Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Sunday December 17, 2017
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo)

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-06-2005, 11:32 AM   #26
spit_heron
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 23655
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: philly
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CMJ
Polished metal retains more heat than a rough surface would.
well, not when its wrapped and taped.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
spit_heron is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 05-06-2005, 12:27 PM   #27
ride5000
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:
2003 GGA MBP
12.9 / 105+

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spit_heron
well, not when its wrapped and taped.
sure it does!
ride5000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2005, 12:48 PM   #28
spit_heron
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 23655
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: philly
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000
sure it does!
i would think the primary modes of heat transfer would be conduction through the walls, conduction to the wrap (with a pretty high contact resistance), conduction to the tape, then convection off the tape, with a little emiittance to surroundings. No?
spit_heron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2005, 01:07 PM   #29
ride5000
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:
2003 GGA MBP
12.9 / 105+

Default

for the most part, i agree with your prioritizations.

remember though that as materials get near 1200* F they begin emitting visible light. i wouldn't be that surprised to see the cast sections hit those temps on long highway pulls. i think we'd all agree that something visibly glowing hot is pretty hot!

i think radiation plays a bigger part in the throwing off of exhaust heat than you may be attributing. to get a feel for it, all you need to do is do a pull, stop the car, and put your arm under the front bumper to feel it... no conduction, no convection, only radiation.

in any event, a light surface polish certainly doesn't hurt (ie, make radiation WORSE), and the main purpose was to preserve the integrity of the relatively fragile wrap. anything else is gravy in my mind. it literally took about 15 minutes with the angle grinder and flap disc.
ride5000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2005, 01:17 PM   #30
distorto
Top Scoob 024
 
Member#: 56364
Join Date: Mar 2004
Chapter/Region: International
Location: houston, texas
Vehicle:
RIP stompr :(
bagged vulvva

Default

i have a question, once you get past the gasket area, is there anymore cutting to do or are you just polishing it? i want to try this on mine, but i'm not sure if i could keep it even down inside the pipes.
distorto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2005, 01:27 PM   #31
spit_heron
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 23655
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: philly
Default

with unwrapped manifolds, radiation off the cast walls is certainly a significant loss of heat.

I guess im saying that the only surface that can radiate to surroundings in your setup is the outer layer, i.e. the tape (which will have a pretty low emissivity).

As you said, it seems the benefits of not having an abrasive surface against the wrap is worth the time itself though. Parts look good man! Let us know how that tape holds up.
spit_heron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2005, 01:37 PM   #32
ride5000
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:
2003 GGA MBP
12.9 / 105+

Default

disorto:

feathering your materials removal down into the bore of the pipes is what differentiates a mediocre job from a great one. i found the most useful carbide bit to be this one:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=38687

i liked it because it offers straight sides. if you're attentive while grinding you can use this to your advantage to insure a relatively gentle bellmouth/taper from inlet to bore. i started by taking a large amount of material off, right at the inlet, at say a 45* angle, bringing it back to the gasket line. then on subsequent passes i "worked" the point of bit/pipe contact back further and further. by the end of the rough work the bit was cutting across its whole edge. this was my signal that the bellmouth/taper was gentle and gradual enough.

as others in other threads have pointed out, be wary of the pipes in the vicinity of the "flat" portions. you'll see exactly what i mean when you've got them in hand. particularly the LH collector.. cylinder #4 (driver's rear). it's tempting to cut it back hard but the wall thickness doesn't give you much room to work.
ride5000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2005, 02:39 PM   #33
scooby-x
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 83220
Join Date: Mar 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Crazy Acres Insane Asylum
Vehicle:
00 Beast Jr. RS
Jesse likes little boys..

Default

Nice job. Now as for the stock vs after market... would you do this over an equal length header, ceramic coated of course.
scooby-x is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2005, 02:50 PM   #34
jblaine
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 8512
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: St. Pete, FL
Vehicle:
2002 WRX chassis...
stage-infinity.com

Default

Looks good, Ken. Satisfying work to look at when done, eh?
jblaine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2005, 03:07 PM   #35
distorto
Top Scoob 024
 
Member#: 56364
Join Date: Mar 2004
Chapter/Region: International
Location: houston, texas
Vehicle:
RIP stompr :(
bagged vulvva

Default

would the electric die grinder from harbour freight be enough?http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=44141
distorto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2005, 04:40 PM   #36
bofh
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 59287
Join Date: Apr 2004
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Houston, Tx
Vehicle:
2007 WRB WRX
2004 WRB WRX (RIP)

