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Old 01-06-2017, 11:20 AM   #26
mishapopa
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We're trying to figure out what that stupid **** is. I have an idea, but speculation is detrimental to progress. And yeah, these engines seem pretty solid.
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Old 01-06-2017, 11:25 AM   #27
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fwiw MAP also has their own OTS maps.
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Old 01-06-2017, 11:30 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anjuna View Post
THE FA20DIT IS JUST AS RELIABLE AS ANY OTHER SUBARU MOTOR.

I'D SAY ITS MORE RELIABLE THAN A EJ257 BUT LESS RELIABLE THAN A EJ207.

IT'S THE PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING STUPID **** THAT BLOW THEM UP.

STOP FEAR MONGERING.

ffs, I did some of the same **** that a lot of people do on here with the exception that I knew what I was doing and never pushed for peak power.

There becomes a point where you gain 5hp for a 200% increase in chance of failure.
Don't you understand this is the actual goal of this poll? To prove to people the engine is reliable. If you look at the data already gathered. There is a ~1% failure rate. This isn't fear mongering. This is proving a point with REAL data. What else could you ask for?


Quick Update:

I've modified the poll.

Stock - No Accessport

Cobb - Added an OTS tune option.
Please select OTS or Protune depending on what type of Cobb tune you have.

I've also changed all Cobb OTS entries to reflect Tuner : Cobb and Tune Type : OTS. Moving forward please follow the above guidelines in how you select your tuner and tune.

Last edited by Boggie1688; 01-06-2017 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 01-06-2017, 11:33 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
fwiw MAP also has their own OTS maps.
I don't know if I filled out my data properly honestly. I don't know whether my tune is considered OTS or a protune. To my understanding, they (MAP) provide their pro-tune to people running their stage 2 kit. The only options were E-tune and Protune when I was filling the survey sooo...

Please change if required.
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Old 01-06-2017, 11:37 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
fwiw MAP also has their own OTS maps.
The change has been made to allow the selection of OTS.

Unfortunately, we'll just need people to be diligent enough to return and update their information to include whether or not they have the MAP OTS or E-Tune.

I've added a question that asks whether or not their are updating a previous submission. This flags me to check for previous usernames and delete old entries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mishapopa View Post
I don't know if I filled out my data properly honestly. I don't know whether my tune is considered OTS or a protune. To my understanding, they (MAP) provide their pro-tune to people running their stage 2 kit. The only options were E-tune and Protune when I was filling the survey sooo...

Please change if required.
Please resubmit. I'll catch it when I go back and review the entries later.
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Old 01-06-2017, 11:58 AM   #31
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Fantastic thread! Excited to see so little failure thus far. Curious to see where the data goes as more people fill it out!
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Old 01-06-2017, 12:21 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mishapopa View Post
I don't know if I filled out my data properly honestly. I don't know whether my tune is considered OTS or a protune. To my understanding, they (MAP) provide their pro-tune to people running their stage 2 kit. The only options were E-tune and Protune when I was filling the survey sooo...

Please change if required.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boggie1688 View Post
The change has been made to allow the selection of OTS.

Unfortunately, we'll just need people to be diligent enough to return and update their information to include whether or not they have the MAP OTS or E-Tune.

I've added a question that asks whether or not their are updating a previous submission. This flags me to check for previous usernames and delete old entries.



Please resubmit. I'll catch it when I go back and review the entries later.
Thanks for the changes OP. Nice work. Looking forward to seeing some info.

Sticky this thread big Ron!!

Last edited by Bishop; 01-06-2017 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 01-06-2017, 12:59 PM   #33
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I don't think this technique will give us much information, as we don't have real data.. J-pipe.. there are some many brands.. catted.. not catted.. weather.. where those parts put on correctly? did the car already have any issues.. when was the last time you changed your oil.. I think the Tune, Quality of Parts installed and the install process.. when they got installed.. how stupid do you drive? How often do you do WOT or do logs? I see some people on here claim to do logs pretty much daily, well that extra going to 7k+ everyday might do it.

