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Old 05-16-2011, 12:17 AM   #426
MartinSTi05
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Me thinks a wg canister with a stiffer spring/higher preload would cure what ails you.
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Old 05-16-2011, 12:40 AM   #427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinSTi05 View Post
Me thinks a wg canister with a stiffer spring/higher preload would cure what ails you.
I agree with that also. We tested this on an Evo 8 turbo'd sti and it worked well. We put a Forge 25 psi actuator on the turbo and it responded very well. We are still revising the DP for a number of reasons, but a stiffer wastegate and more preload do help.
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Old 05-16-2011, 12:46 AM   #428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by project_skyline View Post
I don't think you guys have a wastegate problem based on exhaust pressure.

2.4 guys have no problems running these with the internal wastegate. Your issue is some where else.
I'm not for certain, but I doubt many of the 2.4L guys try and run these on 18psi actuators. Keep in mind that "18psi" isn't a hard # for every application....it has to be extrapolated out for the system. That's why we have had to do so much testing on this setup; it's uncharted water...at least from a data standpoint.

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It has less to do with displacement and more to do with VE. Some engines such as e 4g63 will tend to run a more favorable ratio of intake manifold pressure to exhaust manifold pressure. Turbine/waste gate sizing can be manipulated to suit certain engines and their characteristics of intake/exhaust pressure ratio. These turbos are obviously better suited to the idosynchrasies of the 4g63.
Some of our more recent testing is along the lines of your comment. What's funny is that our 2.0L testing (stock evo disp.) showed very favorable results - less than a pound of boost variance from initial target to redline.
However, Slap the same setup on a 2.5L (same compression, same turbo, same everything) and, well, the picture that Moore posted above should sum up what has transpired since.
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Old 05-16-2011, 12:49 AM   #429
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You guys are spending a lot of time making this work why don't you work on putting on a variable vaine?
I put a 09 cummins variable vaine on a 93 cummins I drive daily it will do 40psi at 1700 rpm
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Old 05-16-2011, 01:02 AM   #430
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I would think egts play in on why they haven't chosen to do it...
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Old 05-16-2011, 09:59 AM   #431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shilohb View Post
You guys are spending a lot of time making this work why don't you work on putting on a variable vaine?
I put a 09 cummins variable vaine on a 93 cummins I drive daily it will do 40psi at 1700 rpm
The canbus controller on those is quite a PITA to make for yourself and stick into a Subaru. I know, another engineer and I have been poking at it as we get Holset prototypes for free and we both have Subies. However I know the Fleece unit it out there in th Cummins community but I'm not sure it's target seeking like you'd need on the much wider RPM range of a gas car.

Building in turbo (and engine) safety functions is something we need to focus on, as well as inputs for controller such as boost target, throttle, EGT, etc...a bit more advanced than the cruder Fleece (unless they've revised it).

Now my boss had said screw it for his personal toy (509 BBC with two HE551) as he made his own diaphram setup that simply uses boost pressure to control the disc.

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I would think egts play in on why they haven't chosen to do it...
True story, however on our looooong tubed Subarus, I don't think we'll have the temp issue quite as bad as some other cars may.
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Old 05-16-2011, 01:19 PM   #432
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I have wanted to see a shuttle launch since I was a toddler and today it finally happened. Its amazing how fast they go when they launch! We talked about driving to the space center but after hearing that they were expecting 500,000 people we decided not to go. Luckily some friends with a boat took us out on the water so we could get a really good view.

Here's a really crappy photo:

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Old 05-16-2011, 01:25 PM   #433
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kind of off topic a little but why the FP red over the FP Black
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Old 05-16-2011, 04:46 PM   #434
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The motor is high compression on street fuel plus meth. The compressor map of the black shows that its more at home in the 30+ PSI range while the RED likes the mid to upper 20s more.
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Old 05-16-2011, 05:49 PM   #435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
The canbus controller on those is quite a PITA to make for yourself and stick into a Subaru. I know, another engineer and I have been poking at it as we get Holset prototypes for free and we both have Subies. However I know the Fleece unit it out there in th Cummins community but I'm not sure it's target seeking like you'd need on the much wider RPM range of a gas car.

Building in turbo (and engine) safety functions is something we need to focus on, as well as inputs for controller such as boost target, throttle, EGT, etc...a bit more advanced than the cruder Fleece (unless they've revised it).

Now my boss had said screw it for his personal toy (509 BBC with two HE551) as he made his own diaphram setup that simply uses boost pressure to control the disc.



True story, however on our looooong tubed Subarus, I don't think we'll have the temp issue quite as bad as some other cars may.
my sentiments pretty much exactly. I was hell-bent on doing this (there are a few of them on Subarus, btw) but the over footprint of the decent turbos, reliability questions due to gas egt's, and lack of true controller solution, led me down a different path. it will be the hot setup soon....but not quite yet, imo.
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Old 05-16-2011, 10:26 PM   #436
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yeah, the biggest issue is having an actual canbus controller for it...that really needs to be tuned as part of your map. So now if you can use an Aux map on a standalone to send a voltage signal to tell the canbus what to do, you use it as your wastegate...or it can be handy with emissions testing
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Old 05-17-2011, 02:47 AM   #437
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What change did you(moore performance) make in the downpipe design?

