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Old 12-09-2019, 08:41 PM   #1
pazzoduc
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Default Gauges

Looking to do more track fun.
Whats a good gauge set-up for EJ25 engine monitoring?
Oil Pressure
Oil Temp
Water temp
Other needed?

Engine is a fresh forged build. Would like to keep it as long as possible.

If I was able to specify the attributes I think digital readout with some kind of needle or meter clearly lit up. Some kind of alarm or obvious lighting color change with user specified limits? Not sure on the alarm, car is loud enough probly couldn't hear it anyways.

The searching I have done only turns up suggestions based on cool looks factor, not so much usability.
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Old 12-09-2019, 08:53 PM   #2
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A/F gauge, Oil Pressure, oil temp, boost, coolant. All you really need. if you only want 3

A/f, Oil pressure, coolant. If you have an AP you can monitor boost and coolant already.
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Old 12-10-2019, 02:28 AM   #3
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In addition to what bmx said, I would add a tachometer. Keep it in the rev range it was designed for and keep the oil pressure decent and it will last a long time. Before any of that, get a good tune that prevents knock at high coolant and oil temperatures.
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Old 12-10-2019, 11:30 AM   #4
pazzoduc
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Curios why you would need to monitor A/F?
If the tune is correct I don't really see that being an issue? Fuel pump struggles you are gonna know it immediately no?
Any reason to not use the gauge cluster tach?

More interested in the BRAND and MODEL of gauge to meet the needs of my far sighted eyes. Dash distance is not as good as past the end of the hood.
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Old 12-10-2019, 12:14 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pazzoduc View Post
Curios why you would need to monitor A/F?
If the tune is correct I don't really see that being an issue? Fuel pump struggles you are gonna know it immediately no?
Any reason to not use the gauge cluster tach?

More interested in the BRAND and MODEL of gauge to meet the needs of my far sighted eyes. Dash distance is not as good as past the end of the hood.
you would want to monitor A/F just in case you blow a vacuum line or something else is running incorrectly in your tune you can see the gauge running to lean or too rich while you are tracking.

there are other variables after your tune so it really important to have a A/F gauge. i would say that im my opinion is the most important out of them all.
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Old 12-10-2019, 12:15 PM   #6
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Defi makes good quality gauges, that are easy to read, and if you go with their Link system, will give an audible warning and a visible light warning on the gauge too.
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Old 12-10-2019, 12:23 PM   #7
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Oil temp, Oil pressure, Boost, EGT.
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Old 12-10-2019, 01:20 PM   #8
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Are you using a Cobb? If so you can wire in oil temp, pressure, WBO2, and it already has coolant temp and boost. Seems like the easy button to me vs having to buy a bunch of gauges and mounting them.

For track stuff you're going to know if you have a vacuum leak or something else that'll affect the AFR because the car won't be running right. You'll notice that long before you happen to look down and see the AFR's lean or rich. Oil pressure, followed by coolant and oil temp, followed by boost are the ones you need on track. EGT is nice to see, but for the average track day you need something logging it for it to be useful.

Way more engines die on track from overheating fluids or loss of oil pressure.
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Old 12-10-2019, 01:35 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subydude View Post
Way more engines die on track from overheating fluids or loss of oil pressure.
That's certainly my thinking.

I do have a Cobb AP, but I'm far-sighted and it's a bit tough to read clearly.... Hence looking for some digital/meter combo gauges for the important stuff.

Whats the interest in watching boost pressure?
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Old 12-10-2019, 02:20 PM   #10
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Boost pressure being consistent means things are working. If boost changes (goes lower/higher) it's something to look into. Or if it's spooling slower, etc, all sorts of stuff you can extrapolate there.
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Old 12-10-2019, 03:49 PM   #11
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For the track use: your existing 2006 WRX cluster tachometer, 52mm analog meters (needles) with good contrast colors for engine oil press (EOP) and oil temp (EOT). *EOP sender mounted where the Subaru oil press switch was mounted. EOT sender mounted in a killerB oil pan drain plug adapter.* I do not think digital readout meters are going to be viewable to you. Mount these in the SMY cluster surround. Pick quality meters that use "accurate" senders and get some with visual and audible warning features [Defi Advance]. All other parameters (EGT, separate ECT, etc) are a complete waste since you will not have attention to spend monitoring multiple gauges. For example EGT has little to no value anymore since WBO2s have evolved...outside of ohh look at my plethora of gauges.

