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Old 06-08-2021, 12:09 PM   #51
Golconda
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Originally Posted by Norm Peterson View Post
You're assuming too much. Subaru's maximum-difference spec isn't a target to try to get close to. It's more like a "wear limit" that you'd really prefer to avoid getting close to.

Understand that as you drive, wheel camber varies from what the alignment shop sets it to (and toe varies slightly as a consequence of that). Front and rear suspensions don't vary camber with ride height at the same rates (called 'camber gain' if you're into vehicle dynamics). This affects wear rates across the tread, which depends on both your alignment shop's settings and your individual driving. Subaru only has loose control over your car's alignment (the acceptable range of camber settings is fairly loose), and neither Subaru nor I have any control over your driving. Is there much hard cornering in your driving? Much hard braking? None of either and mostly highway driving? The wear patterns are different for all three. Optimize tread wear for one of those at some risk of hurting the other two.
Those are all good points, but not really relevant unless those conditions arise during one time span of the life of the tires but not during another time span. E.g. if I am cornering and braking harder when I have tires A & B on the front but not so when tires A & B are on the rear, then your point is very valid. But if I am cornering and braking equally as hard when A & B are on the front as when they are on the rear, then it cancels out.


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Except that you have no guarantee that tire rotations at 7500 miles are going to be more likely to end up with each tire seeing 25% of its life at each corner of the car than you'd have by doing the rotations at 5000 mile intervals. If anything, and you get either more or less life out of your tires than initially expected (where you'd either be into a 4th or 5th rotation @ 7500 miles, or not make it to the third rotation respectively), a 5000 mile scheme would be more likely to come out closer to 'even'.
Agreed that we can't know exactly how many miles one will get out of their tires. But if I expect closer to 30K than to 20K, it would make sense to rotate at 7.5k instead of 5.0k to help ensure I can get each tire on each corner for 1/4 of the life. And at 5.0k as well as at 7.5, I can check the tires to see if they are at about 1/4 worn.


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Guess I'll have to take your word for it . . . I've always done my own tire rotations (sometimes at less than 500 mile intervals on the car that I drive pretty hard on real road courses (HPDE) as well as on the street). It's getting close to time to put the summer rubber back on the WRX, possibly this coming week. I'm 73, if that matters.
It may be the case that we are coming from different perspectives. If I were competing on road courses, maintenance and tire wear would be of utmost concern to me. But while I do like to drive hard (that is somewhat subjective) and on twisty roads, probably 96% to 98% of my driving is on ordinary roads under ordinary conditions.
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Old 06-08-2021, 01:21 PM   #52
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dont rotate your tires! you dont want to, so its that simple. lol
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Old 06-08-2021, 02:07 PM   #53
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dont rotate your tires! you dont want to, so its that simple. lol
If the tires are wearing evenly all around, then you are right. There wouldn't be anything gained by rotating tires. But this thread doesn't assume that. The question is whether it is better to rotate your tires every 5k miles as recommended by the manufacturer or to rotate them on a schedule so each tire is on each corner of the car 1/4 of the life of the tires.
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Old 06-08-2021, 06:07 PM   #54
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The easiest way to prevent the tires from rotating is to set the handbrake and place the car in 'P'.
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Old 06-08-2021, 07:16 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Golconda View Post
If the tires are wearing evenly all around, then you are right. There wouldn't be anything gained by rotating tires. But this thread doesn't assume that. The question is whether it is better to rotate your tires every 5k miles as recommended by the manufacturer or to rotate them on a schedule so each tire is on each corner of the car 1/4 of the life of the tires.
all this thread does is you tell everyone why you dont want to do it, so dont do it.
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Old 06-09-2021, 12:24 PM   #56
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all this thread does is you tell everyone why you dont want to do it, so dont do it.
Not true. What this thread tells me is that no one in here can come up with a good reason to rotate tires which will last 30,000 miles every 5,000 miles instead of every 7,500 miles.
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Old 06-09-2021, 11:33 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Golconda View Post
Not true. What this thread tells me is that no one in here can come up with a good reason to rotate tires which will last 30,000 miles every 5,000 miles instead of every 7,500 miles.
Or every 10,000 miles. You are correct. With good alignment and moderate driving you definitely don't need to rotate tires every 5K. On my truck it's probably more like every 11K, and I've had no uneven wear on the tires.
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Old 06-10-2021, 09:38 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Golconda View Post
Not true. What this thread tells me is that no one in here can come up with a good reason to rotate tires which will last 30,000 miles every 5,000 miles instead of every 7,500 miles.
yup, you have proven you know everything, so just do what you feel like. there has been plenty of reasons/evidence provided you, you just dont want to hear it.
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Old 06-10-2021, 01:05 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golconda View Post
Not true. What this thread tells me is that no one in here can come up with a good reason to rotate tires which will last 30,000 miles every 5,000 miles instead of every 7,500 miles.
After reading this thread, it sounds like, for you specifically, in your situation specifically, you want to rotate less often. I'm not sure you'll ever find enough evidence to say 100% of the time that a 5,000 mile rotation schedule is "needed". Most of your arguments seem to be around situations where, specifically, it isn't strictly necessary.

