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Old 02-12-2007, 03:48 PM   #26
KC
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Originally Posted by Scooby South View Post
Actually the XT Forester is lighter by about 50lbs.. Forester XT weighs in at: 3040 lbs curb weight...

Bill
Than the '04 and up, you'd be right. The curb weight of the '02/'03 WRX sedan is 3085 (Wagon was 3165). The curb weight of the 1st Forester XT in '04 is 3210. That's a 125lb advantage to the WRX sedan right there.

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In race trim, I am around 3000lbs(no Driver) now.
My wagon was down to around 2875 IIRC, still with stock seats and a whole bunch of other things in STX trim. You;d be hard pressed to get a Forester down to that weight in STU trim, never mind ESP. It's the glass in the rear and extra sheet metal up top that's a killer. Where it helps for rotation, it's still dead weight.

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Old 02-12-2007, 06:13 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by solo-x View Post
The power of the camaro is impressive, but the gearing is not. Once you compare the gearing of the WRX to that of the camarostangs you realize that the WRX has a lot going for it.


The gearing is excellent in an LT1 Camaro, and on most courses, an LS1 Camaro too. Having driven plenty of Camaros and plenty of Subarus, I'm trying to figure out what your perspective with this comment is.

Karen
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Old 02-12-2007, 06:37 PM   #28
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Since I can't afford to dump the 06 engine in my 02 daily driver, this is what I have in mind for a divisionally competitive 02 sedan:

TXS TMIC
TXS Intake
TXS Catless TBE
TXS UpPipe
TXS RPV
TXS UTEC (custom tune by TXS) - ::keeps fingers crossed::
100 Octane
AGX's
ProKit's (spring/shocks will be replaced w/ CUSCO Z2 coils before Sept)
CUSCO sways
CUSCO rear strut brace
17" Rota attacks (17x7.5?, 14.9lbs ea)
225/45/17 Kumho v710s (yes, these are coming to the US on April 2nd due to "Kumho sponsoring the MX5 cup and that's their spec tire" - Vilven Tire)

I want to go wider on the wheels/tires obviously but since I might sell this thing in a couple of years I don't want to do the fender flares. The wheels/tires are legally able to stick out from the bodywork so I can't see how this would be necessary. I'm not opposed but that's just one more thing I would have to do myself. I'm on a strict budget and do 90***37; of the work myself with the help of a good friend so that is limiting what I can do as well.

Whattayathink?

Last edited by digitalseance; 02-12-2007 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 02-12-2007, 07:36 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by CamaroFS34 View Post


The gearing is excellent in an LT1 Camaro, and on most courses, an LS1 Camaro too. Having driven plenty of Camaros and plenty of Subarus, I'm trying to figure out what your perspective with this comment is.

Karen
I was thinking along the lines of that thread on sccaforums that compiled a list of torque output at the wheels for various ESP cars. The original discussion in that thread was about EVO/STi, but I (maybe erroneously?) remember the effect being similar, though not as large, for the lesser WRX's. My only point is that, even though the Camaro has 325hp stock, that doesn't really tell the whole story. One has to look at torque and torque multiplication, power gain potential, weight, etc. to get a real picture.

Speaking of which, what kind of power should the 2.5l be able to make with unlimited boost, 112+ octane and water injection? Full bore engine, .047 overbore, SP mods to the head, catless, etc. How durable IS the trans that comes on the 2.5l cars? What about for the LS1 camaro?
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Old 02-12-2007, 08:32 PM   #30
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If you guys notice, there was a DSM in 3rd this year at nats. And we all know even a 2.0 liter GD is going to be a better platform.

I really think a well prepped 2.0 liter WRX could take the win. Throw the 285/30/18's on it. ZZYZX suspension, the basic power mods and some weight reduction and you'd be right there. I don't even think you'd have to go crazy on the build.

And who needs fender flares, just bust out the sawzall.

As far as the competition. The ESP class is pretty well concrete. I think the pony guys will police themselves just fine. As far as who to look out for.

