Water/Methanol Injection FAQ - Page 4

bcblues · 11-14-2006, 12:56 AM

I have not tried to tune for a pure meth squirt, but I have heard that it is more difficult to hit target AFRs. With 50-50, I have found ot quite easy, except for the weirdness that I see once in a while when going from steady throttle stoich to acceleration, where I sometimes see a lean environment with one of my maps (and I can't figure out why).

BTW, this is a great thread, thanks for the input Hippy.

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testes1010 · 11-16-2006, 06:52 AM

I seen no mention of running HEET as a source of Methanol. I've been running 50/50 HEET/distilled water for over a yr now w/ excellent results. Its costs me ~$3 gallon for the mix. HEET is 99% pure methanol.

Jeremy

kkimbal3 · 11-17-2006, 06:56 PM

I've been using a mixture of 2 bottles of HEET per gallon of winter windshield fluid in my Mustang for a couple years. Works great. I just bought my Forester XT so I've been thinking of adding the injection kit as a first mod. Thinking of injected into the outlet plenum of the stock IC. Anyone try this location. I assume the housing is thick enough to get decent threads into it. anyone know?

testes1010 · 11-18-2006, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkimbal3

I just bought my Forester XT so I've been thinking of adding the injection kit as a first mod. Thinking of injected into the outlet plenum of the stock IC. Anyone try this location. I assume the housing is thick enough to get decent threads into it. anyone know?

I see no benefit of running injection as a first mod, at least w/o EM anyways. A TBE & uppipe along w/ EM is my recommendation. I use the location you suggested on a Hyperflow TMIC, other do as well.

Jeremy

Beeya · 11-20-2006, 06:34 PM

i agree, running WI or AI as a first mod would not be nearly as beneficial as EM.

Im about to get a stage 2 snow kit.

this is just my thoughts but H2O when heated above 212F breaks down to a gas form and also creats more Oxygen in the cylender while coolling at the same time. This could be a good reason that 100% water and 50/50 show little differance. Course IDK. but meby this could explain Hippys theories...

humara · 11-23-2006, 01:13 AM

another noob question here.
I've been considering more power (from standard stage 2 protuned wrx setup) via either a td05-16g or vf39. both of those solutions seem to increase lag a bit and sacrifice low end for top end. realistically that isn't going to suit my daily driving situation. now i've been reading many alc/meth/h2o injection threads and think this is a great way to go.

now for the question. most of the kits seem to be triggered by boost pressure, which i think is slightly not optimal. is there anyway to trigger injection based on throttle position AND boost pressure? example, cruising in 2nd gear at say 35mph and then decide to get on it. it takes a bit of rpm for the boost to hit high enough psi to trigger the meth, but if throttle position was used, then i could up timing sooner and get rid of any lagginess. am i on crack??

DonkeyPunch · 11-24-2006, 05:45 PM

No you are not on crack. There are other ways to trigger. Some company's use a MAF/MAP varible controller. Snow Performance has this alternative to boost pressure. They also have boost pressure varible controller. But, boost pressure trigger is the easiest way I can think of to trigger. It takes a lot of the guess work out. Plus the time when you need alky/meth is under boost with advanced timing, and higher boost. You car when tuned right should only need it when on boost. When cruising off throttle, or partial throttle in vacumm, or light boost <6 lbs you shouldn't need it. Your car will be tuned like normal under these engine loads. But once you hit a certain boost level and the alky/ system turns on your tuner should start to advance timing on your timing map as pressure increases. He will also start to take fuel away to make the AFR's right with the alky injection. You can look around at other manufactures and see if they use some sort of MAF system also, but boost is easy, and easy to tune for. You can also have a UTEC do it with the spare solenoid, but you said you we're going to pro-tune. I don't really recommend switching to UTEC because it can run a alky system. I want to dump my UTEC soon, and go ACCESS port.

