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Old 04-07-2017, 10:04 PM   #1
CharlieRotten
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Default FA20DIT DAM, FBK, and FKL issues

Hello!

I recently went stage 2 on my 2017 WRX

Mods are

Catted non res mishimoto jpipe
Invida N1 single cat back
Mishimoto "race" intake w/box
Cobb AP
Protuned

So here's the deal. I am monitoring DAM, feedback knock, and fine knock learn on my AP. I know that the DAM on these cars will move around a bit but I also know that .800 is usually the lowest it should go.

I am seeing DAM as low as .200 and feedback and fine as low as -9.00

I only use 91 and have gotten gas from 3 different shell stations and one very busy grocery store station that has good quality fuel.

This only happens during normal driving and when i go WOT it shows no feedback knock or fine knock learn.

I've reset my ECU a few times and it will show DAM as 1.000 as expected but the weird thing is that it takes sometimes up to an hour of drive time before it will start pulling timing. and then sometimes it will drop to .600 and sometimes it will drop to .200 but when it does, it does it fast.

My tuner is the highest rated and most recommended tuner in my area. I contacted him and he sent me a map in which he pulled timing out on low end but it didn't help.

I'm really hoping someone on here might have experienced the same horrors I'm going through and may be able to offer some insight.

Something I have been thinking about is that my Jpipe will rub on a bracket under my car occasionally and its pretty gnarly at really low speeds like when im taking off from a stop, but when that happens it doesnt register in the fkl or fbk so maybe its unrelated but i cant help but wonder.
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Old 04-07-2017, 10:34 PM   #2
rich3389
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I would find another tuner.
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Old 04-07-2017, 10:46 PM   #3
CharlieRotten
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Originally Posted by rich3389 View Post
I would find another tuner.
idk man he seems to be a pretty well known tuner especially in the Colorado area. Harvey at The Boost Creep...
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Old 04-07-2017, 10:47 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by CharlieRotten View Post
idk man he seems to be a pretty well known tuner especially in the Colorado area. Harvey at The Boost Creep...
I think the amount that engine knocks is proof enough.
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Old 04-07-2017, 10:56 PM   #5
CharlieRotten
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rich3389 View Post
I think the amount that engine knocks is proof enough.
Well hopefully this isn't a thread killer and maybe someone who has some helpful information might chime in.
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Old 04-07-2017, 11:43 PM   #6
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I was going to say find a new tuner, then you said Harvey at The Boost Creep... Definitely highly respected, Cobb certified Gold tuner, dude definitely knows his stuff.

There could be an issue with your Mishi intake/box. I'm running the same intake with no issues but I've seen many, many people report problems with the Mishi intakes.

What do you mean by pull timing? Knock? When does it knock and how much timing is being pulled? WOT or cruise?
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Old 04-07-2017, 11:44 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rich3389 View Post
I think the amount that engine knocks is proof enough.
How do you know much it's knocking?
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Old 04-08-2017, 12:48 AM   #8
CharlieRotten
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlarryHoodDIT View Post
I was going to say find a new tuner, then you said Harvey at The Boost Creep... Definitely highly respected, Cobb certified Gold tuner, dude definitely knows his stuff.

There could be an issue with your Mishi intake/box. I'm running the same intake with no issues but I've seen many, many people report problems with the Mishi intakes.

What do you mean by pull timing? Knock? When does it knock and how much timing is being pulled? WOT or cruise?
I should have been more clear.
Harvey reduced the timing advance on lower rpm to try to help with the issue.
I have never shown any feedback knock correction or fine knock learn during WOT. This is all during cruise. It is at its worse in 5th and 6th gear from 45mph to 75mph. typically up to 3500 rpm. anything beyond that, I am using more than 35% throttle and feedback and fine drop to 0.

what is the issue with the intake? I feel like if its something other than false knock the tune would have taken care of it. (as far as the intake goes)

Honestly I really hope its just false knock but im not so sure because of how inconsistent it is.

also, thank you for taking the time to investigate with me. I figured I would get a lot of (sucks to suck, get *****) replies
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Old 04-08-2017, 01:29 AM   #9
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All right, well if it's not happening at wot and only happening a cruise that is a good sign. The reason it doesnt do it past 35% throttle is because that is probably where your fueling switches from open loop to closed loop.

