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Old 04-30-2015, 04:49 AM   #1
KornShaDoW097
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Default Aquamist fuel compatibility and mix etc

Can this pump handle e82 mixed with water? (Methanol is harder to come by and ethanol has a better BTU anyway and cools the intake too... Hopefully the extra 18% gas wont take away from the system performance..)

I plan on using a higher water content. Maybe 55/45 or 60/40 so my AFR doesnt get too rich but i get a little IAT temp reduction and more importantly in cylinder detonation resistance and all the benefits of the water plus more ethanol.

I am tired of e85 so I'll use e75 with this setup since I've had great experience with e75 in the past over e82 (SOCAL stations dont have real e85)

I'd use e98 but I have no idea where to find a local refinery or dealer in So Cal...

Also if anyone has a e82 volume/weight calculator for mixing e82 with water at the ratios I need. (I'll look when I can if Not)

Thanks in advance!

Jon
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Old 04-30-2015, 01:01 PM   #2
Aquamist
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definitely not.
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Old 04-30-2015, 11:23 PM   #3
KornShaDoW097
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So this kit handles methanol but not ethanol? I thought methanol was a more corrosive substance than ethanol?...

I notice your kits online all say "all materials used are still 100% methanol and ethanol compatible"

Is it the gasoline mixed in?

I can get denatured alcohol instead if it is.

Thanks
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Old 05-01-2015, 02:24 AM   #4
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I think there is some confusion on my side when you mentioned e82. For me it means adding 82% methanol and 18% gasoline to the system.

The system can tolerate 100% methanol or 100% ethanol or mixed with water. Any traces of gasoline is a no no.
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Old 05-01-2015, 05:57 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamist View Post
I think there is some confusion on my side when you mentioned e82. For me it means adding 82% methanol and 18% gasoline to the system.



The system can tolerate 100% methanol or 100% ethanol or mixed with water. Any traces of gasoline is a no no.

Alright perfect. Exactly what I needed to know.


Ethanol vs methanol. Is there any info or comparison of the advantages and disadvantages of using either mixed with water in a system?

So far I know

Methanol:

Pros:
slightly faster air cooling (vs ethanol)
Lower A-F Ratio influence
Costs less

Cons:
lower BTU
More corrosive
Harder to find

Ethanol:

Pros:
Higher BTU than methanol
Easier to find
Less corrosive

Cons:
More expensive ($2 more a gallon)
Doesn't cool as fast as methanol
Influences A/F Ratio more than methanol


But wouldn't I be ok with more water and less alcohol by using ethanol instead? To compensate for the extra A/F change?

How much more of an influence does it have on A/F ? And how much of a difference in temp drop are we talking?... And as far as speed we are talking Milli seconds right?

I just feel running e75 in tank would save me gas and having my kit with e90 (10% being methanol i think is what "denatured alcohol" has) mixed with water would be like using e85 with water when the system is active.

What % of water would balance things out to be more like e85 with water injection? Ex. 60/40 Water to Alcohol?

Thanks
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Old 05-03-2015, 07:26 AM   #6
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Methanol is better for cooling
Ethanol is better for fuelling.

You can calculate the mix with the following data:

Latent heat:
- Methanol: 1109kJ/Kg
- Ethanol: 840kJ/kg
- Water: 2256kJ/kg
- Gasoline: ~350kJ/kg

Stoichiometeric:
- Methanol: 6.4:1
- Ethanol: 9:1
- Water: N/A
- Gasoline: 14.7

Do your own meth or some charts here.

Last edited by Aquamist; 05-03-2015 at 07:51 AM.
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Old 05-03-2015, 06:11 PM   #7
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Thanks.

Do you have a chart set for using ethanol blended fuels? Since in USA they mandate e10 and soon will mandate a min of e15-20...


Id like to know e75-e82 with water/meth or water/ethanol 's reactions and cooling rather than 100% gas which is not available.
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Old 05-04-2015, 03:29 PM   #8
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No, I don't. Not many asked for it.
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Old 05-05-2015, 01:03 PM   #9
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Honestly, it seems more of a hassle to run the ethanol>methanol. I would find a performance shop that possibly deals with VP or some other fueling supplier. It just seems to me that the cons of ethanol outweigh the pros of meth.
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Old 05-05-2015, 01:37 PM   #10
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every bit of information i've ever read about various alcohols has shown methanol to be the superior power adder.
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Old 05-05-2015, 06:19 PM   #11
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What cons does ethanol have that methanol outweighs?... Vp wants $11-12/gallon in 5 gallon pails for meth.
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Old 05-05-2015, 06:24 PM   #12
KornShaDoW097
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Default Aquamist fuel compatibility and mix etc

@ ride5000

Most articles out there only talk about detonation and lower IAT through heat removal with methanol's vaporization.

But the actual power seems to be from the water. I mean I run e82 so I should feel no difference when the system kicks in , but I do.

