVFG8 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 NetFront/3.2)

ah, whoa there. I maintain my car religiously. The stop leak is what that tsb was about, adding 'coolant conditioner' to the fluid to cover up their faulty design. I only added it because they required it, as per the tsb from 2004. I had the repair done because it is at 90k, and i had no idea the 2004 tsb could be the cause, or that it extended the warranty to 100k, so obviously i took it to my mechanic to save money, instead of paying stealership prices for the repair. If i had known about the tsb extending the warranty, of course i would have gone to a dealer, but i posted about the gasket the day it happened, and no one mentioned the tsb. I only saw that recently.

[munkis]

Recall, not TSB they are two different things.

Did you buy Subaru Coolant Conditioner from a Subaru Dealer or did you go to the auto parts store and buy stop-leak?

The Recall covered EXTERNAL head gasket leaks. If you had an internal leak, this would not have been covered by the recall. Has your car ever been to a Subaru dealer for maintanence? 90k miles, you have to take ownership of the car at some point.


How long have you owned the car? Since new? If so if your car was involved in the recall you would have recieved a letter? Did you register your car on mysubaru.com, they would also send you emails reminding you about the recall.

Did you look on NASIOC, that recall has countless threads posted.

This is what happens when your take your vehicle to an independent who donesnt know about Subaru's or their common issues.

[Mavrik]

I don't think you addressed my question of if you used SOA's stop leak or another brand. It has to be SOA and THEY have to be the one putting it in so they can register that with SOA. And they only do that if your VIN has the WWP-99 applied to it.

PM me the last 8 of your VIN and I can run it on SOA net (we dealer guys have this access) and we can see if it applies to you.

[poison]

Originally Posted by munkis

Recall, not TSB they are two different things.

Did you buy Subaru Coolant Conditioner from a Subaru Dealer or did you go to the auto parts store and buy stop-leak?

Conditioner from the dealer at each change.

The Recall covered EXTERNAL head gasket leaks. If you had an internal leak, this would not have been covered by the recall. Has your car ever been to a Subaru dealer for maintanence? 90k miles, you have to take ownership of the car at some point.

I'll have to look at the bill from my mechanic to see if it was external. No, I don't do maintainance at the dealer. Santa Monica Subaru is known to be horrible, and they closed a couple months ago, leaving the closest dealerships far away. Again, if I had known this was because of the recall, of course I would've towed it to a dealer. Understand, I was on the road, it overheated like hell, and I was unemployed. I don't have time or money to archive dive to look for an obscure TSB or recall; I needed an answer ON THE SPOT, as I was far from home and needed it fixed ASAP. Subaru cannot mandate where maintainance is done, and I believe it's illegal to turn me down because I didn't go to a dealer.

Take ownership of the car? No, Subaru should 'take ownership' of their mistakes. First, they ****ed with me over 6 visits about my clutch shudder, which was a known issue, then capitulated when I wouldn't go away; now, they engineer a problem head gasket/head/coolant compatibility issue, and give me a hard time because I didn't know to take it to my non-existant dealer for repair.

I maintain it better than Santa Monica Subaru ever would have.

How long have you owned the car? Since new? If so if your car was involved in the recall you would have recieved a letter? Did you register your car on mysubaru.com, they would also send you emails reminding you about the recall.

No, I am the second owner, since 11k miles. I registered a long time ago, but once it became apparent I was going to keep it till it died, I stopped updating mysubaru.

Did you look on NASIOC, that recall has countless threads posted.

Again, I wasn't 100% sure what the problem was when it happened, I was far from home on my way to a job interview. So I had it towed to my trusted mechanic. He told me what it was, and I had a half day to decide what to do. I searched nasioc (for head gasket, not coolant conditioner, duh), and posted about it in two areas of the forum, but no one mentioned the recall. I gave the go-ahead to fix it.

This is what happens when your take your vehicle to an independent who donesnt know about Subaru's or their common issues.

Common issues? Again, the problem isn't who repaired it; the problem is Subaru designing a flaw in the car, then trying to squirm out of paying because their ****ty dealer didn't poke and prod it. Again, by law they cannot specify that 'X' MUST maintain the car, only that it MUST be maintained, and receipts must be produced.