What are your fuel trims looking like? What are you hitting for your AFR during WOT? Are you hitting peak boost?

The issue with the Mishi intake, and all oiled intake filters, is the oil can mess with your maf sensor. Your MAF sensor is hoe your car calculates the air being taken in, if thats messed up then it can wreak havoc on many things. I would expect WOT to do that too, but it may have to do with OL/CL again.
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Old 04-08-2017, 01:39 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieRotten View Post

Something I have been thinking about is that my Jpipe will rub on a bracket under my car occasionally and its pretty gnarly at really low speeds like when im taking off from a stop, but when that happens it doesnt register in the fkl or fbk so maybe its unrelated but i cant help but wonder.
Fix that first.
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Old 04-08-2017, 10:43 AM   #11
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Boost numbers are more inconsistent in 4th through 6th but I think that's purposeful. I am hitting peak boost 2nd and 3rd 90% of the time. Afr at cruise is 14.5 +/- and wot is 10-11. I will take a log of each gear cruising and wot on my way home from work today and post
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Old 04-08-2017, 11:48 AM   #12
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Fix the bracket first.

What are your fuel trims? AF Learning 1?

Ehat has Harvey said after getting back to him. Hes really the one to troubleshoot with...
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Old 04-11-2017, 03:56 PM   #13
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So i'm trying to work things out with Harvey. He wants the most up to date logs but yesterday it didn't really do a whole lot. just some -4 or less on both fbk and fkl and DAM dropped to .812 at its lowest. I wonder if the level of inconsistency in the knock detection might shed some light? Harvey is a very very very busy guy so I cant expect him to be able to pour his wealth of tuning knowledge into daily emails to me so that's why I'm posting here. I know there are a lot of very smart people on this site and I very much appreciate the input so far and hopefully more input here in the future.

as far as AF learning it was pretty satisfactory during my drive yesterday. i think it may have gone +/- 7 at one point but mostly stayed in the +/-2 range from my understanding that is pretty good. I haven't done any hard pulls recently because I don't want to break a rod or burn a bearing or whatever the newest "boxer engine weak point" is these days.

And I apologize for my lack of knowledge on EFI tuning. This is all pretty new to me coming from a muscle car background.

*edit: I also plan on putting some heat wrap in between the jpipe and the heat shield for the steering rack to try to reduce the amount of rubbing vibration that may be causing. The pipe is pushing up against the heat shield when the car is sitting and turned off so I know that its bouncing on it when the car is under load. Hopefully stacking some heat wrap on there will create a soft buffer until I can figure out a more permanent solution. I'm working with some cheap plastic ramps that lift the car a few inches at the moment until my lift is freed up.
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Old 04-12-2017, 01:41 PM   #14
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An update for anyone who is paying attention and for any future folks who may have this issue.

After my post yesterday I took a log on my way home where I experienced my symptoms at their worst.

I sent the log to my tuner and he got back to me this morning.

He has reason to suspect that the EGR is causing the issue. He asked me to bring my car to him and he would do a temporary EGR block off to test. He doesn't seem to think that the exhaust is causing a false knock reading but I am still going to attempt to alleviate that issue but wrapping the section of the Jpipe that is hitting with a very thick layer of heat wrap.

I will update again after I meet with Harvey
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Old 04-14-2017, 10:27 AM   #15
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pots your log to datazap will help us all out to see whats happening. sounds like maf could be scaled improperly or something rubbing causing excess noise.
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Old 04-14-2017, 10:34 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieRotten View Post
And I apologize for my lack of knowledge on EFI tuning. This is all pretty new to me coming from a muscle car background.
Think of all of the settings your thinking of being based off load Rpm/Gs(maf input) so if that is wrong everything goes out of whack. IE leaks maf sensor being dirty etc.. its all maf based. so if its not accurate mostly all tables are slewed incorrectly.
Its pretty easy but just a bunch of simply things going on at once.
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Old 04-14-2017, 11:02 AM   #17
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I met with the tuner yesterday and he deactivated my EGR and nothing changed. Hopefully I can get the exhaust rattle isolated and fixed Sunday so we can rule that out.
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Old 04-14-2017, 09:50 PM   #18
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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing (general cruising)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing (more general cruising)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing (quick WOT pull)


Here are some logs from today in the mean time.
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Old 05-01-2017, 04:48 PM   #19
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Been a while since the last update.