Since you have the APv3 already, you should wire a WBO2 with 5v output signal into the AP for monitoring, logging, tuning. An AEM UEGO will also provide a visible (although a bit busy) meter display. The boost and coolant temp can be viewed through the AP as you well know. All of those parameters are not things you will be continually monitoring on-track but inherently useful (likely critical) for your modification plans. If the tune is solid then you really do not need to view parameters like boost on-track.

With a fresh engine build you should be monitoring EOP anyways.

Last edited by JarHarms; 12-11-2019 at 10:17 AM. Reason: sender locations are also important
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Old 12-11-2019, 07:27 PM   #12
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Great post, THX Jar
At this point I'm thinking the triple gauge pod at the clock location. The farther from me to gauges, the easier to read and they are inherently closer to sight path without having to look down. Course I could always wear my grandpa readers hanging off the end of my nose to see fine but ...LOL... who wants to do that? Seriously though I can see the dash pretty good, It's just not crystal clear and I'm wanting comprehension at a glance.

Wouldn't it be better to weld a bung to the oil pan? Seems better than having to mess with the sender every time I change the oil?

Doesn't the AP already monitor 02 via the OBD connection? I haven't played with it much yet. A tuner isn't going to use a gauge to tune eh? Going to use the OBD connection no?

Did some surfing and I think AEM gauges would be good choices.
Oil press: https://www.aemelectronics.com/produ...e-100psi-Gauge
Oil, water Temp:https://www.aemelectronics.com/produ...perature-Gauge
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Old 12-12-2019, 07:03 PM   #13
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Center clock pod will allow you to use larger 60mm meters. Although those AEMs are 52mm. I would EOT/EOP/ECT or EOT/EOP/WBO2

WBO2 is not the same as the factory primary O2 signal. You must currently be on an off-shelf map. Tuning really needs a proper WBO2 signal to datalog. If your tuner is not using a WBO2 then find another tuner.

Sure, if you are willing take the oil pan off and weld that in properly. It's more important that you are taking EOT from the oil sump.

Last edited by JarHarms; 12-12-2019 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 12-12-2019, 10:48 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pazzoduc View Post
Great post, THX Jar
At this point I'm thinking the triple gauge pod at the clock location. The farther from me to gauges, the easier to read and they are inherently closer to sight path without having to look down. Course I could always wear my grandpa readers hanging off the end of my nose to see fine but ...LOL... who wants to do that? Seriously though I can see the dash pretty good, It's just not crystal clear and I'm wanting comprehension at a glance.

Wouldn't it be better to weld a bung to the oil pan? Seems better than having to mess with the sender every time I change the oil?

Doesn't the AP already monitor 02 via the OBD connection? I haven't played with it much yet. A tuner isn't going to use a gauge to tune eh? Going to use the OBD connection no?

Did some surfing and I think AEM gauges would be good choices.
Oil press: https://www.aemelectronics.com/produ...e-100psi-Gauge
Oil, water Temp:https://www.aemelectronics.com/produ...perature-Gauge
I've got the X-Series in the ATI pod, Much better with the hood to shade reflections, however the face of the gauge will reflect some from light sources outside the passenger front side window. Should consider angle rings to point the face more toward the driver, or go with hooded individual gauge mounts.

My next plan was to wire the failsafe's from these gauges. If you do the full data logging, you can set safe zones, if oil pressure drops, or temps climb too high, they can tell the ECU to back off. Because usually by time you notice a gauge in the RED, the damage is already done. Peak values just show when it done did blowed up.

