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Old 04-04-2022, 02:43 PM   #301
dwf137
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Originally Posted by Beanboy View Post
Very different final product.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO View Post
Still won't be AWD with diffs and a more functional DD body with the 4 doors all people crave and need.
for sure. Not in disagreement there. But I'm cross shopping them for my next performance car. I have a family of 4, and the kids will fit just fine in the back of either for the very occasional situation that I'd need to cart them around in the third car. At the end of the day all I really care about is the smile on my face. AWD would be nice in the wet winters here, but I've never owned rwd and I kinda want to give it a go, but I crave that extra power. Can't jump to Z or supra because I want those 2 back seats. I'm still a few years out from wanting to buy anything, so I'll just wait and let the dust settle a bit... Just posting up my rando thoughts to stir the pot a little...
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Old 04-04-2022, 03:15 PM   #302
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I'll let someone with more dollars than sense take the hit so they can pretend to be some crafty douchebag speculator sitting on a gold mine.



Tastes like Corrrollla!


no offense to the crafty douchebags in this thread
coRRRRolla!!!

anyway, the thing I find comical is that a lot of people who you could find in the WRX and STI threads late last year, and into this year, who were complaining that the 310hp from the outgoing STI wasn't enough, they are the same ones clicking like on every youtube video about the GRC today, and salivating at the mouth for this car.

fickle.

and also, I laugh heartily when I read in the WRX thread about people screaming about a 6100rpm redline in the WRX, yet, I can comb this thread and not a peep about the 6500rpm redline in this GRC. again, same crowd. is 400rpm difference really where the line in the sand is drawn?

NASIOC gonna NASIOC.
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Old 04-04-2022, 03:22 PM   #303
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coRRRRolla!!!

anyway, the thing I find comical is that a lot of people who you could find in the WRX and STI threads late last year, and into this year, who were complaining that the 310hp from the outgoing STI wasn't enough, they are the same ones clicking like on every youtube video about the GRC today, and salivating at the mouth for this car.

fickle.

and also, I laugh heartily when I read in the WRX thread about people screaming about a 6100rpm redline in the WRX, yet, I can comb this thread and not a peep about the 6500rpm redline in this GRC. again, same crowd. is 400rpm difference really where the line in the sand is drawn?

NASIOC gonna NASIOC.
People only complained about the STI power because of the large drivetrain losses and curb weight. And you know it.
And, yes, 400 RPM means shifting twice to hit 60 or only once. Then, again, you know this.
More importantly, 400 RPM can be just what is needed to avoid falling out of the power band after grabbing the next gear.
You know all of the above.
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Old 04-04-2022, 03:24 PM   #304
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maybe people who have driven 3 WRXs in the past see nothing but the ugliest WRX ever made with phoned in specs and a lifted ride height. While toyota who just made the most exciting and trilling driving car in the GR Yaris gave us all the same goods, or close enough that there is no real difference, in a larger more usable package that looks like a homologation special rally car for a tarmac stage.

Oh and that same company has been building reliable cars for decades where Subaru has not been able to solve the HP/reliability question with quite so much verve.

1.6L making 300 HP given to the hands of the public shows quite a bit of technical chops and quite frankly bravery.

Without even driving it, I would bet my last dollar the GR Corolla will be more fun to drive than the last STI. It will feel alive and nimble and tossable. Brakes will probably be more reassuring as well.

Time has moved on since 2005, when the STI actually mattered. The new Corolla may make the same HP, but the way a car makes HP is far more important than how much it makes.
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Old 04-04-2022, 03:28 PM   #305
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The STI only makes 310 hp when it has 93+ gas in the tank, when it's not too hot out and basically whenever it feels like it. Nobody ain't got time for that.
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Old 04-04-2022, 03:30 PM   #306
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The STI is dead and for all intents and purposes so is the WRX now that it's a neutered crossover sedan. They are no longer relevant today as the competition for this car is the Golf R and maybe the Civic Type R if you are okay with FWD.
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Old 04-04-2022, 03:53 PM   #307
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People only complained about the STI power because of the large drivetrain losses and curb weight. And you know it.
And, yes, 400 RPM means shifting twice to hit 60 or only once. Then, again, you know this.
More importantly, 400 RPM can be just what is needed to avoid falling out of the power band after grabbing the next gear.
You know all of the above.
STI and GRC weight aren't much different there, unless you were getting the leather and sunroof edition STI, then there's extra weight to haul around.

drivetrain losses, do you have any insight on the GRC? from what I read on the GRY, all I can find is an 'assumed' 15% loss. vs a STI is well known to be about 25%. maybe there's something in that, maybe not, it'll have to be one of those we'll see things.

watch they GRY videos, it takes 3 shifts for 60. in real world, even in track world, whether there are 2 shifts or 3 to get to 60 doesn't matter.

