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Old 02-14-2007, 04:38 PM   #76
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Good for you to go to EVO School ... best Mod.
I'm doing the Evo School mod in April '07!
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Old 02-14-2007, 04:43 PM   #77
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Redi ... a Wagon has won the STX National Championship.

My wagon was a good bit under 3,000 ... but that was in a mild SM trim. But try to save everywhere, hollow sway bars, lite weight battery, racing seats, WHEELS, etc.

You can fit wider Sedan A arms to your wagon ... and use adjustable lateral links in back to increase your track ... along with Spacers. If you don't change out your axle stubs to the slightly longer Sedan ones ... be careful going over big bumps, etc. There have been a few cases of people dropping out their short axle. I never had any problem. Spacers might decrease your bearing life, but AX'ing is going to do that anyway. R tires will definitely shorten your bearings life. Make sure your axle nuts are kept tight, even if the brass safety indent ring doesn't show movement. I developed cracked axle receivers, which can happen sooner if those axle nuts aren't kept properly torqued.
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Old 02-14-2007, 04:44 PM   #78
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Oh, I know the earlier ones were a real problem. Time will truely tell if the '06s are stronger or not, I suppose.
Agreed...time will tell. However, posts like these do indicate that in some cases, they have been able to withstand a good deal of abuse/power:
Quote:
Originally Posted by chump View Post
Running 348/348 with a 20G on a TR. No issues yet and I drive it like I stole it.
This post was taken from the 20g with 06 tranny in the Transmission forum.
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Old 02-14-2007, 04:51 PM   #79
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Shots from our last Evo School: http://public.fotki.com/makofoto/200...chool-el-toro/

We had the first Evo Extreme school where the cars were fitted with GPS and Inertial something tracking units, plus Chase Cam solid state cameras. After your session, a racing data acquisition engineer would compare your runs with the instructors runs in your cars. You could overlay the runs ... and would have irrefutable evidence that typically Tight Is Right, etc. You could see that you might be faster in a corner then the instructor, but your longer line put you behind at corner exit. AX doesn't have long straight aways where highest exit speed is of paramount importance, like in road racing. It was very cool to see how linked corners need to be taken. You might be very fast in a particular element, but that would completely screw you in the next two elements, putting you behind time wise.
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Old 02-15-2007, 01:09 AM   #80
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I'm pretty excited about the evo school. I'll be on my victo's but it should still be fun and educational. And...the best mod.

I've heard about the glass tranny thing, a friend of mine warned me of that issue way before I got mine. His was an 02 as well and he went through at least one; but he also went through two engines so I took it rather lightly. Most courses are designed so you shouldn't have to hit first more than once so shifting back and forth won't be that bad, but the transition from brakes to power and at 100% throttle eventually takes its toll. If I haven't mentioned it already, this is a daily driver and will be driven 4hrs on average to divisional events.

I don't want to let too much out of the bag but I will not be going with any other new suspension components other than one particular brand, with the exception of the end-links; sounds like I'll go with the Poltec adjustable end links since this company doesn't make them (that I know of). I'm all about being adjustable!

I figured the 18" wheels weren't going to be better. I ran my crx with 13x8 many years ago. Since I can't change the size of the brake rotors, would a real low profile 16" tire with light wheels be better than the 17? If the physics are to a smaller wheel then in theory it would be better. Just a thought...


I would also like to know what makes the camaro so dominating and apparently the car of choice for most individuals in ESP? It's got to be more than gearing. I've never driven one but I've driven a (stock) cobra and it didn't feel very big; the camaro looks so big with that front end seems like it would be a handful to get around the course. Do they make computer systems similar to the UTEC for camaros and stangs or do they all just reflash? Ignition (or whatever brand), exhaust, and a reflash is about all you can do for power right?
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Old 02-15-2007, 01:26 AM   #81
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Quote:
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What happend to the ferarri? That doesn't look like healthy smoke!

I need you to take pictures of my events, those are all some very nice shots!
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Old 02-15-2007, 02:41 AM   #82
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The steering fluid top gasket didn't seat properly ... fluid was getting onto the exhaust headers.

16" wheels ... again, less choice of "best" tires and sizes.