The rotation schedule is recommended because, on average, it covers the bases for the majority of people who drive like the majority of people do (the majority of people being those who don't check tread depth or wear patterns).

Much like an oil change schedule, it's a general recommendation. Technically, you only "need" to change your oil when it breaks down and the speed of that breakdown is heavily dependent on how much strain is on the engine (you have different loads on a track vs a commuter, for example). Could you get away with longer? possibly. Do some people need to do it more frequently? probably.

In fact, if you look around in other areas on this forum, you'll also find people who do oil changes much more frequently than the recommended time because they prefer the peace of mind that it provides to do an, ultimately, low cost bit of maintenance.

For most of the other people on this thread, it costs very little in time and effort to rotate them and gives us a measure of peace of mind. It sounds like you have a lot more difficulty with the tire rotation and that's not something anyone on this thread can address but yourself.

It can be argued how much benefit it gives until the cows come home, but if you go beyond the recommendations and encounter an issue, then you have nobody to blame but yourself. If you don't have issues, then there's nothing to complain about and you can feel proud of your gains, however much or little they are.

In the end, there's no 100% evidence that you HAVE to rotate at 5,000 miles in EVERY situation, which seems to be what you are looking for.
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Old 06-10-2021, 01:36 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Golconda View Post
Do you typically get somewhere between 22,000 to 24,000 miles out of your tires?
I have no idea and should've mentioned I stopped keeping track of the mileage since I don't drive the cars often anymore. And that's kind of the point.

I have summer and winter setups. I used to mark which were up front so I know to put them in the rear the next season but I stopped doing that. When it was time for the swap, I just measure the tread depth and throw the ones with more up front. Once they are beyond the minimum tread depth, I buy new.

To me, the concern should be more about tread depth difference than actual mileage before rotation or targeting a certain "mileage life" of your tires. For the latter, you just don't know the actual mileage before you have to buy new. So why not just make sure tread depth differences is within tolerance?

And hence why most in this thread is recommending closer to 5K than 7.5K. If rotating based on mileage, then doing it at 5K would be more on target in maintaining small tread depth differences than at 7.5K.
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Old 06-11-2021, 01:37 AM   #61
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yup, you have proven you know everything, so just do what you feel like. there has been plenty of reasons/evidence provided you, you just dont want to hear it.
I don't know everything. I am open to being shown I am wrong. But no one in here has come up with a good reason for tires which will last 25,000 or 30,000 miles, they should be rotated every 5,000 miles. True, if the delta between front and rear approaches 2/32", then perhaps the tires should be rotated more often. But we already did the math and with tires which go from 10/32" to 4/32", the front would have to wear at greater than 2 times the rear. And someone in here who is far more knowledgeable about cars than I am said if there were such a wear difference, that would be a sign of worse problems.
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Old 06-11-2021, 01:47 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by TheCodeMonk View Post
After reading this thread, it sounds like, for you specifically, in your situation specifically, you want to rotate less often. I'm not sure you'll ever find enough evidence to say 100% of the time that a 5,000 mile rotation schedule is "needed". Most of your arguments seem to be around situations where, specifically, it isn't strictly necessary.

The rotation schedule is recommended because, on average, it covers the bases for the majority of people who drive like the majority of people do (the majority of people being those who don't check tread depth or wear patterns).

Much like an oil change schedule, it's a general recommendation. Technically, you only "need" to change your oil when it breaks down and the speed of that breakdown is heavily dependent on how much strain is on the engine (you have different loads on a track vs a commuter, for example). Could you get away with longer? possibly. Do some people need to do it more frequently? probably.

In fact, if you look around in other areas on this forum, you'll also find people who do oil changes much more frequently than the recommended time because they prefer the peace of mind that it provides to do an, ultimately, low cost bit of maintenance.

For most of the other people on this thread, it costs very little in time and effort to rotate them and gives us a measure of peace of mind. It sounds like you have a lot more difficulty with the tire rotation and that's not something anyone on this thread can address but yourself.

It can be argued how much benefit it gives until the cows come home, but if you go beyond the recommendations and encounter an issue, then you have nobody to blame but yourself. If you don't have issues, then there's nothing to complain about and you can feel proud of your gains, however much or little they are.

In the end, there's no 100% evidence that you HAVE to rotate at 5,000 miles in EVERY situation, which seems to be what you are looking for.
The entire point is to set up a rotation schedule at a mile interval which is 1/4 or 1/8 of the approximate life of the tires to help ensure each tire is on each corner for 1/4 of the life of the tires. If that falls on 5,000, then I agree with their schedule. But that would mean an estimated tire life of around 20k or 40k miles. It makes more sense to start with the estimated amount of miles you'll get on the tires and divide by four or eight and do the rotations then rather than start with 5,000 and hope that you get each tire on each corner 1/4 of the life.
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Old 06-11-2021, 01:51 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by REX_WGN View Post
I have no idea and should've mentioned I stopped keeping track of the mileage since I don't drive the cars often anymore. And that's kind of the point.