at a track day, I am lumbering out of the pits, and somewhere on my out lap I am putting my foot to the floor. 0-60 not found.

at an auto cross, sure I am accelerating from a stop, but usually, once I hit second gear that's where the shifter stays until I cross the timing lights. 0-60 not found.

are people doing streetlight racing, and maybe that's where the 0-60 matters? 0-60 is a somewhat useful metric for getting an idea of how quick a car is, but is devoid of any real world 1:1 translation. I do apologize if the only metric by which you judge your vehicle is 0-60 and number of shifts to get there, your opinion matters too.

anyway, redline isn't the only thing anyone should consider. the WRX will have a shorter FD (4.111 vs 3.95) but the GRC will have shorter gears. it puts them pretty close in there.

then the WRX has max torque available from 2000-5200. the GRC has max torque from 3000-4600.

the WRX having a wider torque band means it'll be easier to drive, and the GRC will need to be wrung just a bit more to get the most out of it.

at the end of it, this is all paper maths, and none of it will matter till people are behind the wheels of the things.
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Old 04-04-2022, 04:21 PM   #308
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Corolla G16 has 7k redline, up from non-existent. WRX went from 6700 to 6100, which was just one con (the size of which is debatable) among too many. Agree though that in the end, the redline stuff doesn't matter so much on it's own, it's the overall experience - which it does feed into.

I think expectations were too high for the STI's power, but I think people would have mostly shut up and handed the money over if it ended up with ~320hp, awesome 2.4 DIT torque and looked a lot better than the WRX. Guess we'll never know. *edit* reading what I typed out here made me sad

Also should be mentioned that if Subaru did a hatch version of this WRX there would probably be a LOT more fans of it around here right now. I mean, people had been asking for a turbo crosstrek forever. Nobody asked for a turbo crosstrek sedan.
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Old 04-04-2022, 04:44 PM   #309
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People only complained about the STI power because of the large drivetrain losses and curb weight. And you know it.
And, yes, 400 RPM means shifting twice to hit 60 or only once. Then, again, you know this.
More importantly, 400 RPM can be just what is needed to avoid falling out of the power band after grabbing the next gear.
You know all of the above.
And yet he, nor much anyone else is even mentioning a couple of added technical details. One, the GRC has available front and rear Torsen LSD's. Does the WRX offer that? Two, the GRC has an AWD system, much like the GKN Twinster, with the modes available to swap between 60/40, 50/50 and 30/70, does the WRX offer that? Does Subaru offer that on anything they make? Three can you get a 5 door WRX in the US? The G16 has both direct and port injection. D4S. Can you get both injection types on the WRX? The answer is NO to all. The GRC doesn't have a 6100 RPM redline either.

Then we have all the driving reviews of the GRY to go by. You boobers, journalists, owners. Universal praise about the chassis, the engine, the drivetrain (unless base with no LSD's), the brakes, the steering. Nobody is complaining about power because 2004 and 2022 EPA regs/emissions are NOT THE SAME. Hell give me the lower 268 HP GR Yaris. I'll take that over the GRC or anything else made on this planet right now. Power is NOT EVERYTHING. A vehicle is a sum of its' parts. Power is just one single thing and we've already seen what the G16 is capable of in the aftermarket. IDGAF about 0-60 mph stats. That's for highway pullers, internet stat humpers, and mouf breathers. I care about mid range power myself because that's where I ride/drive my vehicles on twisty roads or track.

This is not the WRX thread, nor a Subaru thread. Those with those massive problems need to go to another thread, or get some psychiatric help as it seems a widespread problem here. It's tiresome and one thread already got locked because of it. Pickings are slim now with models being discontinued. One manu got it right another got it wrong. One said, let's make something cool and give the USDM something worthy. The other phoned it in with a crossover vehicle tactic. Let them both enjoy their spoils. They made the decisions and called the shots, not the enthusiast market.
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Old 04-04-2022, 04:52 PM   #310
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STI and GRC weight aren't much different there, unless you were getting the leather and sunroof edition STI, then there's extra weight to haul around.

drivetrain losses, do you have any insight on the GRC? from what I read on the GRY, all I can find is an 'assumed' 15% loss. vs a STI is well known to be about 25%. maybe there's something in that, maybe not, it'll have to be one of those we'll see things.

watch they GRY videos, it takes 3 shifts for 60. in real world, even in track world, whether there are 2 shifts or 3 to get to 60 doesn't matter.

at a track day, I am lumbering out of the pits, and somewhere on my out lap I am putting my foot to the floor. 0-60 not found.

at an auto cross, sure I am accelerating from a stop, but usually, once I hit second gear that's where the shifter stays until I cross the timing lights. 0-60 not found.