Boost, AFR, Oil Pressure, should have done water and oil temp instead.



Also Killer-B aluminum oil pans have 2 ports, one for temp sender and one for drain, with the added benefit of additional capacity.

Last edited by Blktrax; 12-12-2019 at 10:55 PM.
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Old 12-14-2019, 12:57 PM   #15
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Excellent info. The fail safe feature is potentially the most awesome thing I have heard of.

What pieces/parts are needed to integrate the fail safe feature and data logging? I was assuming data logging would be plug and play with the OBDll port? And I was assuming the gauges would be KISS principal stand alone kind of set-ups.

Not on an off-shelf map currently. But do not know enough about the tuning specifics to know what was done. The car is only running the stock ECU, but I do knot know what sensors were used. More to learn. Calvin Dotson (previous Cobb tuner turned independent) is the tuner.

The Killer-b oil pan is already on the build list. Good to know about the sender port.

EDIT: Currently the tune is restricted due to engine internals. Changed to an FP blue turbo but kept output around 350WHP/T until engine is built. Went with FP blue to get faster spooling to dual use the car for Autocross and also have enough power for track days. Life is a compromise. Goal is +/- 450HP that spools as early as possible.

Last edited by pazzoduc; 12-14-2019 at 01:02 PM. Reason: Added info re tune
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Old 12-15-2019, 12:32 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pazzoduc View Post
Excellent info. The fail safe feature is potentially the most awesome thing I have heard of.

What pieces/parts are needed to integrate the fail safe feature and data logging? I was assuming data logging would be plug and play with the OBDll port? And I was assuming the gauges would be KISS principal stand alone kind of set-ups.

Not on an off-shelf map currently. But do not know enough about the tuning specifics to know what was done. The car is only running the stock ECU, but I do knot know what sensors were used. More to learn. Calvin Dotson (previous Cobb tuner turned independent) is the tuner.

The Killer-b oil pan is already on the build list. Good to know about the sender port.

EDIT: Currently the tune is restricted due to engine internals. Changed to an FP blue turbo but kept output around 350WHP/T until engine is built. Went with FP blue to get faster spooling to dual use the car for Autocross and also have enough power for track days. Life is a compromise. Goal is +/- 450HP that spools as early as possible.
I have a Defi ZD clubsport which is a decent intermediate option for track days with warning features but very little logging capability.

https://i.imgur.com/E61XZew.jpg

If you can afford it I would start looking at an AIM dash and standalone Ecu your posts seem to indicate you want more failsafes and data logging than any aftermarket gauge is going to offer you.

Something like an AIM MXS or MXL would allow for lap logging and data logging. Haltech , Motec or Link ECUs would allow for failsafes to be put in place for your engine.

Say for instance you have a cooling issue and temps skyrocket to 240f , with proper failsafes in place the car will go into limp mode and your dash will go insane warning you. Same can be done for oil pressure , fuel pressure and oil temp as well. You can set failsafes for almost anything.

If I ever go full track car with any of my projects I would not even consider anything else.
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Old 12-18-2019, 03:17 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blktrax View Post
I've got the X-Series in the ATI pod, Much better with the hood to shade reflections, however the face of the gauge will reflect some from light sources outside the passenger front side window. Should consider angle rings to point the face more toward the driver, or go with hooded individual gauge mounts.
Hmm I had prior considered AEM's meters. Are X-series larger than 52mm? They look like 60mm but AEM;s site says 52mm housing...
Your picture looks great and is a nice reference. Although I personally can't get past digital displays, I just like needles better. Hence why I had moved my AEM UEGO to the ashtray area so I can close the lid up on the circus show. Noted on the meter placement tips. I opted to forgo my initial clockpod pop-up nav project and just go with clockpod meters instead. What I have coming are basically 60mm Defi-Link. Might have to consider the ATI pod or some angle rings if this Defi pod has all the glares.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blktrax View Post
Also Killer-B aluminum oil pans have 2 ports, one for temp sender and one for drain, with the added benefit of additional capacity.
Good point. I did not think OP was going that deeply so I did not suggest. But yes that would work well. I would go the same route but I use that 2nd port for my AOS oil drain already.