DP

hippy · 11-25-2006, 07:59 PM

Yes you're on crack

. I just wanted to say that. Imo you will not notice much lagginess with either of the turbos you mentioned(especially the vf39). On top of that, most of the injection kits out are not high tech enough to do what you want optimally at low boost and rpms without sacrificing effectiveness uptop. Ie-You could end up getting what you want(the injection turning on at low boost and rpm), and either lose power from there being too much injection, or sacrifice an 15hp above 5000rpm to get 3hp below 3000rpm. What I'm trying to say is, to get what you want to work the way you want, it will take a lot more planning then figuring out how to turn the injection on when you want it. At the same time, why worry about the lagginess of your turbo b4 you see how laggy it is? You might not want to put the effort into fixing the problem once you find that it's not a problem?

peace

DonkeyPunch · 11-25-2006, 10:23 PM

Also IMO a VF39 isn't a laggy turbo. I have a VF22 with my tune on water injection, my spool is almost like driving a stock turbo WRX. An 18g wouldn't be much worse I don't think. Your engine can work way more efficient with WI, and provide more exhaust flow/combustion efficiency to spool the turbo.

DP

east milford wrx · 11-25-2006, 10:30 PM

I was tuned on 50/50 water and vp racing methanol.. im starting to run out of the meth. Ive hered about using HEET but i am skeptical about how well it will run. ive herd its 99% meth but that 1% may make a difference? Also im wondering if the vp meth has any other differences thent he HEET methanol.?

DonkeyPunch · 11-26-2006, 12:29 AM

I ran on heet when I first started running water meth. It works fine. Just make sure you get the HEET brand in the yellow bottle. Some of the generic companies don't use the same formula as heet. Don't use the red bottle. It has a different chemical.

DP

kkimbal3 · 12-31-2006, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by testes1010

I see no benefit of running injection as a first mod, at least w/o EM anyways. A TBE & uppipe along w/ EM is my recommendation. I use the location you suggested on a Hyperflow TMIC, other do as well.

Jeremy

I was mostly thinking of injecting first to prepare for better things to come.

I think I'm going to get a STI intercooler and install the injection nozzle at the same time. Seems like it would be easier to install the nozzle into metal than plastic.

bcblues · 01-01-2007, 11:48 AM

Yes, I think it would be far easier to install in metal. I also think that you should wait to begin using the system until you get EM so you can retune your fueling. You could always install the system and just not use it. Stock fueling is already rich. If you inject, it will be even richer, and probably cost you some HP.

Filthy Saabage · 02-02-2007, 03:44 PM

anywhere is it mentioned benefits or otherwise going 50/50 meth/alky vs. h20/alky??

Matth3w · 02-18-2007, 06:51 PM

Very nice information. Anyone do a picture by picture install of the SMC?

WRB05STi · 02-19-2007, 01:39 AM

Great thread here. The straight water thing is interesting, if a little impractical for those of us in the Great White North.

WRXRallyBlue · 02-19-2007, 03:08 AM

I like all the talk of theory but here are some real world results. See post #1225:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...934903&page=49

Strangely, pure water injection proved relatively nominal gains. Water/meth is where it's at.

modaddict · 02-19-2007, 03:26 AM

Here's my results. pump gas vs. water/meth.

50/50 water/meth...M1 from vp racing fuels.

my chart is also on the perrin website.

WRB05STi · 02-19-2007, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WRXRallyBlue

I like all the talk of theory but here are some real world results. See post #1225:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...934903&page=49

Strangely, pure water injection proved relatively nominal gains. Water/meth is where it's at.

They stated that they were not trying to max out the water tune. They also mentioned nothing about jetting the injection system for water only. Could there be more in there?

ka mano · 02-19-2007, 05:30 AM

Yes... it'd be good if Tim or Mick were to clarify here how much they pushed the H20-only tune on the dyno that day.

ka mano · 02-19-2007, 05:51 AM

Here are some comparisons from the 02-10-2007 tune on my car (mod list in post #2):

92 pump vs. 50% water / 50% meth

ka mano · 02-19-2007, 05:53 AM

Water only vs. 50/50

aps2fast4u · 02-19-2007, 11:20 AM

dumb question, but it has to be distilled water, correct??

