Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Thursday March 28, 2024
Home Forums Images WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Engine Management & Tuning

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.







* As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. 
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-06-2007, 09:15 AM   #1351
StiLimited
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 121212
Join Date: Jul 2006
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Vehicle:
2007 Sti Limited
Urban Gray Metallic

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinTR View Post
I love your car! I always thought the GN in black was the bomb, but.... yours looks incredible. Sorry hotrod, I just had to give kudos.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
StiLimited is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 12-13-2007, 10:31 PM   #1352
WRXINTX
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 96712
Join Date: Sep 2005
Default

What would be the advantage and safety of running a 50% mix of E85 and 93 octane in my 2004 Forester XT?


I am going to get a tune from Clark Turner soon..... Ported APS S/R 50 turbo.... modded STI injectors (840cc), full 3 inch exhaust, ported WRX manifolds, wrapped and painted, STI intercooler..... 98 Supra turbo fuel pump.... stock fuel lines otherwise.... possibly install Agency power fuel rails and lines....


question is, this setup on pump gas should be good for about 340-360whp, probably limited to the turbo and intercooler... and the tranny will probably bust at 310whp or so.....

so I plan on tuning for 280whp for daily mode, will I see any benefits to running E85 at this point?? more torque?? Will I run out of injector?



automatic tranny....


Thanks
RYNO

Last edited by WRXINTX; 12-13-2007 at 10:37 PM.
WRXINTX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2007, 11:12 PM   #1353
KAX
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 63292
Join Date: Jun 2004
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Warner Robins, GA
Vehicle:
2000 Subaru 2.5RS
2002 WRX powered

Default

if you lower the boost alot you might be able to use those injectors. not sure what boost levels would equate to that power level though, so I cant say for certain. My guess would be if its enough, youll be very close to maxing out the injectors.
KAX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2007, 12:16 AM   #1354
HamFist
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 2112
Join Date: Aug 2000
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Below 900ft. Mach .9
Vehicle:
2000 Impreza 2.5RS
BRP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXINTX View Post
What would be the advantage and safety of running a 50% mix of E85 and 93 octane in my 2004 Forester XT?


I am going to get a tune from Clark Turner soon..... Ported APS S/R 50 turbo.... modded STI injectors (840cc), full 3 inch exhaust, ported WRX manifolds, wrapped and painted, STI intercooler..... 98 Supra turbo fuel pump.... stock fuel lines otherwise.... possibly install Agency power fuel rails and lines....


question is, this setup on pump gas should be good for about 340-360whp, probably limited to the turbo and intercooler... and the tranny will probably bust at 310whp or so.....

so I plan on tuning for 280whp for daily mode, will I see any benefits to running E85 at this point?? more torque?? Will I run out of injector?



automatic tranny....


Thanks
RYNO
Not only could you run 11's/10's with that ON an automatic, but it would run full E85 without much trouble. PM me your phone number and I'll get you in touch with who builds autos. If you're going to go that crazy on your Forrester, do it right . Get twin fuel pumps and 1000cc injectors along with a FMIC. You don't need to limit your power with an auto. I wish I had one!
HamFist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 01:16 AM   #1355
hotrod
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 14141
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: [email protected] @ 5800 ft on 13T
Vehicle:
2002 Impreza WRX

Default

**** caution ***** It may not advisable to mix octane enhancers with E85

I just stumbled on this info and have not validated it but wanted to put the info up for people to examine and make their own judgements.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/f...ead.php?t=7690

See post #6 and following comments.
Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 12-18-2007 at 01:52 AM.
hotrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 07:52 PM   #1356
Jon [in CT]
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 2992
Join Date: Nov 2000
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Connecticut, USA
Vehicle:
02 WRX Sedan
Silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod View Post
**** caution ***** It may not advisable to mix octane enhancers with E85

I just stumbled on this info and have not validated it but wanted to put the info up for people to examine and make their own judgements.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/f...ead.php?t=7690