[poison]

Originally Posted by Mavrik

I don't think you addressed my question of if you used SOA's stop leak or another brand. It has to be SOA and THEY have to be the one putting it in so they can register that with SOA. And they only do that if your VIN has the WWP-99 applied to it.

PM me the last 8 of your VIN and I can run it on SOA net (we dealer guys have this access) and we can see if it applies to you.

Subaru's Conditioner.

2G804743. Thanks, man.

[Mavrik]

well your good to June 2009 on the coverage or 100k. Which I think your under. You also have WVD-14 recall open on your.

Only guess is that they saw something in there that isn't Subaru. However external leaks with WWP-99 (which shows completed on subaru net) should have been covered. The brown gunk might have been their only reason. Shows either contaminated or poorly serviced coolant system.

$2500 sounds kinda high. Even with a timing belt, the average job should only need cost $1300-1700. What did they do to the heads?

If you haven't called SOA yet. I'd suggest it and see what they think. The dealership may not have even contacted them.

[RexyGirl]

I don't think that Subaru is going to help out on this one for a number of reasons.

1. The repairs were not made at a Subaru dealership with Subaru parts. SOmetimes this is not an issue, but major repairs like this seeking reimbursement should be done at a dealer. Subaru has no way to guarantee the repairs or parts and cannot assume they were even done correctly or if they were needed at all. (some independent shops sell you stuff you don't need..sad, but true)

2. You knew you had the WWP99, therefore it is your responsibilty to read the letter you were given, have the repair performed (which you said you did) and know that the warranty on the head gaskets is extended until 100K miles.

3. It's possible that the blown head gasket was a result of the radiator blowing and the engine over heating. This is not covered by the recall because it is resulting damage from the radiator. Again, Subaru has no way to know this.

4. Subaru conditioner is reddish in color and unless the cooling system was really dirty and lacked maintenance, it shouldn't be brown. The conditioner hardly changes the color of the coolant when the coolant is maintained properly.

You are correct in saying that Subaru cannot mandate where maintenance on your vehicle is performed, but when it comes to a major repair, possibly covered by the warranty extension, they do have a say. They cannot deny you coverage for oil changes or maintenances done elsewhere, but they can deny to pay for a repair they might have otherwised covered, because you had it done somewhere else. Also, building a good repor with the dealer goes a long way. I have seen Subaru cover head gaskets on vehicles with 120K miles....Why? because they are paying back a customer for being loyal.

Also, Subaru has taken responsibilty for this 'design flaw' and made amends to correct it. They cannot hold everyone by the hand and tell them that when their car overheats to take it to the dealer so they will cover it under warranty. That is the customer's responsibilty.

You say a radiator shouldn't blow at 90K miles...I have seen some blow alot sooner. A radiator can blow out from something coming up in the road and putting a hole in it. 90K miles is not too early for a radiator to go out.

If you really want Subaru to assist with the repairs, be prepared to have the maintenance records for the cooling system with the conditioner added handy to fax to them. Without them you don't have a chance.

[akaGeneyus]

^^spoken like a true subaru service advisor^^
which dealer you work @?

[poison]

Originally Posted by RexyGirl

I don't think that Subaru is going to help out on this one for a number of reasons.

1. The repairs were not made at a Subaru dealership with Subaru parts. SOmetimes this is not an issue, but major repairs like this seeking reimbursement should be done at a dealer. Subaru has no way to guarantee the repairs or parts and cannot assume they were even done correctly or if they were needed at all. (some independent shops sell you stuff you don't need..sad, but true)

I don't even have a dealer by my house, Santa Monica Subaru closed. Santa MOnica Subaru was the worst dealer on the planet, and if you think dealers are above selling you something you don't need... My family has been going to my mechanic for YEARS. I KNOW he's honest, it's been proven time and again, unlike most dealerships.

2. You knew you had the WWP99, therefore it is your responsibilty to read the letter you were given, have the repair performed (which you said you did) and know that the warranty on the head gaskets is extended until 100K miles.

Honestly, I don't remember how I heard about wwp99. SOA did not have my address of the last 9 years when I called this week, weird. Regardless, I do not recall ever hearing that the warranty was extended, only that there was a problem, and the fix.