El Supremo · 02-19-2007, 12:23 PM

I have a basic Coolingmist kit in my 2002 wrx wagon and distilled water supposedly has no minerals (calcium, lime deposits) that can clog-up the tiny injector/sprayers common to most kits. Distilled water is cheap and plentiful, 68 cents a gallon at Wal-mart. It's not worth running tap water considering the damage that can be done if the injectors clog-up. You might be able to run tap water in case of an emergency, but over the long haul it's a bad idea.

ka mano · 02-19-2007, 06:45 PM

I always use distilled water but my shop says the stuff from the tap is fine.

11-17-2006, 06:56 PM	#78
kkimbal3 Scooby Newbie Member#: 132469 Join Date: Nov 2006	Heet I've been using a mixture of 2 bottles of HEET per gallon of winter windshield fluid in my Mustang for a couple years. Works great. I just bought my Forester XT so I've been thinking of adding the injection kit as a first mod. Thinking of injected into the outlet plenum of the stock IC. Anyone try this location. I assume the housing is thick enough to get decent threads into it. anyone know?

11-23-2006, 01:13 AM	#81
humara Scooby Specialist Member#: 53289 Join Date: Jan 2004 Chapter/Region: SCIC Vehicle: 04 wrx waggin' wrb	another noob question here. I've been considering more power (from standard stage 2 protuned wrx setup) via either a td05-16g or vf39. both of those solutions seem to increase lag a bit and sacrifice low end for top end. realistically that isn't going to suit my daily driving situation. now i've been reading many alc/meth/h2o injection threads and think this is a great way to go. now for the question. most of the kits seem to be triggered by boost pressure, which i think is slightly not optimal. is there anyway to trigger injection based on throttle position AND boost pressure? example, cruising in 2nd gear at say 35mph and then decide to get on it. it takes a bit of rpm for the boost to hit high enough psi to trigger the meth, but if throttle position was used, then i could up timing sooner and get rid of any lagginess. am i on crack?? Last edited by humara; 11-23-2006 at 01:13 AM. Reason: ? mark

11-25-2006, 07:59 PM	#83
hippy Scooby Specialist Member#: 36528 Join Date: May 2003 Location: florida Vehicle: 2002 Impreza Wrx Silver	Yes you're on crack. I just wanted to say that. Imo you will not notice much lagginess with either of the turbos you mentioned(especially the vf39). On top of that, most of the injection kits out are not high tech enough to do what you want optimally at low boost and rpms without sacrificing effectiveness uptop. Ie-You could end up getting what you want(the injection turning on at low boost and rpm), and either lose power from there being too much injection, or sacrifice an 15hp above 5000rpm to get 3hp below 3000rpm. What I'm trying to say is, to get what you want to work the way you want, it will take a lot more planning then figuring out how to turn the injection on when you want it. At the same time, why worry about the lagginess of your turbo b4 you see how laggy it is? You might not want to put the effort into fixing the problem once you find that it's not a problem? peace Last edited by hippy; 11-25-2006 at 08:09 PM.

02-19-2007, 12:23 PM	#99
El Supremo Scooby Newbie Member#: 38388 Join Date: Jun 2003 Chapter/Region: NWIC	I have a basic Coolingmist kit in my 2002 wrx wagon and distilled water supposedly has no minerals (calcium, lime deposits) that can clog-up the tiny injector/sprayers common to most kits. Distilled water is cheap and plentiful, 68 cents a gallon at Wal-mart. It's not worth running tap water considering the damage that can be done if the injectors clog-up. You might be able to run tap water in case of an emergency, but over the long haul it's a bad idea. Last edited by El Supremo; 02-20-2007 at 04:28 PM.