I have been seeing the tuner for the last few weeks and he thinks the issue is pre ignition.

Neither of us are really sure what to do about it.

Sometimes I think to myself if it would have been better to get the STI instead and dealt with the problems that engine has, but I guess limited performance is much better than a blown engine.

I think we are pretty much at a stand still until I spend some serious money and get a bigger intercooler and go corn.
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Old 05-01-2017, 05:10 PM   #20
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DON T EVER SAY THAT AGAIN! lol
the DIT engine is perfectly fine just temperamental.

Is you ac off on these past logs?

2.81 can be caused by ac compressor all day.
but being that it is in one load range .50 ish as seen in your log
id say its a ignition timing issue. either less aggressive avcs or less aggressive timing.

1800/ .5 - 1 load range needs timing pulled on the table.


Do us a flavor and log your AVCS intake and exhaust too.

and put then im datazap and link us its better for the eyes.

and when you experience the FKL number pop up hold the pedal there and if it brackets back up to 0 it is a historical knock event. if it ratchets down more. it is actually knocking. the goal is to keep the engine in the load range its seeing knock to erase the knock event over time.

OR you can reset the ecu lol. itll reset the learning. If its light throttle knock i suggest telling your tuner to fine tune the maf more ge tthat learning under 2. seeing the learning in the numbers it is in. Seems like its just timing since the AF ratio is normal.
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Old 05-01-2017, 05:18 PM   #21
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when you reset the ecu. Start logging from there.

Log dynamic advance as well

you can map this and see where the ecu thinks the timing is too advanced.

ensure you pay attention to when it happens try and notice the load range it happens in and RPM. that's how the tables are displayed and edited. any logging after the first knock event will be historical and not useful to diagnosis unless the Knock value ratchets more negative its not knocking. seems like since its knocking to a specific point and stopping its ignition related.

I would pull a degree of timing in the load range where you FIRST see knock not the historical data. reset ecu drive and as soon as it knocks stop the log.

AFR
Af learned
Af corr
dynamic advance
DAM
Ign timing
intake temp
intake post intercooler
coolant temp
oil temp
throttle position
avcs intake and exhaust pick a side L/R just log int and exh

those will help diagnose whether its tip in knock
or temp related. also might be oil related. <-- google LSPI oil

and ask them if they adjusted start of ignition.
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Old 05-01-2017, 05:25 PM   #22
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looking back on my logs and my experience with MAF scaling on the FA20dit.

Rescale the Maf Zeroing out the learning values for AF1 learning global and af1 idle.
scale it down until AF corr gets below 2-4%. then turn af learning back to oem spec 40something.
your problems will probably vanish.

then fiddle with timing if it still happens.
your learning values should be lower then they are. itll take probably 3-4 more revisions to fine tune the maf.

thats all i got
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Old 05-01-2017, 05:26 PM   #23
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and non idle learning as well just all learning turn that **** off untill you get it scaled perfectly or close to perfect.
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Old 05-02-2017, 11:55 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by spitman1 View Post

and when you experience the FKL number pop up hold the pedal there and if it brackets back up to 0 it is a historical knock event. if it ratchets down more. it is actually knocking. the goal is to keep the engine in the load range its seeing knock to erase the knock event over time..
if I hold the pedal down at that position, it will just hold the number. FKL will not increase or decrease it just sits at whatever number.

I don't know enough about EFI tuning to do anything myself about this but maybe i'll pass this on to my tuner?

Sorry, its going to take me a while to research everything you said to understand what you are saying haha but I really appreciate the input.
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Old 05-03-2017, 07:08 AM   #25
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It's all good man. I'd have your tuner scale the maf further. And go from there. The gas pedal piece is a technique I learned from doing it. There's a lot of behind the curtain math going on for knock. It's nothing negative. Just more sensitive and proactive. Definitely don't see this as a negative thing for "o I should have gotten an sti". Just takes time to get a good tune.
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