3. It's possible that the blown head gasket was a result of the radiator blowing and the engine over heating. This is not covered by the recall because it is resulting damage from the radiator. Again, Subaru has no way to know this.

4. Subaru conditioner is reddish in color and unless the cooling system was really dirty and lacked maintenance, it shouldn't be brown. The conditioner hardly changes the color of the coolant when the coolant is maintained properly.

I do my radiator fluid every year (along with everything else for ease of remembrance), and I generally have it pumped at a jiffy lube type place, and bring in Subaru fluid for them to replace, along with the coolant conditioner. In fact I had just had it pumped two months ago.

The gunk was reddish brown. Brownish red. Whatever.

You are correct in saying that Subaru cannot mandate where maintenance on your vehicle is performed, but when it comes to a major repair, possibly covered by the warranty extension, they do have a say. They cannot deny you coverage for oil changes or maintenances done elsewhere, but they can deny to pay for a repair they might have otherwised covered, because you had it done somewhere else. Also, building a good repor with the dealer goes a long way. I have seen Subaru cover head gaskets on vehicles with 120K miles....Why? because they are paying back a customer for being loyal.

1) Geez, again, when my car broke down, I did not know what it was, so I had it towed to my mechanic. Even if I had known, Santa MOnica Subaru is closed.

2) Rep with the dealer? Sure, if I over pay by 100-300% or more for their ****ty service every time I need an oil change, they're going to fudge the paperwork. I'm not interested, nor should it be required, that I forge a relationship like that. Maybe I should buy the dealer recommended RE92's, too, for $180 a pop, because 'my suspension was designed around these tires, and my car won't perform at its optimum without them'. Yeah, right. Go search for 'Santa Monica Subaru' here, and you'll uderstand. Then drop the dealer leg-humping.

Also, Subaru has taken responsibilty for this 'design flaw' and made amends to correct it. They cannot hold everyone by the hand and tell them that when their car overheats to take it to the dealer so they will cover it under warranty. That is the customer's responsibilty.

The opposite. I maintain my car myself, and took care of the head problem. When I learned there was a recall, it seems that they should cover it. No hand-holding needed.

You say a radiator shouldn't blow at 90K miles...I have seen some blow alot sooner. A radiator can blow out from something coming up in the road and putting a hole in it. 90K miles is not too early for a radiator to go out.

If you really want Subaru to assist with the repairs, be prepared to have the maintenance records for the cooling system with the conditioner added handy to fax to them. Without them you don't have a chance.

On it. As for the radiator, I strongly suspect the failure has to do with THEIR coolant conditioner additive bull****, their band-aid solution to their head issue.

Between the clutch shudder debacle, the chronic CEL (SM Subaru: "don't worry about it unless it's blinking", "we didn't find anything", "it's normal", "Just drive it until it's blinking"), and now this, I'm getting sick of dealing with Subarus ****ty service.

[akaGeneyus]

OP what kind of car do you have??? 2.5rs, or impreza outback sport? i know it says 2002 impreza but can you clarify?

nvm....checked your post history you have a TS

[akaGeneyus]

OWNER NOTIFICATION LETTER

Subaru of America, Inc.
Subaru Plaza
P.O. Box 6000
Cherry Hill, NJ 08034-6000
www.subaru.com


Service Program WWP-99
February 2004
Dear Subaru Owner:
This letter is sent to you in the interest of continued customer satisfaction. As a precautionary measure, SUBARU OF AMERICA, INC. is recommending that a special conditioner be added to the engine cooling system of certain 1999 through 2002 model year Subaru vehicles equipped with 2.5 liter engines. This recommendation, which applies to your Subaru vehicle,
is made to prevent a possible external coolant leak at your vehicle's engine cylinder head gaskets.

BACKGROUND INFORMATION
Your vehicle's engine cooling system contains liquid coolant/anti-freeze. Over time, it is possible for small external coolant leaks to develop at the engine cylinder head gaskets. This is the result of normal expansion and contraction of engine components caused by the heating and cooling of these parts. To prevent coolant leaks from developing or to correct existing leaks at the head gaskets, a special Subaru Cooling System Conditioner should be added to your vehicle's cooling system.