See post #6 and following comments.
Larry
The poster there is citing a book first published in 1944, long before MMT (active Torco ingredient) was found to suppress knock in gasoline. I do recall that the Automotive Fuels Reference Book says that TEL doesn't improve knock resistance when added to methanol, but I can't provide a precise quote because I'm currently tanning my toes in Cocoa Beach and don't have access to my library. I've never read anything (aside from the referenced post) which suggested that adding MMT to alcohol (ethanol of methanol) reduced knock resistance.
Jon [in CT] is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 09:01 PM   #1357
hotrod
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 14141
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: [email protected] @ 5800 ft on 13T
Vehicle:
2002 Impreza WRX

Default

Thanks for the input Jon, I found another oblique comment last night in a patent application, but need to do some more research on negative lead reaction. I am sure if it is valid we will find some useful references possibly in SAE papers etc.

For now it is just a "be aware" warning so folks are aware that antiknock agents are chemical blend specific and may not react as expected in new fuel blends.


Quote:
I'm currently tanning my toes in Cocoa Beach
Bummer -- tough job but someone has to do it I guess

Larry
hotrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 12:40 PM   #1358
Weedy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12340
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Lincoln, NE
Vehicle:
2002 WRX 2.5L Hybrid
WRB

Default

To clarify though if someone wanted to blend an unleaded race fuel with their E-85 to keep the octane high, instead of dilute it with regular pump fuel that is safe, correct? I am curious to this since I know a few of us out there still have to throw in a little extra pump fuel after filling up with E-85 to make the car happy. By adding the lower octane fuel you are lowering the overall octane ot the mix right? So if I wanted to add let's say 100 octane unleaded to my E-85 tank I would not be lowering that fuels knock resistance, or octane level as much as throwing in the same amount of 91. Am I on the right track here?
Weedy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 02:59 PM   #1359
hotrod
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 14141
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: [email protected] @ 5800 ft on 13T
Vehicle:
2002 Impreza WRX

Default

Yes it should be safe I have added both unleaded regular and unleaded pump premium to E85 with no problems.

Complex fuel mixtures sometimes do odd things, for example fuel mixing is why ethanol was not allowed in California for a long time. If you mixed an unleaded fuel blended with MTBE and some unleaded fuel blended with Ethanol together in the same fuel tank the evaporative emissions went way up. That was a big problem for the folks in California, so until MTBE was banned, for ground water contamination, they could not use both blending agents in the same local market.

I think the issue is mostly just due to simple dilution. Right now everyone assumes that if you add two high octane fuels together the fuel octane of the mix will be approximately the weighted average of the two. For example 2 gallons of C16 (octane ~= 120) mixed with 8 gallons of pump 91 octane will give you 96.8 octane fuel more or less. The C-16 has TEL added at a rate of 6 grams of lead per gallon.

Now take that same mixture but replace the 91 octane with E85 at 105 octane. The math formula says you should get (2x120)+(8x105) = 108 octane fuel. But since ethanol has no sensitivity to TEL all it is doing is diluting the TEL present so the C-16 now only has a concentration of 1.2 grams of lead per gallon so it will act like a low lead fuel and probably only have an octane in the low 90's so instead of getting the 108 octane high performance fuel you think you are running you are really running perhaps a 100 octane fuel. If you mix the fuel and then jack up the boost to take advantage of the extra fuel octane you think you have you will likely break something.

At least that is my best guess at the moment. E85 is usually blended with simple straight run gasoline or the local base unleaded gasoline when they prepare it at the terminal.

Larry
hotrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2008, 04:12 PM   #1360
Jaxx
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 177
Join Date: Aug 1999
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Vehicle:
The 93 W/EJ20K-sold
Subaru-less :(

Default

what ever happened with the walbro testing have they come up with a new design? or approved the old
Jaxx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2008, 02:24 AM   #1361
midnight2.5rs-t
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 126217
Join Date: Sep 2006
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Delaware,OH
Vehicle:
04 Jetta GLI
Blue

Default

has anyone tried e85 on an 02 2.5rs to see how well it does? just seeing if i can use it in my car at all.