My 2nd gear stripped from being very on and off the gas while racing with R tires. That finally got me to smooth out my inputs!
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Old 02-15-2007, 07:25 AM   #83
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. 18" wheels are not the way to go. They are typically heavier, create more centrifugal forces (making for worse braking and turn in) and limit tire choice. Note that F1's don't use low profile tires.
That is impossible to say, it depends completely on car, class and the best that is available. F1s dont use bigger wheels because its against the rules.
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Old 02-15-2007, 09:01 AM   #84
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Digi ... Sway bars help control lean in cornering but not under braking. One problem with WRX's is that they lift their inside rear wheel in corner entry. Stiffer springs help in that regard ... but ... this a big issue. Lots of old threads covering these things. You also need proper droop with your struts, etc. But, for instance Tein Flex's have won a number of National Championships and they are typically over damping and do not have much travel. Excellent driving over came those "problems." But the bar has been raised and better suspension components are being used.

Typically people start off with big bars and softer springs ... then go to stiffer springs and softer bars. 27 Whiteline is the way to go at first. Save yourself time and money and go with Poltec adjustable end links ... rather then trying three other types of endlinks first.

The winner of the STU National Championship used 245 tires on his thin'ish oem 7.5" wheels, while others where using up to 10" wheels ... so extra wide isn't absolutely necessary. 18" wheels are not the way to go. They are typically heavier, create more centrifugal forces (making for worse braking and turn in) and limit tire choice. Note that F1's don't use low profile tires.

Good for you to go to EVO School ... best Mod.
Agreed on the EVO school...I am using Cusco 21 front, and the adjust cusco 20-24 rear...in the 22 position...running 12k springs int he front.. and 8k in the rear...Every once in while...I lift the inside tire....but not tooo often now...and I am on 17's....

Quote:
Originally Posted by makofoto View Post
The steering fluid top gasket didn't seat properly ... fluid was getting onto the exhaust headers.

16" wheels ... again, less choice of "best" tires and sizes.

My 2nd gear stripped from being very on and off the gas while racing with R tires. That finally got me to smooth out my inputs!
thats a HUGE statement right there...me...I try to get to 3rd gear(STi) as soon as I can so the car isn't so peaky...lower RPM makes me more smooth by default....and I am in the torque band alot more..

Bill
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Old 02-15-2007, 09:31 AM   #85
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Redi ... a Wagon has won the STX National Championship.

My wagon was a good bit under 3,000 ... but that was in a mild SM trim. But try to save everywhere, hollow sway bars, lite weight battery, racing seats, WHEELS, etc.

You can fit wider Sedan A arms to your wagon ... and use adjustable lateral links in back to increase your track ... along with Spacers. If you don't change out your axle stubs to the slightly longer Sedan ones ... be careful going over big bumps, etc. There have been a few cases of people dropping out their short axle. I never had any problem. Spacers might decrease your bearing life, but AX'ing is going to do that anyway. R tires will definitely shorten your bearings life. Make sure your axle nuts are kept tight, even if the brass safety indent ring doesn't show movement. I developed cracked axle receivers, which can happen sooner if those axle nuts aren't kept properly torqued.
yeah i am expecting to change our my bearings sometime in the middle of this year when i do the subaru 4-pot/2-pot. I never heard of the problem that you are talking about but it is definielty good to know and i will have to keep a check on it!! Thanks.

ps Im assuming when you say axle stubs you mean housing for cv joints side, ie splined part
also i was told before, never investigated, that if i wanted to run sedan A arms i would have to basically swap over the entire fron suspension from the sedan. your saying i can just swap arm without a problem ?
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Old 02-15-2007, 04:43 PM   #86
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I would also like to know what makes the camaro so dominating and apparently the car of choice for most individuals in ESP? It's got to be more than gearing. I've never driven one but I've driven a (stock) cobra and it didn't feel very big; the camaro looks so big with that front end seems like it would be a handful to get around the course. Do they make computer systems similar to the UTEC for camaros and stangs or do they all just reflash? Ignition (or whatever brand), exhaust, and a reflash is about all you can do for power right?
Well, some of it is obviously the pervasive lemming mentality of National level autocrossers -- if it's winning, it must be the car to have, right? Yes, they are big, but they aren't the pigs too many people think they are, unless you overdrive it. Driving a Camaro well will teach you a lot about driving overall, because it will bite you so badly if you aren't patient. Joel Fehrman can tell you a little bit about that, after he took my FS car out for a couple of runs at a practice day. Driven impeccably, a third gen Camaro (82-92)is damned hard to beat, and a fourth gen (93+) isn't too far behind. Yes, they are completely different beasts.

The usual computer "mods" for a Camaro are done using the LT1 or LS1 edit programs (or similar, like Hypertech). There's a lot to be done with headers and intake. Keep in mind though that these cars are pretty powerful in stock form, and their biggest problems with that power in stock trim is that they can't use it due to traction problems. The stock limited slip is very limited, and one of the first mods any serious ESP competitor will do is to upgrade to a Torsen T2R. The next thing is to put meatier tires on it so they can run 315s. The power mods aren't as crucial until you can actually use it.