02-19-2007, 06:45 PM	#100
ka mano Scooby Specialist Member#: 78022 Join Date: Dec 2004 Chapter/Region: NWIC Location: Seattle, Washington 05 WRB GGA Vehicle: PdxT built 2.5L 6sp 30R.82, 274/276, H2O+meth	I always use distilled water but my shop says the stuff from the tap is fine. Last edited by ka mano; 02-19-2007 at 07:27 PM.

11-14-2006, 12:56 AM	#76
bcblues Scooby Specialist Member#: 17256 Join Date: Apr 2002 Chapter/Region: South East Location: America's Outback Vehicle: 18 Outback on the road....	I have not tried to tune for a pure meth squirt, but I have heard that it is more difficult to hit target AFRs. With 50-50, I have found ot quite easy, except for the weirdness that I see once in a while when going from steady throttle stoich to acceleration, where I sometimes see a lean environment with one of my maps (and I can't figure out why). BTW, this is a great thread, thanks for the input Hippy. * Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

11-16-2006, 06:52 AM	#77
testes1010 Scooby Specialist Member#: 47145 Join Date: Nov 2003 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Henderson, KY Vehicle: 2012 Gas Saver	I seen no mention of running HEET as a source of Methanol. I've been running 50/50 HEET/distilled water for over a yr now w/ excellent results. Its costs me ~$3 gallon for the mix. HEET is 99% pure methanol. Jeremy

11-20-2006, 06:34 PM	#80
Beeya Scooby Newbie Member#: 107445 Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Salt Lake city Vehicle: 2004 STI Blue	i agree, running WI or AI as a first mod would not be nearly as beneficial as EM. Im about to get a stage 2 snow kit. this is just my thoughts but H2O when heated above 212F breaks down to a gas form and also creats more Oxygen in the cylender while coolling at the same time. This could be a good reason that 100% water and 50/50 show little differance. Course IDK. but meby this could explain Hippys theories...

11-24-2006, 05:45 PM	#82
DonkeyPunch Scooby Specialist Member#: 18987 Join Date: May 2002 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: Griswold, CT Vehicle: 2014 Forester Dark Grey Metallic	No you are not on crack. There are other ways to trigger. Some company's use a MAF/MAP varible controller. Snow Performance has this alternative to boost pressure. They also have boost pressure varible controller. But, boost pressure trigger is the easiest way I can think of to trigger. It takes a lot of the guess work out. Plus the time when you need alky/meth is under boost with advanced timing, and higher boost. You car when tuned right should only need it when on boost. When cruising off throttle, or partial throttle in vacumm, or light boost <6 lbs you shouldn't need it. Your car will be tuned like normal under these engine loads. But once you hit a certain boost level and the alky/ system turns on your tuner should start to advance timing on your timing map as pressure increases. He will also start to take fuel away to make the AFR's right with the alky injection. You can look around at other manufactures and see if they use some sort of MAF system also, but boost is easy, and easy to tune for. You can also have a UTEC do it with the spare solenoid, but you said you we're going to pro-tune. I don't really recommend switching to UTEC because it can run a alky system. I want to dump my UTEC soon, and go ACCESS port. DP

11-25-2006, 10:23 PM	#84
DonkeyPunch Scooby Specialist Member#: 18987 Join Date: May 2002 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: Griswold, CT Vehicle: 2014 Forester Dark Grey Metallic	Also IMO a VF39 isn't a laggy turbo. I have a VF22 with my tune on water injection, my spool is almost like driving a stock turbo WRX. An 18g wouldn't be much worse I don't think. Your engine can work way more efficient with WI, and provide more exhaust flow/combustion efficiency to spool the turbo. DP

11-25-2006, 10:30 PM	#85
east milford wrx Scooby Specialist Member#: 102301 Join Date: Dec 2005	I was tuned on 50/50 water and vp racing methanol.. im starting to run out of the meth. Ive hered about using HEET but i am skeptical about how well it will run. ive herd its 99% meth but that 1% may make a difference? Also im wondering if the vp meth has any other differences thent he HEET methanol.?