Last edited by midnight2.5rs-t; 01-22-2008 at 11:21 PM.
midnight2.5rs-t is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2008, 06:32 PM   #1362
HamFist
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 2112
Join Date: Aug 2000
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Below 900ft. Mach .9
Vehicle:
2000 Impreza 2.5RS
BRP

Default

Watch it if you're boosted on stock injectors. The injectors get small REALLY quick.

If you're stock, just use 30% (5 gallons E85 on a full tank.) I don't know about Walbro's progress. I'm hunting down Bosch and Delphi pumps that might work, too. Walbro's work well, but I'm curious who else might have something useable. It won't be long before there's some competition for stuff like this.

My ITBs will likely need 565's or bigger, and boost isn't even part of the picture.

Last edited by HamFist; 01-22-2008 at 06:42 PM.
HamFist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2008, 02:09 AM   #1363
hotrod
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 14141
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: [email protected] @ 5800 ft on 13T
Vehicle:
2002 Impreza WRX

Default

Quote:
what ever happened with the walbro testing have they come up with a new design? or approved the old
Shoeboxrich reported back here in the thread that my pump had very little sign of wear and tear at 35,000 miles and they saw a bit more on some pumps from people that lived in more humid environments but not as significant as their testing lead them to expect.

I think they are considering an E85 pump, but have not made a decision. That is just my speculation though! It would be a big retooling expense and is not a change they would make unless they were sure there is a big enough market to support the change.

Larry
hotrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2008, 01:36 PM   #1364
AustinTR
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 156772
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The ATX - Hemi Terrorizer
Vehicle:
1987 2 Turbo Buicks
Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod View Post
Shoeboxrich reported back here in the thread that my pump had very little sign of wear and tear at 35,000 miles and they saw a bit more on some pumps from people that lived in more humid environments but not as significant as their testing lead them to expect.

I think they are considering an E85 pump, but have not made a decision. That is just my speculation though! It would be a big retooling expense and is not a change they would make unless they were sure there is a big enough market to support the change.

Larry
Yeah that is what he told they me in a an e-mail he sent me. Hopefully at some point Walbro will make some E-85 pumps. Until then my old walbro is hanging in there just fine.

This just shows how much dis-information is out there in regards to corrosion issues with E-85 FI vehicles. I'm running E-85 in an 20 year old car with no issues. I've had the fuel rail off a couple of times and have been looking for problems over these months in other areas of the system. I haven't found any
AustinTR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2008, 01:40 PM   #1365
AustinTR
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 156772
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The ATX - Hemi Terrorizer
Vehicle:
1987 2 Turbo Buicks
Black

Default

Hotrod and others:

I'm finding that colder weather, ie 40 and below will make my car run not as well. The car really seems to wake up in the warmer weather. This must have something to do with the evaporative effect of E-85. It burns so cool, I guess too much cool is too much of a good thing. I'll be changing the 160 degree stat out soon as I see that is probably one of my problems.

Anyone find their car is doing the same thing in regards to being happier in warmer weather?? This is so counter-intuitive than what I'm used to with 93 gas..LOL I used to pray for cold weather.. haha now I'd rather it be a little warmer.
AustinTR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2008, 01:55 PM   #1366
mickeyd2005
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 122595
Join Date: Aug 2006
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Vehicle:
2005 LGT Wagon
ABP

Default

Quote:
E85 (a blend of 85% fuel ethanol and 15% gasoline) is used in spark ignition engines (i.e. gasoline engines). The gasoline is added to provide good cold start and warm up performance due to ethanol's low volatility, which results in more difficulty vaporizing at cold starts.
I believe in winter, the refiners change E85 to 75% alcohol to improve cold weather performance.
mickeyd2005 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2008, 05:02 PM   #1367
hotrod
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 14141
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: [email protected] @ 5800 ft on 13T
Vehicle:
2002 Impreza WRX

Default

Quote:
I believe in winter, the refiners change E85 to 75% alcohol to improve cold weather performance.
Yes that is correct in some areas, the seasonal changes differ depending on where you are in the country.