Karen
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Old 02-15-2007, 06:20 PM   #87
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what suspensiona/tire/wheel combo is on this?

[/quote]


Thanks
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Old 02-15-2007, 07:41 PM   #88
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- Megan racing Track Coilovers(WRX)9.5K Fr/12K Rear
(My next setup will be this spring rate combo, currently 8K Fr. 10K Rr)
- Kumho 710's 275-40-17
- Enkei RPF1's 17 x 8.
The tires are a bit bulgy sidewall wise but just fine.

Quote:
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what suspensiona/tire/wheel combo is on this?


Thanks[/quote]
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Old 02-15-2007, 08:52 PM   #89
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Those foglights aren't legal....

--kC
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Old 02-15-2007, 08:54 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by CamaroFS34 View Post
Well, some of it is obviously the pervasive lemming mentality of National level autocrossers -- if it's winning, it must be the car to have, right? Yes, they are big, but they aren't the pigs too many people think they are, unless you overdrive it. Driving a Camaro well will teach you a lot about driving overall, because it will bite you so badly if you aren't patient. Joel Fehrman can tell you a little bit about that, after he took my FS car out for a couple of runs at a practice day. Driven impeccably, a third gen Camaro (82-92)is damned hard to beat, and a fourth gen (93+) isn't too far behind. Yes, they are completely different beasts.

The usual computer "mods" for a Camaro are done using the LT1 or LS1 edit programs (or similar, like Hypertech). There's a lot to be done with headers and intake. Keep in mind though that these cars are pretty powerful in stock form, and their biggest problems with that power in stock trim is that they can't use it due to traction problems. The stock limited slip is very limited, and one of the first mods any serious ESP competitor will do is to upgrade to a Torsen T2R. The next thing is to put meatier tires on it so they can run 315s. The power mods aren't as crucial until you can actually use it.

Karen
Thanks Karen, this was exactly what I was wanting to know! I'll start asking about LSDs at the events to see what to expect from their runs. The SS that runs in my region doesn't have anything serious other than some upgraded suspension, intake, and some headers. I was about 1.5 seconds behind with no power mods (except TBE) and victos.

What about the mustang/cobra's? I'm fimiliar enough with the DSMs (eclipse, etc); they tend to have all the same stuff as the WRX for the most part.
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Old 02-16-2007, 12:19 AM   #91
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Those foglights aren't legal....

--kC
1. I need an emoticon for "weenie protest"

2. Adding ballast in my book.

3. Neither is my aluminum skidplate. Heavier than the plastic one. Refer again to comment 1 and 2.

Isn't the picture great though. Can't thank Makofoto enough that day.
He took tire temps for me and took great photos!!

Thanks again.
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Old 02-16-2007, 01:13 PM   #92
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Just to add some more perspective...

I've been prepping an LS1 Camaro for ESP this year. After driving Sam's LS1 and Brian Burdette's LT1 last year, I decided it was the right move for me. It's amazing how much these cars force you to drive. Take a look at the pedigree of people that come from ponycars: Ames, Daddio, Kozlaks, Strano, Jr, etc. There's a reason - and it's why I bought one. It's sort of unfair to say it's dinosaur technology. Some of it certainly is, but hey, it works! And the front suspension works very well. For it's massive size, these things are surprisingly nimble on their feet. I'll also add, having come from a BMW, that simpler technology is really a plus on your wallet.

I've driven what is probably very close to a national level prep STX WRX (John Willemin's) as well as many Subaru's, and I used to own an FXT. A hybrid WRX is potentially an ESP class killer. Fedja in the DSM is gonna be really tough too. Anyway, There's 3 things I think that prevent it.. or have thus far.

1. It takes a lot of money
2. It takes someone interested in ESP, as most would just go start with an STI
3. Even after you build it, reliability is questionable: see STX and DSMs

As for the Camaro's, here's some specs for comparison purposes.
Mine stock made 307whp/306wtq
With 315s, 2nd goes to ~69-70 mph
With bushings, camber is -2-2.5
Weight is about 3400 lbs, if I can get under that I'll be happy.

I liked the feel of Brian's LT1 more, but hopefully I'll grow to like the LS1 too.
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Old 02-16-2007, 01:56 PM   #93
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How much power can you make with engine mods in the Camaro? I could make 300+ hp with water injection and stock everything else, I'm sure. Certainly not going that route this year, though.
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Old 02-16-2007, 02:08 PM   #94
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I'll go with the Rolls Royce answer: "Adequate"

Seriously, power is not an issue. It's an LSx motor, like Karen said, with intake/exhaust there's a good bit of power hiding under there. Don't see any reason it wouldn't be closer to 400 crank from what I know.