Well, check out the results!
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Old 02-12-2007, 08:42 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by solo-x View Post
I was thinking along the lines of that thread on sccaforums that compiled a list of torque output at the wheels for various ESP cars.
Okay, torque output isn't necessarily the same thing as gearing. In my experience, the gearing in a Subaru requires a lot more shifting -- usually 2-3, then 3-2 at least once -- than in a Camaro. Camaros generally require a shift into second, and that's it, except in extremely tight corners. And the NA nature of the Camaro along with the fairly flat torque "curve" starting just below 2000rpm for an LT1 and right around 2K for the LS1 means that you have more leeway when you do that initial 1-2 shift (which is extremely short in a Subaru). Shifting costs time. If you don't have to shift as much, it can only help.

Quote:
How durable IS the trans that comes on the 2.5l cars? What about for the LS1 camaro?
Well, I'm not sure about the Subaru trans in the 2.5L cars (though that is something I would like to know more about), but I can say the transmission in the LT1/LS1 cars (the T56) is pretty hardy.... What else would you call 378K on a daily driven/autocrossed hard/dragraced/opentracked stock unit?

Karen
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Old 02-12-2007, 11:14 PM   #32
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Digi ... you've got to at least put 245/40/17 R's on (Hoosier A6's) ... they'll fit without fender flares ... if you have stiff springs. Here on a narrow wagon.

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Old 02-13-2007, 10:05 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by ratt_finkel View Post
If you guys notice, there was a DSM in 3rd this year at nats. And we all know even a 2.0 liter GD is going to be a better platform.

I really think a well prepped 2.0 liter WRX could take the win. Throw the 285/30/18's on it. ZZYZX suspension, the basic power mods and some weight reduction and you'd be right there. I don't even think you'd have to go crazy on the build.

And who needs fender flares, just bust out the sawzall.

As far as the competition. The ESP class is pretty well concrete. I think the pony guys will police themselves just fine. As far as who to look out for.

Well, check out the results!
That DSM only ran good one day. They lost the turbo on first runs second day and both drivers jumped into pony cars. So, one day of runs in a familiar car, one day of runs in a completely different animal they had never driven before. That gives you just a little better idea of how quick that DSM is. And I agree, a WRX is going to be quicker. Possibly a lot quicker.
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Old 02-13-2007, 10:07 AM   #34
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Karen, what is top speed in 2nd gear for the LT1/LS1 cars? Anyone have the 1st and 2nd gear ratios and final drive ratios for the LT1/LS1 cars and the WRX's?

Agreed, the T56 is a stought gearbox.
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Old 02-13-2007, 10:10 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by makofoto View Post
Digi ... you've got to at least put 245/40/17 R's on (Hoosier A6's) ... they'll fit without fender flares ... if you have stiff springs. Here on a narrow wagon.
Read his build. He doesn't have stiff springs or shocks. I'd suggest getting a more serious suspension first/next. As KC found out with his car in STX trim, a good suspension is worth quite a bit of time.
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Old 02-13-2007, 10:18 AM   #36
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Read his build. He doesn't have stiff springs or shocks. I'd suggest getting a more serious suspension first/next. As KC found out with his car in STX trim, a good suspension is worth quite a bit of time.
I can only imagine what the car would have been like with Konis or some such suspension (Zyzzx) specifically valved for the surface in Toepicker. *shudder*

I'm getting the willies just thinking about setting up one for ESP.

I would have to say that a WRX (and those saying only with a 2.0L could be correct) could take ESP in both ProSolos (as long as you have the '06 gearbox) and nationals.

Dammit, someone gimme some money. Like I said earlier, $20K would suffice and I'll guarantee coverage and a podium finish at nationals. Maybe I might wok on this for my '08 plan. I know I've talked to solo-x at length about it, and it's quite doable.

--kC
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Old 02-13-2007, 11:26 AM   #37
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I would have to say that a WRX (and those saying only with a 2.0L could be correct) could take ESP in both ProSolos (as long as you have the '06 gearbox) and nationals.
kC,

You saw my post about corner weighing my '06 WRX TR in the DS thread? Came in at 3,056lbs with a 1/3 tank of gas on my heavy stock wheels & RE070 tires. With my racing wheels and victoracers my car will be in the 3,020lb range and I could see a fully prepped DS '06+ WRX TR dipping below the 3,000lb mark.

In SP* trim, a TR should get down to the low 2,800lb range - maybe even crack into the high 2,700lb range.
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Old 02-13-2007, 11:28 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by ratt_finkel View Post
If you guys notice, there was a DSM in 3rd this year at nats. And we all know even a 2.0 liter GD is going to be a better platform.