WHAT YOU SHOULD DO
You should contact your Subaru Dealer as soon as possible for an appointment to have the Subaru Cooling System Conditioner added at no cost to you. The approximate time to perform this operation is 15 minutes. However, it may be necessary to leave your vehicle the full day of your scheduled appointment to allow your dealer flexibility in scheduling. Please present this letter to your Subaru Dealer at the time this repair procedure is performed.

FUTURE MAINTENANCE
In the future, it will be necessary to add Genuine Subaru Cooling System Conditioner to your vehicle's cooling system whenever the engine coolant is replaced. The recommended service interval for coolant replacement can be found in your Warranty and Maintenance Booklet under the heading "Schedule of Inspection and Maintenance Services". As a reminder, we have included an update page that should be added to your Owner's Manual and Warranty and Maintenance Booklet. We ask you to keep in mind that replacement of fluids (including Subaru Cooling System Conditioner) during inspection and maintenance services is not covered under warranty.
Bulletin Number:WWP-99; Date: 02/2004 Page 9

WARRANTY EXTENSION
If you have this Service Program repair performed promptly, Subaru will extend coverage under the Subaru Limited Warranty on your vehicle for cylinder head gasket external coolant leaks to a period of 8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever occurs first. Warranty coverage begins on the date the vehicle was delivered to the first retail purchaser. If the vehicle was
used as a demonstrator or company vehicle before being sold at retail, warranty coverage begins on the date the vehicle was first placed in such service. As a further condition for this extended warranty coverage to apply, you must have Genuine Subaru Cooling System Conditioner added to your vehicle at any subsequent cooling system services at the interval
specified in the Warranty and Maintenance Booklet under the heading "Schedule of Inspection and Maintenance Services". Resulting damage caused by a lack of maintenance or low coolant level will not be covered.

CHANGED YOUR ADDRESS OR SOLD YOUR SUBARU?
If you have moved or sold your vehicle, please complete the enclosed prepaid postcard and mail it to us.

IF YOU HAVE PREVIOUSLY PAID FOR A RELATED REPAIR
In the event that you have already paid an authorized Subaru Dealer for repairs to remedy an external coolant leak in an engine cylinder head gasket at less than 100,000 miles and your Subaru's cooling system has been properly maintained, you may be entitled to reimbursement for the head gasket replacement costs. Any reimbursement by Subaru will be based on our suggested retail parts pricing and suggested labor time multiplied by the dealer's hourly labor rate at the time of repair. Because Subaru Dealers are independently owned and operated, Subaru of America has no control over
the actual charges. The actual repair cost may be higher or lower than the rate used by Subaru of America to calculate reimbursement. If lower, reimbursement will be limited to the amount you actually paid.
Please send the original service repair order, which has complete information including the name of the repair facility, date of repair, mileage at the time of repair, complete vehicle identification number (17 digits), and your name, with correct mailing address and telephone number to the address listed below.

Subaru of America, Inc.
Customer Dealer Service Department
Attention: Service Program WWP-99
P.O. Box 6000
Cherry Hill, NJ 08034-6000

Please send original receipts only and retain a photocopy for your records. Please be assured that we will attempt to process your reimbursement request as quickly as possible, but may take up to 120 days for this process to be completed.

[akaGeneyus]

The highlighted areas above will be the defining factors in this case. if you recieved this letter (mailed in 2004) which sounds like you did the recall would need to have been addressed at that time. the place doing the repairs needed to be an authorized subaru dealer and it needed to be for external leaks only!! plus it states to update your address with subaru whenever you change so you can be sent TSBs and recalls. the car should have been taken into a dealer to have the conditioner placed into the system. thats listed under the what you should do section

hope this helps and BTW i did read up on that santa monica dealer
seems as if there was more bad than good coming from that place
GOOD LUCK!

[poison]

Yeah, thanks aka!

[RexyGirl]

Can you elaborate on this a little?

I do my radiator fluid every year (along with everything else for ease of remembrance), and I generally have it pumped at a jiffy lube type place, and bring in Subaru fluid for them to replace, along with the coolant conditioner. In fact I had just had it pumped two months ago.