I thought I had posted this before, but will put it in the front of the FAQ so folks can find it too!
=============

E85 fuel ethanol content seasonal changes

The recommended dates for changing E85 fuel blends are listed in a chart in the E85 handbook on page 22, which is in the "E85 Fuel Specification" tab.
The Volatility class specifications are broken down on page 10.

Volatility class 1 --- minimum ethanol 79%
Volatility class 2 --- minimum ethanol 74%
Volatility class 3 --- minimum ethanol 70%


http://www.e85fuel.com/pdf/ethanol_guidebook.pdf

As you can see each region has a different start date and recommendation for seasonal blends depending on local weather climate.

Here on the high plains east of the rockies in Colorado we run the class 1 fuel blend from mid June -- mid Sept, run class 2 fuel from mid Sept -- mid Oct and run the class 3 fuel blend from Mid Oct -- mid April, then back to the class 2 blend from mid April to mid June. In short here in Colorado near Denver we are already on the winter blend, but there is latitude in the standard, so the standard only specifies a minimum ethanol content. If it is cheaper for the fuel blender to add more he can. Ethanol content is bottom line driven by local weather conditions, and cold starting problems for local drivers just a gasoline blends are modified to give easier starting in cold weather.

In the Southern part of Texas they would never go to a class 3 blend, and in Wisconsin, they would only have the class 1 blend for about 2 months in the summer. In Florida they would be on class 1 almost all year long and in North Dakota and Wyoming and Montana, they would be on class 3 almost all year long.

Larry
hotrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2008, 05:22 PM   #1368
SubeN'Siren
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 151171
Join Date: Jun 2007
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Siren, WI
Vehicle:
02 Subaru WRX
Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinTR View Post
Hotrod and others:

I'm finding that colder weather, ie 40 and below will make my car run not as well. The car really seems to wake up in the warmer weather. This must have something to do with the evaporative effect of E-85. It burns so cool, I guess too much cool is too much of a good thing. I'll be changing the 160 degree stat out soon as I see that is probably one of my problems.

Anyone find their car is doing the same thing in regards to being happier in warmer weather?? This is so counter-intuitive than what I'm used to with 93 gas..LOL I used to pray for cold weather.. haha now I'd rather it be a little warmer.
Hotter plugs?
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hlight=pulstar
Or Hotter coils?
http://www.okadaprojects.com/usa/products_direct.htm

I was wondering the same thing about the 160 thermostats...does you're car run rough even when it gets warmed up?
SubeN'Siren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2008, 06:03 PM   #1369
hotrod
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 14141
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: [email protected] @ 5800 ft on 13T
Vehicle:
2002 Impreza WRX

Default

It was my experience that in cold weather the car would not properly warm up on E85 with the 160 degree thermostat installed.

I went to a 180 and it works just fine in near zero weather now. I will probably go back to the stock 172 degree thermostat come summer time. I have also found that E85 likes a reasonable amount of intake air heat so this winter I have closed off all the cold air intake access to my air filter and force it to pull hot air from the engine compartment. It appears to have been worth a slight increase in fuel mileage and the engine is happier in cold weather before it fully warms up.

Ethanol cannot create a flammable mixture in air temps below 50 degrees F, so the intake air preheat helps fuel evaporation.