I really think a well prepped 2.0 liter WRX could take the win. Throw the 285/30/18's on it. ZZYZX suspension, the basic power mods and some weight reduction and you'd be right there. I don't even think you'd have to go crazy on the build.

And who needs fender flares, just bust out the sawzall.

As far as the competition. The ESP class is pretty well concrete. I think the pony guys will police themselves just fine. As far as who to look out for.

Well, check out the results!
I know just such a bugeye with Zzyzx bits who I'm trying hard to convince removing a few upgrades that have him in SM to go to ESP. Plus we know a great tuner who can maximize the TD04. He's got all the other bits... except for wider wheels tires.

I'll keep pushin' on him for doing this before '08... but he's happy with his non-nationally-competitive SM car.
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Old 02-13-2007, 12:03 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Chiketkd View Post
kC,

You saw my post about corner weighing my '06 WRX TR in the DS thread? Came in at 3,056lbs with a 1/3 tank of gas on my heavy stock wheels & RE070 tires. With my racing wheels and victoracers my car will be in the 3,020lb range and I could see a fully prepped DS '06+ WRX TR dipping below the 3,000lb mark.

In SP* trim, a TR should get down to the low 2,800lb range - maybe even crack into the high 2,700lb range.
I think that high 2700s are doable.

But since I would have to start from scratch, the '02/'03 would be the cheapest to start with.

Again, dropping a 2.5L powertrain into an '02/'03 would be the ultimate way to do it, lighter chassis to start with. Yes, the 2.5L and tranny weighs more than the outgoing unit it would replace, but the weight savings would still be there.

Like, if anyone were to build the ultimate WRX for ESP.

--kC
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Old 02-13-2007, 12:48 PM   #40
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I think that high 2700s are doable.

But since I would have to start from scratch, the '02/'03 would be the cheapest to start with.

Again, dropping a 2.5L powertrain into an '02/'03 would be the ultimate way to do it, lighter chassis to start with. Yes, the 2.5L and tranny weighs more than the outgoing unit it would replace, but the weight savings would still be there.

Like, if anyone were to build the ultimate WRX for ESP.

--kC
(2nd request... send me money)
Gotcha. However, I'm not sure if the TR is much heavier than a 2.0L. It seems like the WRX models have added ammenities over the years, but these were all thrown out in the TR package. IMHO, the TR is probably within 40lbs of an '02-'03 WRX (remember Edmunds weighed a TR at 3,122lbs and that one came with an upgraded audio system [bigger amp, more speakers] which my TR doesn't have).
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Old 02-13-2007, 12:55 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by CamaroFS34 View Post
Okay, torque output isn't necessarily the same thing as gearing. In my experience, the gearing in a Subaru requires a lot more shifting -- usually 2-3, then 3-2 at least once -- than in a Camaro. Camaros generally require a shift into second, and that's it, except in extremely tight corners. And the NA nature of the Camaro along with the fairly flat torque "curve" starting just below 2000rpm for an LT1 and right around 2K for the LS1 means that you have more leeway when you do that initial 1-2 shift (which is extremely short in a Subaru). Shifting costs time. If you don't have to shift as much, it can only help.


Well, I'm not sure about the Subaru trans in the 2.5L cars (though that is something I would like to know more about), but I can say the transmission in the LT1/LS1 cars (the T56) is pretty hardy.... What else would you call 378K on a daily driven/autocrossed hard/dragraced/opentracked stock unit?

Karen
STis often need to go into 3rd gear. But they aren't in ESP WRX gearing is far different, and you'll only need to get into third if you plan on breaking 65 mph for a while. If not, just tap the limiter for a second and you're fine. I've never hit the limiter in second in my car even in ESP trim. It still doesn't have the low end TQ or instant throttle response of a camaro, but I still believe it has massive potential.

The 2.5L cars are MUCH better about trannys. I've heard 3rd gear is now the one to break, which obviously shouldn't be a problem on an auto-x course. I easily have 200 launches on my car, many with R-comps, and the tranny is just fine Granted it's not the 509509 that you have on your green car though!