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by distorto
would the electric die grinder from harbour freight be enough?http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=44141
Enough for what? Essentially it is a plug in Dremel tool, with out the extension shaft. I like the extension shaft. Makes it easier to get to hard to reach spots. As to will it do, yes, but more slowly. Bigger tools remove material quicker. A Dremel will work, but it will take longer.
bofh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2005, 09:35 AM   #37
ride5000
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:
2003 GGA MBP
12.9 / 105+

Default

update:

so far, no issues with tape coming off. all printing on tape has been burned off. i suspect the adhesive has burned off as well--lots of smells coming from under the hood the first few days, a couple of them rainy. all odors have now stopped. things are looking good. pictures uploaded later. preliminary results show spool ~ 2-3/5ths of a second (2-3 utec log 1 lines) faster. logs will be uploaded as well... maybe even some pretty graphs!

ken
ride5000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2005, 03:45 PM   #38
Synth
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 65748
Join Date: Jul 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Southern Maryland
Vehicle:
2004 CGM WRX Stg. 2
'86 Porsche 944 Turbo

Default

Nice writeup, thanks!
Synth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2005, 04:11 PM   #39
crazymikie
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 56321
Join Date: Mar 2004
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Hopkinton, MA
Vehicle:
2006 Honda El Camino
Green

Default

[chant]

Ken Ken Ken Ken Ken Ken Ken

[\chant]

crazymikie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2005, 04:40 PM   #40
SleepinRex
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12449
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: socal
Default

cant wait to see some hard data on this. Nice stuff ken
SleepinRex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2005, 06:21 PM   #41
CirrusWRX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 17439
Join Date: Apr 2002
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Yardley, PA
Vehicle:
2002 x2 Silver WRX
Sedan, White WRX Wagon

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000
update:

so far, no issues with tape coming off.
Sorry if you answered this, I didn't see it when reading over the thread + your writeup, but any reason you choose not to go with something like a couple of worm gear clamps instead of tape?
CirrusWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2005, 06:30 PM   #42
bryan carbon
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 34060
Join Date: Mar 2003
Default

Its taken me about 5 hours to do a set. I however do not use stones, only carbides. The only downside is that you need alot of control to keep from munching the surface in short order.
bryan carbon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2005, 07:04 PM   #43
ride5000
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:
2003 GGA MBP
12.9 / 105+

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CirrusWRX
Sorry if you answered this, I didn't see it when reading over the thread + your writeup, but any reason you choose not to go with something like a couple of worm gear clamps instead of tape?
the clamps are UNDER the foil.

the wrap is secured by the clamps, so that even if the foil turns out to be an utter failure the wrap will retain integrity. so far the foil is holding out better than expected, and the splash shield hasn't been replaced yet.

hth
ken
ride5000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2005, 11:31 PM   #44
CirrusWRX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 17439
Join Date: Apr 2002
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Yardley, PA
Vehicle:
2002 x2 Silver WRX
Sedan, White WRX Wagon

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000
the clamps are UNDER the foil.
d'oh! my bad! that makes sense, thanks.
CirrusWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2005, 09:42 AM   #45
ride5000
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:
2003 GGA MBP
12.9 / 105+

Default

another update:

on a whim while driving for gas last night i decided to turn up the wick a bit, so i reached down and gave my hallman a full turn to the right. with no launch and a very gentle roll on, getting a bar of boost in 1st by 4.5k, topping at 18psi by redline. things were quiet! in fact, so quiet, i almost thought my knock sensor had gone tits up, so i turned on the tuner pro detcans. nope.. no knock.

after filling up, got on the highway and on a 4th gear torque peak full throttle roll on, the boost got a little high (22psi) and i got a cel flash. this was corroborated via the detcans.. a small knock, but knock nonetheless. afrs were spot on, 11.5:1. i slept on it.

this morning before i started the car i extended my max MAP for mapping parameter to 20psi, then knocked a degree off both the 90 and 100 columns. getting on it a bit this morning i hit 21psi on the way into work. the timing adjustment seems to have done the trick, so far at least.

this is WAY more boost than i could have gotten away with w/o knock before the manifold swap, btw... and the manifold is the ONLY thing that's been physically changed. same gas, approximately the same weather, and up to this morning's change of parameters no change in EMS. before folks say i'm blowing hot air, i pulled a 4.3 mafv at 6k in 2nd gear.