Last edited by JarHarms; 12-18-2019 at 03:29 PM.
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Old 12-18-2019, 08:39 PM   #18
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They are 52mm bore , but they got rid of a lot of the wasted thick bezel space of the old gauges. The rim of the “glass” is much much thinner, and the digital readout is larger.

Also had a main power switch in the console, to kill the light show when needed on the old gauges. Just cuts inline power to all of them. They reboot on the fly just fine. But when I swapped to the new ones , removed the switch, I hardly ever ran them off anyways. The newer auto-dim with the hooded pod works really well.

Last edited by Blktrax; 12-18-2019 at 08:45 PM.
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Old 12-20-2019, 11:33 AM   #19
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Default OE Water Temp Gauge No Good?

Hey guys,
I don't want to hijack the thread, but I see recommendations for water temp gauges, and I think I remember hearing that the OE water temp needle on the dash is slow to respond to temp changes? Like too slow for track use?

I have an AP, so I can kinda get a rough idea of what the actual water temp translates to on the dash gauge, but I swear I've never seen that needle move once it gets up to temp, even with spirited street driving/or light duty tracking.

Thanks!

Last edited by WhiteZombie; 12-20-2019 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 12-20-2019, 12:46 PM   #20
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The OEM water temp gauge is basically in the same place from about 150 ish F to 230 ish F. Then from 230 on up it moves up pretty quickly to hot. Generally, by the time you see the OEM water gauge moving things are already going poorly, so a real water temp gauge tells you before things start going downhill.
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Old 12-20-2019, 05:37 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subydude View Post
The OEM water temp gauge is basically in the same place from about 150 ish F to 230 ish F. Then from 230 on up it moves up pretty quickly to hot. Generally, by the time you see the OEM water gauge moving things are already going poorly, so a real water temp gauge tells you before things start going downhill.
Damn, that's nuts! Like it literally doesn't move the needle in that range? Or the range between the 1/4 and 3/4 points is just a whopping 80 degrees??

I'm gonna have to bust out the AP once it's warmer again in the spring and take a look at that. I've got oil pressure and oil temp gauges, and IIRC oil and coolant temps are typically within 10-20 degrees of each other?
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Old 12-20-2019, 06:20 PM   #22
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Damn, that's nuts! Like it literally doesn't move the needle in that range? Or the range between the 1/4 and 3/4 points is just a whopping 80 degrees??

I'm gonna have to bust out the AP once it's warmer again in the spring and take a look at that. I've got oil pressure and oil temp gauges, and IIRC oil and coolant temps are typically within 10-20 degrees of each other?
During DD oil and coolant are usually pretty close. When you're pushing it in motorsports oil will go higher.

And there's just a massive dead zone for the stock coolant temp gauge so when it stabilizes figure you're roughly 150-160, and when it starts to move from it's "normal" spot you're like 225-230.

I've gotten mine to 239 and it didn't move the coolant temp gauge at all past normal.
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Old 12-23-2019, 12:52 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by subydude View Post
During DD oil and coolant are usually pretty close. When you're pushing it in motorsports oil will go higher.

And there's just a massive dead zone for the stock coolant temp gauge so when it stabilizes figure you're roughly 150-160, and when it starts to move from it's "normal" spot you're like 225-230.

I've gotten mine to 239 and it didn't move the coolant temp gauge at all past normal.
Wow, that really is pretty nuts. I'll plan on doing a coolant temp gauge as well then. Oil temp and oil pressure are on their way.

Thanks for the the insight!
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Old 12-24-2019, 11:53 AM   #24
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Deleted, topic needs own thread

Last edited by pazzoduc; 12-24-2019 at 12:01 PM.
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