The issue is putting it down. Thus 315s. Thus full tank of gas. Etc.
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Old 02-16-2007, 03:21 PM   #95
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great info....^^^ thanks...a tuned 2.5 can match it in torque...but not HP...
It could be argued that a fully prepped ESP WRX could actually contend for the title...on the other side of that...is the driver.....some might have the car...and could pay say....Mark Daddio to run it...then it might have a fight'n chance...

Bill
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Old 02-16-2007, 03:49 PM   #96
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I think a well prepped WRX in ESP (not fully prepped) with a fairly decent top 10 national trophy level driver can beat Strano in the camaro, etc... especially on the Heartland Park surface. What I mean by fairly prepped... Good suspension, fender flares, wide tires, boost.

But that's just me.

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Old 02-16-2007, 04:16 PM   #97
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great info....^^^ thanks...a tuned 2.5 can match it in torque...but not HP...
It could be argued that a fully prepped ESP WRX could actually contend for the title...on the other side of that...is the driver.....some might have the car...and could pay say....Mark Daddio to run it...then it might have a fight'n chance...

Bill
A tuned 2.5 running C16, water injection and a good amount of boost, could definitely match the torque of an *SP LS1 Camaro AND I wouldn't be surprised if it'll match the power-to-weight ratio as well!

My D-stock '06 WRX TR weighed in at 3,056lbs w/o driver on my heavy factory wheels, 225/45/17 RE070's (27lbs a piece!) and just over a 1/3 tank of gas - a fully prepped DS 2.5 could probably just dip below 3,000lbs. Do *SP legal weight reduction/mods and a TR could dip down into the low 2,800lbs maybe even the high 2,700lbs range!

If the *SP Camaros have a racing weight in the 3,400lbs range, then a WRX could probably be down 50-60hp to one, but still have an equal power-to-weight ratio.
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Old 02-16-2007, 09:08 PM   #98
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Good for you to go to EVO School ... best Mod.
This thread is making for interesting reading, as I am going to be competing this year in an FXT in ESP.

While I am a complete novice (I have yet to go to any AutoX), I just attended an Evolution school (Phase I and II), and I have a feeling it would have taken me a VERY long time to learn what I did in those two days.

My first real event is next weekend and I am raring to go.
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Old 02-16-2007, 09:48 PM   #99
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I think a well prepped WRX in ESP (not fully prepped) with a fairly decent top 10 national trophy level driver can beat Strano in the camaro, etc... especially on the Heartland Park surface. What I mean by fairly prepped... Good suspension, fender flares, wide tires, boost.

But that's just me.

--kC
(Gimme money to do this build for '08)
Paypal addy????? $1 comin your way big boy..
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Old 02-16-2007, 10:00 PM   #100
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A tuned 2.5 running C16, water injection and a good amount of boost, could definitely match the torque of an *SP LS1 Camaro AND I wouldn't be surprised if it'll match the power-to-weight ratio as well!

My D-stock '06 WRX TR weighed in at 3,056lbs w/o driver on my heavy factory wheels, 225/45/17 RE070's (27lbs a piece!) and just over a 1/3 tank of gas - a fully prepped DS 2.5 could probably just dip below 3,000lbs. Do *SP legal weight reduction/mods and a TR could dip down into the low 2,800lbs maybe even the high 2,700lbs range!

If the *SP Camaros have a racing weight in the 3,400lbs range, then a WRX could probably be down 50-60hp to one, but still have an equal power-to-weight ratio.
hmmmmmmmm...thats runnin mighty lean....I don't see it getting down that low....even with all the weight...I know a 04 WRX in STX trim...(Seats, no wing...pretty much every weight reduction thing available including SSR's and 245 Kumho' MX's...came in @ 2917 @ national's...(Superman's car)...I think it could be a contender...for sure...
most 06/07 WRX's with tune..is getting about 240ish hp...and right at 300 lb torque on our Dyno..(DynoPak) with nothing more than a Turboback...a tune and intake...some decent suspension...17x9's and at least 275's...oh and some LSD's in the tranny...I think I would micropolish and cryo treat the stock gears...No rule against that......a lighter flywheel...better clutch...and a couple of spare axles...for the season...just need some Execution of this brilliant plan.....Oh..I forgot...a Tom Hoppe special Stock Turbo...

KC


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