The gunk was reddish brown. Brownish red. Whatever

What kind of machine did they use?

[RexyGirl]

I don't even have a dealer by my house, Santa Monica Subaru closed. Santa MOnica Subaru was the worst dealer on the planet, and if you think dealers are above selling you something you don't need... My family has been going to my mechanic for YEARS. I KNOW he's honest, it's been proven time and again, unlike most dealerships

http://www.subaru.com/servlet/Dealer...chString=90404

There are 6 dealerships within a 30 mile radius of Santa Monica Subaru....maybe more closer to you depending on your zip code

[Mavrik]

Funny how people never want to spend a dime at a dealership but want everything for free from them anyway. Not all dealerships are evil. I know and believe the one I work at isn't. We actually get a lot of "can you fix this?" issues other repair shops caused or could not solve.

I still think $2500 for headgasket work is to high. what exactly did your tech do again?

Oddly enough in todays market, most dealerships are average/the same prices as most shops. Sure some dealerships can't do a darn thing right but that doesn't mean they all are.

I could bet money confidently that if a SOA repair facility did your services, had your records and you brought this in to them to fix... it would have been for free.

[RexyGirl]

^^spoken like a true subaru service advisor^^
which dealer you work @?

I work for Mastro Subaru:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ghlight=MASTRO


http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ghlight=MASTRO

[poison]

Originally Posted by RexyGirl

Can you elaborate on this a little?



What kind of machine did they use?

Whatever kind Jiffy Lube uses. It doesn't drain, it sucks, or something.

[Hondaslayer]

Mavrik, compared to our area $2500 would be a little steep, but close. We are at $2200 on a SOHC including timing belt, accessory belts, tensioner and water pump. Being in So-Cal the labour rate is probably a bit north of us.

[poison]

Originally Posted by RexyGirl

http://www.subaru.com/servlet/Dealer...chString=90404

There are 6 dealerships within a 30 mile radius of Santa Monica Subaru....maybe more closer to you depending on your zip code

1) why would I take it somewhere I've never been, far from my house, and pay towing to do it, when I didn't know what the problem was, or that it might be covered? And go search the reviews on the service centers closest. 30 miles in LA = 90 miles anywhere else.

Yeah.

[poison]

Originally Posted by Mavrik

Funny how people never want to spend a dime at a dealership but want everything for free from them anyway.

I spent $13 ****ing grand on my car, hello?

Not all dealerships are evil. I know and believe the one I work at isn't. We actually get a lot of "can you fix this?" issues other repair shops caused or could not solve.

Fact: Santa MOnica Subaru, Irvine Subaru, TO Subaru, Van Nuys Subaru, all sucked, all closed, and new ones are currently opening. Gee, I wonder why. Again, go search reviews here.

I still think $2500 for headgasket work is to high. what exactly did your tech do again?

machined the heads, gaskets, timim=ng belt/tensioners, water pump.

Oddly enough in todays market, most dealerships are average/the same prices as most shops. Sure some dealerships can't do a darn thing right but that doesn't mean they all are.

I could bet money confidently that if a SOA repair facility did your services, had your records and you brought this in to them to fix... it would have been for free.

No, I would have paid for it in installment through inflated service prices and 'add-ons'.

[Mavrik]

Originally Posted by RexyGirl

^^spoken like a true subaru service advisor^^
which dealer you work @?

I work for Mastro Subaru:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ghlight=MASTRO


http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ghlight=MASTRO

I work as an advisor for Continental Subaru.

Originally Posted by hondaslayer

Mavrik, compared to our area $2500 would be a little steep, but close. We are at $2200 on a SOHC including timing belt, accessory belts, tensioner and water pump. Being in So-Cal the labour rate is probably a bit north of us.

Yeah we're at $95 an hour. That job books out at about 10 hours. Add $15 for shop fluid/fees and about $300 in parts. With the miles being 90k. we would advise a $89 timing belt, and depending on the condition of the tensioner, other belts and water pump... yeah approx $2000. But $2500 still seems high since aren't most shops suppose to be cheaper then the dealership?

Oh and to poison... buying a car from sales does not show loyalty at the service department.