If $20k is going to anyone, it's to someone who already has a 2.5L. ME. So, I'm putting in my bid. I feel I only need $15k to go trophy in ESP. I'll even give you your money back if I don't!!! haha.
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Old 02-13-2007, 01:03 PM   #42
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How in the world would the PPG gearset be legal? You can't touch the gears in the box, and the box has to have started out as a legal through ud/bd original. Short of changing the diff, you can't touch anything else. And right there is the big achilles heel to a WRX, though it seems the newer 2.5l cars aren't having as much trouble with the gearbox going kablooie.
He was kidding about the gearset. The torque of an ESP 2.5L WRX, combined with the grip of 285s R-comps, would crush the 02-03 WRX tranny in no time. IMO you COULD run the 2.0L tranny, but you'll be replacing it constantly. I'd use the reinforced tranny from the 2.5L along with the engine.
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Old 02-13-2007, 01:16 PM   #43
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Our resident SPAC member might be able to chime in on that.
Honestly it's just a bunch of ideas right now. Nobody knows any more than anyone else...
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Old 02-13-2007, 01:43 PM   #44
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How in the world would the PPG gearset be legal? You can't touch the gears in the box, and the box has to have started out as a legal through ud/bd original. Short of changing the diff, you can't touch anything else. And right there is the big achilles heel to a WRX, though it seems the newer 2.5l cars aren't having as much trouble with the gearbox going kablooie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel
He was kidding about the gearset. The torque of an ESP 2.5L WRX, combined with the grip of 285s R-comps, would crush the 02-03 WRX tranny in no time. IMO you COULD run the 2.0L tranny, but you'll be replacing it constantly. I'd use the reinforced tranny from the 2.5L along with the engine.
wow...you thought I was serious..... Sorry...But Joel is Right...
I will throw some other tidbits for a 06/07 out...
we are getting some problems with 3rdgear breaking now here at the dealership...we have had about 4 in the last couple of monthes....and...it seems the stock clutch is weaker also than that of a 2.0 car...we have replaced 4 clutches under 10000 miles so far...


You look at the cars in ESP....most of them are frekkin Dinosours..so ANY new blood of technology in the class is already going to be a HUGE advantage...
Oh yeah..I forgot one important car thats missing...a Cadillac CTSV...seems one actually entered the San Diego tour last year....and it was basically stock with some hoosiers...Since it has the various computers...traction dontrol...and all that...its probably the most advance car in the class...followed by the Subaru's, the GTO, the new Mustangs..and the Mazda 6...


Bill
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Old 02-13-2007, 02:03 PM   #45
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Well, after the SM thread....
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Old 02-13-2007, 02:30 PM   #46
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Well, after the SM thread....
touche'
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Old 02-13-2007, 02:37 PM   #47
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Quote:
and...it seems the stock clutch is weaker also than that of a 2.0 car...we have replaced 4 clutches under 10000 miles so far...
Clutch is a non-issue in ESP.

Quote:
Oh yeah..I forgot one important car thats missing...a Cadillac CTSV...seems one actually entered the San Diego tour last year
In F-Stock, not ESP, along with Kevin Youngers in a 5 Series BMW (Dunno if it was an M) 2 CTS-Vs both co-driven and a Merc C55 AMG.

--kC
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Old 02-13-2007, 05:04 PM   #48
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We have a guy locally piloting what we affectionately call the Black Wagon of Doom and he won the class this year. We need to do some tuning as he just got a UTEC and he needs some new stickies next year. He's running 255's on his wagon. So I say go for it!

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Old 02-13-2007, 05:12 PM   #49
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X ... didn't sound like he had any suspension yet ... "ProKit" to be followed with expensive to rebuild Cusco's ... so the advice was to get stiff springs together with much wider the 225 tires. Pretty much need both it you are going to do one.
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Old 02-13-2007, 05:25 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by AUTOwrXER View Post
He was kidding about the gearset. The torque of an ESP 2.5L WRX, combined with the grip of 285s R-comps, would crush the 02-03 WRX tranny in no time. IMO you COULD run the 2.0L tranny, but you'll be replacing it constantly. I'd use the reinforced tranny from the 2.5L along with the engine.
Reinforced tranny? The 2006+MY trannies are more prone to breaking. The mechanical nature of having a 3.7 final drive means the tranny gears receive more torque.

I think KC pointed out the 2006+MY tranny because the 3.7 F.D. allows for someone to stay in 2nd gear all the time.
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