(btw don't worry about the consistent operating conditions for the data... i've got enough logs already, and if i need to i can revert the maps and boost.)

not surprisingly, like other VE mods it seems this one will not give you extraordinary power from just bolting it on. by my butt dyno, and eyeballing the logs' delta rpm vs. time, i figure only ~10hp. the real performance comes in tuning for it.

i will say that i'm starting to see the limitations of the internal wastegate on the poor little td04 housing... essentially i get a little boost creep when the load goes up. this may require some more fiddling with the load scale so that i have more of an overboost column to dip into when highway pulling. the little turbo ain't dead yet!

ken
ride5000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2005, 10:41 AM   #46
Division By Zero
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 7555
Join Date: Jun 2001
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Charlotte NC
Default

Ken,

Good work! I think this mod is worth while, espcially running a BIG turbo. Air in = Air out and you can't jus rely on using a big turbine housing and wheel. On the TD04L, I don't see anything wrong with taking advantage of it 's PR in the mid-range. Of course you've got to taper boost as rpms climb or you will be way over spun and blowing hot air. The problem with running mid-range boost (like 25psi @ 4500) is that the poor little thrust bearing can not handle it for long. This turbo was never designed to run like that.
Division By Zero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2005, 04:09 PM   #47
Unabomber
👏 Big Ron 👏
Moderator
 
Member#: 18062
Join Date: Apr 2002
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: I can save you a ton of cash
Vehicle:
on car parts so PM
me b4 j00 buy

Default

Nice post buddy! I linked this article in my header FAQ for those that want to do it. Ive ported manifolds myself and am intimately aware of the amount of work. I consider myself a better man that you though as I did most of my porting using grinding stones! Carbide Cutters>>>>>>>>>>Grinding Stones.
Unabomber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2005, 10:11 AM   #48
ride5000
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:
2003 GGA MBP
12.9 / 105+

Default

3/4th highway pull last night... egts were >100* cooler than before. i almost didn't believe it, so i did two pulls.

and yes, this is still running 20psi.
ride5000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2005, 10:24 AM   #49
coolcougar
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 19674
Join Date: Jun 2002
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Copenhagen
Vehicle:
2006 Baja Turbo 4EAT
Brilliant Silver Metallic

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000
egts were >100* cooler than before.
Ken,

First off thanks for going through all the trouble to document this project. I appreciate it. I do have a question about his EGT drop; I'm confused about what this signifies Does it mean your car's AFR has changed? I wouldn't think so... Since you wrapped your manifolds if anything I would expect your EGTs to increase due to the fact that you are keeping more heat in the exhaust gases... Do you have a theory?

Thanks again,
coolcougar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2005, 11:10 AM   #50
ride5000
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:
2003 GGA MBP
12.9 / 105+

Default

hey cc...

as far as i can tell from the tunerpro, the afr has not changed appreciably. in other words, not more than the usual drift of .2 or .3 afr i see day to day.

the environmental variations are also relatively small. nothing more than 10* F one way or another.

the wrapping isn't what's changing the egts.. imo, afaict, the change is more due to the relaxing of the restrictions of the oem manifold itself. similar to the way gutting cats can lower the egts at the exhaust port, making it easier to pump out the spent gasses by removing obstructions in the piping ends up doing the same thing. i think it's exactly the same result as the reduction in egts found when fitting aftermarket headers. wrapping or not wrapping shouldn't change the PORT temps much, instead it just keeps the heat IN for longer.

i was flabbergasted at the temp difference. i didn't see anything like that delta at idle, or cruise conditions... only WOT. highway pull, running 11.7:1 afr, 18-20psi, and egts were 1500. i wish i had finished my egt logger project...
ride5000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FS in IL - ported/polished/swain tech ceramic coated OEM STi exhaust manifold SilverSurfer04STi Engine/Power/Exhaust 7 09-27-2008 03:40 PM
FS in IL - ported/polished/swain tech ceramic coated OEM STi exhaust manifold SilverSurfer04STi MWSOC Private Classifieds 10 09-27-2008 03:39 PM
FS: VA Gutted/Ported/Polished/Coated OEM WRX Uppipes soobaviator Engine/Power/Exhaust 18 03-06-2007 11:35 PM
Port, Polish, Wrap Stock Manifold, what will fit 300zxls1 Factory 2.5L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.5L Turbo) 55 01-31-2006 01:36 AM

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2017 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2017, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.