When testing these setups what have you been using for boost control?
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Old 05-17-2011, 02:30 PM   #438
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
yeah, the biggest issue is having an actual canbus controller for it...that really needs to be tuned as part of your map. So now if you can use an Aux map on a standalone to send a voltage signal to tell the canbus what to do, you use it as your wastegate...or it can be handy with emissions testing
here here! Years ago, i contacted a reputable electronic solution company about can-bus controller goodness. There are feasible solutions for sure. Business/profitability wise....not so much atm. Plus, you're stuck with very few decent turbo options that can bolt-on and go. The other big problem is that most of the turbos readily available to the U.S. (save for the $7k units from the 997 porsche) are over turbined/under comrpessor'd, as they are meant with 6-plus liter motors with 20:1 plus compression. Guys have put bigger comp. wheels in there, but the base unit needs to drop down a frame size, imo, before a setup like this is an option for the general street/strip crowd.

That's why we are heavily r&ding the twin-scroll Evo stuff - turbos-both new and used-are in abundance in stock form, and are well matched to the 2.0L in oem configs (and excellent for 2.5L auto-x quick spool cars). Once you dip into off-the-shelf performance offerings...the number of bolt on options goes into the 30+ model range. Billet wheels, anti-surge covers, bigger exhaust wheels, titanium and ceramic wheels, ball bearing CHRA's, etc. etc. are some of the highlights of what has been done with the Evo8-9 footprint.

Quote:
Originally Posted by project_skyline View Post
What change did you(moore performance) make in the downpipe design?

When testing these setups what have you been using for boost control?
Most of the testing involves various ways of isolating the wastegate charge paths from the turbine wheel's flow path. Secondary testing involves wastegate spring and preload pressure.

Boost control has ranged from hybrid electro-mechanical to straight check valve to straight 3 port BCS.
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Old 05-17-2011, 03:41 PM   #439
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years ago I was thinking of VGT but dicking with evo twinscroll...seems we've flip flopped

Yeah, the current VGT's on the market are drag turbo's for us. The smaller units for economy box diesels are too small and we're stuck in the middle.
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Old 05-17-2011, 09:02 PM   #440
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shilohb View Post
You guys are spending a lot of time making this work why don't you work on putting on a variable vaine?
I put a 09 cummins variable vaine on a 93 cummins I drive daily it will do 40psi at 1700 rpm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinSTi05 View Post
I would think egts play in on why they haven't chosen to do it...
this makes me giggle.
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Old 05-17-2011, 11:04 PM   #441
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garagedefeat View Post
Most of the testing involves various ways of isolating the wastegate charge paths from the turbine wheel's flow path. Secondary testing involves wastegate spring and preload pressure.

Boost control has ranged from hybrid electro-mechanical to straight check valve to straight 3 port BCS.
Have you tested all wastegates on 2.5L by connecting the actuator directly to the intake manifold? You may be correct in assuming that none of the 2.4 guys have used the 18 psi actuator on their turbos. I may have to test the abilities of the stock actuator on my own friends 2.4.

Hopefully this summer I can get my hands on someone who wants to try this out I want to build a front mounted evo flanged header for a black. Like to see how it works out and see how things work on it.

Have you experimented with porting the hotsides? What diameter piping have you used for your header designs?
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Old 05-24-2011, 10:01 AM   #442
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I'll post the graph and vid later today, but switching to ewg's on my personal car running the Evo 6.5 RS tme turbo with a downsized 9cm hotside (smallest evo turbo available) rewarded us with great boost control and produced 388whp and 436wtq on the break in tune of my new motor on a Mustang Dyno. Were running very little timing (8* at peak tq and 15* up top), only 24psi, TMIC and E85 for fuel. Four or five other subaru's ran the same day on the same dyno so I can provide other data from those cars as well. As a simple comparison, most protuned, stock turbo sti's on 93 octane gas (with usual bolt on supporting mods) make around 260-280whp and 270-290wtq with 20-22psi on this Dyno. I'll post more info later today, but I wanted to update with info from our latest test.
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Old 05-24-2011, 08:12 PM   #443
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Quick update, I have a new tune date scheduled with Phil for June 24th. I haven't done anything with the car yet but I found out that except for the 24th Phil is booked up between now and mid August. I really didn't have that day available since I am booked on work trips and stuff all summer so I had to convince my wife to cancel our summer vacation to Colorado. I really hope things work out this time around because I think my wife will kill me otherwise.

That day will be here before I know it so I guess I better get moving!

Last edited by dexterous; 05-24-2011 at 08:55 PM.
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Old 05-24-2011, 10:53 PM   #444
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Drop the car off?
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Old 05-24-2011, 11:25 PM   #445
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I gave that some thought but I really don't want to do that. Phil's shop is 5.5 hours away and if anything went even slightly wrong it would be ten times worse if I wasn't there to deal with it.
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Old 05-25-2011, 02:13 AM   #446
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Some info from our recent EWG test using the smallest turbo....

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2186855
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Old 05-25-2011, 03:24 AM   #447
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I'm a noob, but could it be possible that Your Hydra system is cutting the boost by fail-safe trigger? Maybe a false positive is happening with the Hyrda, causing it to cut boost (you said it hit 26psi for a moment).

Just a thought.
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Old 05-25-2011, 09:58 AM   #448
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Originally Posted by SurfGuruJeff View Post
I'm a noob, but could it be possible that Your Hydra system is cutting the boost by fail-safe trigger? Maybe a false positive is happening with the Hyrda, causing it to cut boost (you said it hit 26psi for a moment).

Just a thought.
The Hydra doesn't actually control the boost.
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Old 05-28-2011, 12:55 AM   #449
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Well, all I will say is that I have talked to Ryan Moore and we have "a plan". I will post back in about two weeks with the details.
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Old 05-30-2011, 12:20 AM   #450
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Well, all I will say is that I have talked to Ryan Moore and we have "a plan". I will post back in about two weeks with the details.
A plan it is and were very excited to test this twin scroll setup with twin ewg's! That has proven to help boost control and spool up on my personal car and I think that's the way we must go with future setups. Looking forward to testing with the new gates!
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