I have summer and winter setups. I used to mark which were up front so I know to put them in the rear the next season but I stopped doing that. When it was time for the swap, I just measure the tread depth and throw the ones with more up front. Once they are beyond the minimum tread depth, I buy new.

To me, the concern should be more about tread depth difference than actual mileage before rotation or targeting a certain "mileage life" of your tires. For the latter, you just don't know the actual mileage before you have to buy new. So why not just make sure tread depth differences is within tolerance?

And hence why most in this thread is recommending closer to 5K than 7.5K. If rotating based on mileage, then doing it at 5K would be more on target in maintaining small tread depth differences than at 7.5K.
I go with 7.5k instead of 5k because I am assuming 30k life of the tires. That way each tire is on each corner 1/4 of the life. If you rotate the tires at 5k, then you end up with each tire in two corners 2/6 of the life and in the other two corners 1/6 of the life. If I am wrong, please explain how that arrangement is better than having each tire on each corner for 1/4 of the life?
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Old 06-11-2021, 10:50 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golconda View Post
I go with 7.5k instead of 5k because I am assuming 30k life of the tires. That way each tire is on each corner 1/4 of the life. If you rotate the tires at 5k, then you end up with each tire in two corners 2/6 of the life and in the other two corners 1/6 of the life. If I am wrong, please explain how that arrangement is better than having each tire on each corner for 1/4 of the life?
The math makes perfect sense but it depends on a few things. The most critical of which is that you will get 30K miles.

Your point is about tire life. My point is about tread depth difference. You'll rotate your tires to a hypothetical goal of 30K miles while I'll rotate my tires based on actual, measurable tread depth differences.

To each his own. Best way to make your case is with data. Keep us updated as you rotate every 7500 miles.
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Old 06-11-2021, 01:48 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Golconda View Post
I don't know everything. I am open to being shown I am wrong. But no one in here has come up with a good reason for tires which will last 25,000 or 30,000 miles, they should be rotated every 5,000 miles.
Not because we haven't tried. But that's been about as productive as talking to a post, and we're no closer to agreement than we were the first time I unsubscribed out of frustration.


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Old 06-12-2021, 01:00 PM   #66
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Three guys go to a bar

The bill is 30 bucks

Each guy gives the bartender 10 bucks

A few minutes later the bartender comes back and said she screwed up and the bill is only 25 bucks

She has 5 one dollar bills in her hand

The three guys say to the bartender give us each one dollar back and you keep the other two

This means they originally gave ten each and got one back so they spent nine each

Nine times three is 27

Plus the two bucks the bartender kept is 29

How did we start with 30 bucks ?
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Old 06-12-2021, 10:06 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by motorbykemike View Post
Three guys go to a bar

The bill is 30 bucks

Each guy gives the bartender 10 bucks

A few minutes later the bartender comes back and said she screwed up and the bill is only 25 bucks

She has 5 one dollar bills in her hand

The three guys say to the bartender give us each one dollar back and you keep the other two

This means they originally gave ten each and got one back so they spent nine each

Nine times three is 27

Plus the two bucks the bartender kept is 29

How did we start with 30 bucks ?
Good one. *LOL*
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Old 06-13-2021, 02:06 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motorbykemike View Post
Three guys go to a bar

The bill is 30 bucks

Each guy gives the bartender 10 bucks

A few minutes later the bartender comes back and said she screwed up and the bill is only 25 bucks

She has 5 one dollar bills in her hand

The three guys say to the bartender give us each one dollar back and you keep the other two

This means they originally gave ten each and got one back so they spent nine each

Nine times three is 27

Plus the two bucks the bartender kept is 29

How did we start with 30 bucks ?
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Old 06-14-2021, 06:44 PM   #69
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In 18 years on this forum I can't remember a screwed up diff from uneven tires. Some towing issues, but not from tire wear. Does not mean it never happened. I imagine most people do some measure of rotation which is good enough. And maybe they get rid of the car before issues arise, but still don't hear about people buying used subies and having to fix diffs. Therefore, do whatever rotation you feel comfortable with.
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Old 06-17-2021, 05:09 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motorbykemike View Post
Three guys go to a bar

The bill is 30 bucks

Each guy gives the bartender 10 bucks

A few minutes later the bartender comes back and said she screwed up and the bill is only 25 bucks

She has 5 one dollar bills in her hand

The three guys say to the bartender give us each one dollar back and you keep the other two

This means they originally gave ten each and got one back so they spent nine each

Nine times three is 27

Plus the two bucks the bartender kept is 29

How did we start with 30 bucks ?
3 x 10 = 30 = 25 + 5 = 25 + 2 +1 + 1 + 1
3 x 9 = 27 = 25 (the bill) + 2 (the tip)

Very clever way of confusing what is where.

Krzy***347;
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