Meth has a lower btu and just cools slightly better and slightly faster... But my Intake temps really don't go down more than 2deg f in the dozens of logs I've done. Most of the time temps slowly climb at upper RPM anyway.. EGT stay pretty low... Too low (never passes 1,200f at 30psi at 500+hp)

So I'm interested in doing a 50/50 of mostly ethanol for power since cooling is not an issue anyway.
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Old 05-05-2015, 06:41 PM   #13
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I'm not talking about articles. I've read plenty in my day.

I'm taking about people using alcohol adi to make power, and for that, methanol is king.
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Old 05-06-2015, 01:46 AM   #14
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Ok... but reading and doing are different things... I've read , scientific tests, chemical analysis, forums, mechanical engineering evaluations, history, websites of several companies and I've tested ethanol in my gas tank e0,e10,25,20,30,40,50,55,60,70,75,80,82. I also mixed methanol water injection at 60/40,50/50,55/45...

But ive never tried ethanol with water. Supplemented to any ratio of gas/ethanol in tank.

All i want to know is how going backwards in BTU for a lower temp combusting fuel makes sense for power... I mean gas has the highest yet we do e85... With less btu... Then we spray methanol with even less BTU for power....

Air density is nice and lower IAT too but when did heat energy stop being part of what creates power and turbo spool?... Its a contradiction.
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Old 05-06-2015, 06:36 AM   #15
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look at the oxygen content for your answer.
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Old 05-06-2015, 10:44 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KornShaDoW097 View Post
@ ride5000

Most articles out there only talk about detonation and lower IAT through heat removal with methanol's vaporization.

But the actual power seems to be from the water. I mean I run e82 so I should feel no difference when the system kicks in , but I do.

Meth has a lower btu and just cools slightly better and slightly faster... But my Intake temps really don't go down more than 2deg f in the dozens of logs I've done. Most of the time temps slowly climb at upper RPM anyway.. EGT stay pretty low... Too low (never passes 1,200f at 30psi at 500+hp)

So I'm interested in doing a 50/50 of mostly ethanol for power since cooling is not an issue anyway.

Meth gives more power. Water has no energy, but it prevents detonation. What this means is with enough water you can advance timing and add boost and not see much increase in power - because water can't burn.

Meth adds to the releasable energy. But more of the power adding comes from it's cooling ability. Both in the induction and combustion - meth burns much cooler which leads to lower EGTs. All of which adds to power.

..or so i've heard.
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Old 05-07-2015, 04:49 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
look at the oxygen content for your answer.

I see. I have heard of that. It's similar to nitrous in the way it adds some oxygen to burn. But does the content make up for the low BTU?
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Old 05-07-2015, 05:06 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMlegacy View Post
Meth gives more power. Water has no energy, but it prevents detonation. What this means is with enough water you can advance timing and add boost and not see much increase in power - because water can't burn.

Meth adds to the releasable energy. But more of the power adding comes from it's cooling ability. Both in the induction and combustion - meth burns much cooler which leads to lower EGTs. All of which adds to power.

..or so i've heard.

I heard water expands into steam taking away a ton of heat at peak cyl pressure allowing huge boost without detonation. You DO see power indirectly due to water allowing a higher knock threshold ( due to boost/ign as u mentioned)

I heard the expansion adds torque as well as steam cleaning internals and the extra volume helps with spool since a partial steam engine has a ton of torque (think of steam engines).

When I spray meth I barely see a Intake temp reduction. EGT is low but I have always taught efficiency of a turbo engine comes from not only exhaust pressure/volume but exhaust heat as well. So it contradicts the original premises of a combustion engine. A cool burning engine would be less efficient based on traditional teachings(i agree but it is a weird contradiction).. Are they wrong?

So in the end, would a high meth to ethanol mix. Not be better than pure meth mix, to slightly increase BTU? Or does BTU really mean nothing these days due to oxygen content being of higher importance?

Since ethanol and methanol run cool why is water really even used? (Is it better to add just enough water to keep egt in check? 50/50 seems like a "starting" point )
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Old 05-07-2015, 10:18 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KornShaDoW097 View Post
I see. I have heard of that. It's similar to nitrous in the way it adds some oxygen to burn. But does the content make up for the low BTU?
by injecting a massive amount of meth and taking out gasoline.

remember the dearest thing in our engines is oxygen. being able to squirt it right into the charge itself is a huge benefit, as every molecule is one that doesn't have to be supplied by the induction system.

the chilling effect further compounds the power by increasing charge air density and increasing knock margin.
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Old 05-13-2015, 12:04 AM   #20
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huh, never really thought about the oxygen content of fuel.

Is that the deal with "oxygenated" fuels then? more oxygen to burn?
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Old 05-13-2015, 03:48 PM   #21
ride5000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by point78 View Post
huh, never really thought about the oxygen content of fuel.

Is that the deal with "oxygenated" fuels then? more oxygen to burn?
yes.

consider the tradeoffs necessary to get your engine to consume 2x the mass air flow.

then consider the tradeoffs necessary to double your injector capacity.

nitromethane "top fuel" has a stoich afr of 1.7:1
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