are people doing streetlight racing, and maybe that's where the 0-60 matters? 0-60 is a somewhat useful metric for getting an idea of how quick a car is, but is devoid of any real world 1:1 translation. I do apologize if the only metric by which you judge your vehicle is 0-60 and number of shifts to get there, your opinion matters too.

anyway, redline isn't the only thing anyone should consider. the WRX will have a shorter FD (4.111 vs 3.95) but the GRC will have shorter gears. it puts them pretty close in there.

then the WRX has max torque available from 2000-5200. the GRC has max torque from 3000-4600.

the WRX having a wider torque band means it'll be easier to drive, and the GRC will need to be wrung just a bit more to get the most out of it.

at the end of it, this is all paper maths, and none of it will matter till people are behind the wheels of the things.
I meant to type that 400 RPM "can" or "might" be the difference between shifting twice or once.
But, I don't care either way, just pointing out that a tiny bit more rev range can help.
It's like you said, nobody launches at track day and I have NEVER launched my 06 WRX, anywhere, in nearly 14 years of ownership.
So, it shows you how much I care about the 0-60 metric.
I'm more concerned about shifting to redline and then falling off the power band.
That's where some extra RPMs are appreciated; I haven't driven the new WRX yet, but despite the wide torque band on paper, some reviewers felt like power wasn't all there until 3K or so (some reviewers talked about the car feeling sluggish near the bottom of 2nd gear).
Granted it could be even worse with the GRC, who knows.
We know drivetrain losses through the STI drivetrain are high (25% seems fair) since it has a proper center diff and we know the GRC doesn't have a center diff (transfer case + a clutch pack instead), that has to be a good bit lower losses, I'd think 20% is fair too.
Either that leaves more power at the wheels of the GRX with less weight to carry around.
Granted, STI/WRX are larger, more practical vehicles.
But, I said before, Subaru had ample opportunity to rework the STI drivetrain to lower losses and they also had ample opportunity to improve upon EJ257, FA20DIT or FA24DIT or whichever engine they need to come up with.
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Old 04-04-2022, 04:55 PM   #311
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I never thought I would see the day that Toyota started looking like a legitimate car enthusiast brand. We will soon have three really good performance cars out of Toyota starting with the GR 86, the Corolla Gr and topping out with the Supra. It has been a long time since Toyota has had three solid enthusiast cars in their lineup if ever. At times the Supra and MR2 overlapped but most versions of the Supra to me were not that serious. Then there was the brief time of the Celica all wheel drive Turbo. I don:t remember much about those other than they existed in the U.S. I don:t know if I have seen a 1980s Celica of any form in years though much less the all wheel drive performance version.
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Old 04-04-2022, 04:55 PM   #312
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I seriously have to ask, why does everyone think this has a 6,500rpm redline? Every single dash picture or on video shows redline is at 7,000rpm. The redline approach indication begins at 6,500 and is in orange on the dash, while Redline is indicated at 7,000 in guess what color... red.

Also the GRY also has a 7,000rpm redline.

Max power is listed at 6,500rpm, with an extra 500rpm on top to rev out a bit more.
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Old 04-04-2022, 04:58 PM   #313
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I never thought I would see the day that Toyota started looking like a legitimate car enthusiast brand. We will soon have three really good performance cars out of Toyota starting with the GR 86, the Corolla Gr and topping out with the Supra. It has been a long time since Toyota has had three solid enthusiast cars in their lineup if ever. At times the Supra and MR2 overlapped but most versions of the Supra to me were not that serious. Then there was the brief time of the Celica all wheel drive Turbo. I don:t remember much about those other than they existed in the U.S. I don:t know if I have seen a 1980s Celica of any form in years though much less the all wheel drive performance version.

Toyota builds some pretty sweet 4x4s too. 4Runner, Tacoma, Tundra, LC, etc.
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Old 04-04-2022, 05:00 PM   #314
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I seriously have to ask, why does everyone think this has a 6,500rpm redline? Every single dash picture or on video shows redline is at 7,000rpm. The redline approach indication begins at 6,500 and is in orange on the dash, while Redline is indicated at 7,000 in guess what color... red.

Also the GRY also has a 7,000rpm redline.

Max power is listed at 6,500rpm, with an extra 500rpm on top to rev out a bit more.

Please don't discuss facts here. They are absolutely irrelevant to Randy's and Karen's throwing toys out the cribs.
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Old 04-04-2022, 05:00 PM   #315
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I think expectations were too high for the STI's power, but I think people would have mostly shut up and handed the money over if it ended up with ~320hp, awesome 2.4 DIT torque and looked a lot better than the WRX. Guess we'll never know. *edit* reading what I typed out here made me sad.
My standards were even lower. I would have bought the new STI irrespective of looks, power, whatever. SGP chassis and FA24 were my only requirements. I'm so upset they canceled the STI. It was with SADNESS that I placed that reservation deposit for the GR Corolla.
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Old 04-04-2022, 05:11 PM   #316
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Corolla G16 has 7k redline, up from non-existent. WRX went from 6700 to 6100, which was just one con (the size of which is debatable) among too many. Agree though that in the end, the redline stuff doesn't matter so much on it's own, it's the overall experience - which it does feed into.