Larry
hotrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2008, 12:33 PM   #1370
kwlsti
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 58933
Join Date: Apr 2004
Chapter/Region: E. Canada
Location: Toronto, Canada
Vehicle:
2004 STI
BLACK

Default

i would like to see if the pulse spark plugs work well with E85 and if it gives back to the MPG.
any one tryed this?
kwlsti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2008, 04:20 PM   #1371
hotrod
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 14141
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: [email protected] @ 5800 ft on 13T
Vehicle:
2002 Impreza WRX

Default

Quote:
i would like to see if the pulse spark plugs work well with E85 and if it gives back to the MPG.
any one tryed this?
Yes see my post in the Pulstar plug thread --- I am running E85 and am seeing better cold start performance and a measurable increase in fuel mileage (probably near 6%).

Larry
hotrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2008, 09:49 PM   #1372
AustinTR
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 156772
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The ATX - Hemi Terrorizer
Vehicle:
1987 2 Turbo Buicks
Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod View Post
Yes see my post in the Pulstar plug thread --- I am running E85 and am seeing better cold start performance and a measurable increase in fuel mileage (probably near 6%).

Larry
Wow I was expecting that it was snake oil Larry what did you pay ( each ) for them??

Gary
AustinTR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2008, 09:08 AM   #1373
hotrod
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 14141
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: [email protected] @ 5800 ft on 13T
Vehicle:
2002 Impreza WRX

Default

Quote:
Wow I was expecting that it was snake oil Larry what did you pay ( each ) for them??
They seem to be for real. As far as cost I am running plugs provided by Nathan as part of his testing. You can see over the counter prices on the web site. They are currently showing $24.95 each which is not that much more than the other premium plugs like the iridium and platinum fine electrode plugs. The Directhits appear to have some interesting possibilities but I have not tested them. They might work for folks that want to run non-standard heat range plugs for racing etc. in cars that do not run coil on plug ignitions like the GC and GB Subaru's.

For our uses I am most impressed with the changes in cold soaked cold start on E85 in low Teens and single digit temps. On conventional plugs I would have to let the engine warm up for a minute or two before it would move the car. In very cold temps it would literally not pull the load to move the car on flat ground in low gear until the engine had a bit of heat in it (60-90 seconds of idle). On the Pulstar plugs, I can fire the engine put it in gear and drive off in 8-9 deg F temps after a 12 hour cold soak.

It will take me several more weeks to burn up 3-4 tanks of fuel under my normal driving conditions before I can give a solid mpg number but it is clear that there is a small but real increase in fuel mileage.

Larry
hotrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2008, 09:17 AM   #1374
RP31
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 123574
Join Date: Aug 2006
Vehicle:
2005 STi
CGM

Default

I may have to pick up a set of those... Did you have to adjust your timing?
RP31 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2008, 03:24 PM   #1375
kwlsti
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 58933
Join Date: Apr 2004
Chapter/Region: E. Canada
Location: Toronto, Canada
Vehicle:
2004 STI
BLACK

Default

so lets say you have a 04 STi GT car and you run a gt 35r-ts at 30 psi and am using my own E-85, would you still recommend them Larry?
kwlsti is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What do you need to do to use E85 fuel? wantsti Rocky Mountains Impreza Club Forum -- RMIC 37 02-20-2014 01:27 AM
E85 fueling question- 850cc + fpgreen...adjustable FPR? Blown95ImpalaSS Factory 2.5L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.5L Turbo) 5 09-29-2009 07:37 PM
E85-Fueled Z06, 30th Anniversary Corvettes to Pace ‘08 Indy 500 AVANTI R5 Non-Subaru News & Rumors 0 12-27-2007 01:56 PM
E85 fuel available now in Arvada 9/22/06 hotrod Rocky Mountains Impreza Club Forum -- RMIC 9 09-25-2006 02:29 PM
E85 Fuel in Austin? When? dromango Texas Impreza Club Forum -- TXIC 8 06-29-2006 01:32 PM

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2024 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2019, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.

As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.

When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission
Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.