11-26-2006, 12:29 AM	#86
DonkeyPunch Scooby Specialist Member#: 18987 Join Date: May 2002 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: Griswold, CT Vehicle: 2014 Forester Dark Grey Metallic	I ran on heet when I first started running water meth. It works fine. Just make sure you get the HEET brand in the yellow bottle. Some of the generic companies don't use the same formula as heet. Don't use the red bottle. It has a different chemical. DP

01-01-2007, 11:48 AM	#88
bcblues Scooby Specialist Member#: 17256 Join Date: Apr 2002 Chapter/Region: South East Location: America's Outback Vehicle: 18 Outback on the road....	Yes, I think it would be far easier to install in metal. I also think that you should wait to begin using the system until you get EM so you can retune your fueling. You could always install the system and just not use it. Stock fueling is already rich. If you inject, it will be even richer, and probably cost you some HP.

02-02-2007, 03:44 PM	#89
Filthy Saabage Scooby Newbie Member#: 135134 Join Date: Dec 2006	anywhere is it mentioned benefits or otherwise going 50/50 meth/alky vs. h20/alky??

02-18-2007, 06:51 PM	#90
Matth3w Scooby Specialist Member#: 94597 Join Date: Aug 2005 Chapter/Region: TXIC Location: Fort Huachuca, AZ Vehicle: 2003 Corvette Z06 Black/Black	Very nice information. Anyone do a picture by picture install of the SMC?

02-19-2007, 01:39 AM	#91
WRB05STi Scooby Newbie Member#: 137746 Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: N.B. Canada Vehicle: '05 STi WRB	Great thread here. The straight water thing is interesting, if a little impractical for those of us in the Great White North.

02-19-2007, 03:08 AM	#92
WRXRallyBlue Scooby Specialist Member#: 48831 Join Date: Nov 2003 Chapter/Region: SWIC Location: Reno Vehicle: 2002 Protuned Wagon Bugeyes Forever	I like all the talk of theory but here are some real world results. See post #1225: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...934903&page=49 Strangely, pure water injection proved relatively nominal gains. Water/meth is where it's at.

02-19-2007, 03:26 AM	#93
modaddict Scooby Guru Member#: 95840 Join Date: Sep 2005 Chapter/Region: NWIC Location: Pasco, WA Vehicle: sold to a good bud awaiting next car	Here's my results. pump gas vs. water/meth. 50/50 water/meth...M1 from vp racing fuels. my chart is also on the perrin website.

02-19-2007, 05:30 AM	#95
ka mano Scooby Specialist Member#: 78022 Join Date: Dec 2004 Chapter/Region: NWIC Location: Seattle, Washington 05 WRB GGA Vehicle: PdxT built 2.5L 6sp 30R.82, 274/276, H2O+meth	Yes... it'd be good if Tim or Mick were to clarify here how much they pushed the H20-only tune on the dyno that day.

02-19-2007, 05:51 AM	#96
ka mano Scooby Specialist Member#: 78022 Join Date: Dec 2004 Chapter/Region: NWIC Location: Seattle, Washington 05 WRB GGA Vehicle: PdxT built 2.5L 6sp 30R.82, 274/276, H2O+meth	Here are some comparisons from the 02-10-2007 tune on my car (mod list in post #2): 92 pump vs. 50% water / 50% meth

02-19-2007, 05:53 AM	#97
ka mano Scooby Specialist Member#: 78022 Join Date: Dec 2004 Chapter/Region: NWIC Location: Seattle, Washington 05 WRB GGA Vehicle: PdxT built 2.5L 6sp 30R.82, 274/276, H2O+meth	Water only vs. 50/50

02-19-2007, 11:20 AM	#98
aps2fast4u Scooby Specialist Member#: 57871 Join Date: Mar 2004 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: Windham,Maine Vehicle: 2004 WRX 13.4 @ 102	dumb question, but it has to be distilled water, correct??

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