I think expectations were too high for the STI's power, but I think people would have mostly shut up and handed the money over if it ended up with ~320hp, awesome 2.4 DIT torque and looked a lot better than the WRX. Guess we'll never know. *edit* reading what I typed out here made me sad

Also should be mentioned that if Subaru did a hatch version of this WRX there would probably be a LOT more fans of it around here right now. I mean, people had been asking for a turbo crosstrek forever. Nobody asked for a turbo crosstrek sedan.
anything I see for the GRC says 6500 for max HP, so maybe fuel cut doesn't hit until 7000. I'm sure Subaru engineers could have set fuel cut for the 2.4 at a higher number, and maybe some spreadsheet racer would find it worthy at that point.

yeah, at the end of the day, I had a WRX wagon once upon a time, I put my money where my mouth was when the STI was offered as a hatch, I didn't enjoy the sedan life, I love the BRZ life (wish it was a liftgate though).

this car has my full attention. fun to drive, 4 doors, and a liftgate = happy samagon.
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Old 04-04-2022, 05:25 PM   #317
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Toyota builds some pretty sweet 4x4s too. 4Runner, Tacoma, Tundra, LC, etc.
I have to admit I am a car snob so anything that can have a truck bed is just mostly of no interest. I know there is a world of Truck enthusiasts but they are kind of automotive marshians to me. I admit I have see SUVs and Trucks that I like the look of but in 30 years of Car buying and ownership have never owned one. If I lived a lifestyle that required such machinery i would buy one as a tool but my passion are machines that have some degree of a direct connection to driving around a paved race course with left and right turns as fast as possible. If it also happens to have the ability to use it as a somewhat practical car every day, then it is my kind of car. So for me the ideal is 4 doors and a trunk or hatch, I am not adamant either way. So the Corolla GR is a real sweet spot car for me. I was open to the new WRX but it just is not doing it for me.

I am so demented, that given the choice side by side of a brand new Toyota 4X4 or and minty Alfa Romeo Spyder as my car to drive away I would take the Alfa every time unless you told me I had to live in rural Candada or some place akin with potential temperatures in the range of -40. You can even substitute more punishing choices like an MGB or god for bid a lot of other British Sports cars that rust as fast as they break down.

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Old 04-04-2022, 05:38 PM   #318
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My standards were even lower. I would have bought the new STI irrespective of looks, power, whatever. SGP chassis and FA24 were my only requirements. I'm so upset they canceled the STI. It was with SADNESS that I placed that reservation deposit for the GR Corolla.
Then buy the new WRX
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Old 04-04-2022, 05:43 PM   #319
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Then buy the new WRX
No LSDs, no STI tranny, brakes, etc... GRC does the STI things that the WRX doesn't.

edit - I see how my post was confusing. I was talking about my low expectations for the new STI in comparison to the VA chassis.
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Old 04-04-2022, 05:57 PM   #320
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goalposts all over the place.

anyway, I'm shocked a dealer is willing to take a deposit yet, but I confess I haven't tried.

I'm going to wait till November to start looking. maybe I can get a holiday discount, if they aren't selling as well as expected, or maybe I have to put in a deposit and wait till summer 2023. the uncertainty is part of the excitement.
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Old 04-04-2022, 06:19 PM   #321
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What kind of loss are we lookin' at if someone buys a Core GR Corolla, fully loaded, but then has the option to trade it in for a Circuit Edition several months later? Because I can see plenty of people doing that as well.
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Old 04-04-2022, 07:16 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by kayen View Post
I seriously have to ask, why does everyone think this has a 6,500rpm redline? Every single dash picture or on video shows redline is at 7,000rpm. The redline approach indication begins at 6,500 and is in orange on the dash, while Redline is indicated at 7,000 in guess what color... red.

Also the GRY also has a 7,000rpm redline.

Max power is listed at 6,500rpm, with an extra 500rpm on top to rev out a bit more.

I completely missed that. Good catch.


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Old 04-04-2022, 07:40 PM   #323
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I didn't notice either, but it's there clear as day.
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Old 04-04-2022, 08:12 PM   #324
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What kind of loss are we lookin' at if someone buys a Core GR Corolla, fully loaded, but then has the option to trade it in for a Circuit Edition several months later? Because I can see plenty of people doing that as well.

You still don't understand what is going on.
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Old 04-04-2022, 08:39 PM   #325
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Meh.. Toyota will be releasing a different hot version every year with the diffs. Stop acting like this is a rare vehicle.


Open Diff GRY vs 2021 STI compared by Subaru WRC driver Chris Atkinston:


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