BTW when I go to the track and beat the hell out of my car, I put new oil in before the track, and drain it after my track weekend and start out fresh. The more you push your car the more maintenance you have to do. I think many people doing so get that fact. A full day or two of WOT for prolonged times will degrade your oil faster than just normal everyday driving (so if you do drive extra hard, just change your oil sooner).. Check for boost leaks, boost creep, irregularities in your tune, etc.. fix it before it breaks for real. There was one guy here said his engine went pop and he was 2 quarts low on oil!! and others who had issues and insisted on going stage 2 from stock already knowing they had issues.. so yeah half the prob. is in the seat!
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Old 01-06-2017, 01:32 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by killadawg View Post
I don't think this technique will give us much information, as we don't have real data.. J-pipe.. there are some many brands.. catted.. not catted.. weather.. where those parts put on correctly? did the car already have any issues.. when was the last time you changed your oil.. I think the Tune, Quality of Parts installed and the install process.. when they got installed.. how stupid do you drive? How often do you do WOT or do logs? I see some people on here claim to do logs pretty much daily, well that extra going to 7k+ everyday might do it.
Well seeing how it's not a Ferrari, it's a safe assumption most people use it as a normal passenger vehicle, i.e. a daily, well at least I do, rain or shine (it's not a garage queen by any means). Realistically he can make this an hour long survey for what kind of shoes you wear, what time of day do you drive as that's gotta affect something, right? But who's got time for that. I think the data criteria is more than sufficient.

Seeing how little failure there is though, it could be nice to have a cause section. There is a thread that's got quite a few blown engines however.
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Old 01-06-2017, 01:33 PM   #35
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This thread wasnt specific enough for me, are we talking

Stock Reliable
Modified Reliable
Race Reliable
Rally Reliable
Bought New Reliable
Leased New Reliable
Car Max purchased Reliable
Private Party Sale Reliable ?
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Old 01-06-2017, 02:32 PM   #36
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Modified Reliable is really the target here, the levels vary from stock ECU with a catback to FBO.
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Old 01-06-2017, 02:36 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anjuna View Post
THE FA20DIT IS JUST AS RELIABLE AS ANY OTHER SUBARU MOTOR.

I'D SAY ITS MORE RELIABLE THAN A EJ257 BUT LESS RELIABLE THAN A EJ207.

IT'S THE PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING STUPID **** THAT BLOW THEM UP.

STOP FEAR MONGERING.


ffs, I did some of the same **** that a lot of people do on here with the exception that I knew what I was doing and never pushed for peak power.

There becomes a point where you gain 5hp for a 200% increase in chance of failure.
I miss having you around these parts.

I'll play because it is interesting enough even though I doubt we can get anything concrete-
We need to differentiate self tuning from pro/etunes and we need to call out Cobb protunes vs Cobb OTS since they offer both services

Last edited by simpleJ; 01-06-2017 at 02:44 PM.
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Old 01-06-2017, 02:41 PM   #38
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What about cats in J/I pipe? Point of interest, or doesn't matter?
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Old 01-06-2017, 02:43 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simpleJ View Post
I miss having you around these parts.
Phrasing!

I just filled it out and took a peek at the data. Looks like a pretty good sample so far. I'll be curious to see how it evolves over the next year or so.
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Old 01-06-2017, 02:50 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simpleJ View Post
I miss having you around these parts.

I'll play because it is interesting enough even though I doubt we can get anything concrete-
We need to differentiate self tuning from pro/etunes and we need to call out Cobb protunes vs Cobb OTS since they offer both services
Well when you go EJ207 and nothing ever breaks and pretty much nobody is a kiddie boy over in my playing field, I end up not posting much...

My whole point was this.

If you add a AP and yer **** blows up, that doesn't make it the AP's fault necessarily.

If you add a downpipe and yer **** blows up, that doesn't make it the J-pipe or downpipe's fault.

There are just too many cooks in the kitchen right now. People think they can install their own **** and **** it up. People think they can tune and they **** it up. People think they can DRIVE and **** up their transmission. people think THEY CAN CHANGE THEIR OWN OIL and **** it up........

This whole "poll" bull**** is just a bad case of post hoc ergo propter hoc. It's a fallacy trying to say that "because I did this, then this happened" when in fact that's not the issue.

Like literally you could have two IDENTICAL cars running IDENTICAL parts and have a failure on one because someone used the wrong weight oil. What does this poll prove? It proves that you shouldn't be a dumbass.
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Old 01-06-2017, 02:54 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anjuna View Post
Well when you go EJ207 and nothing ever breaks and pretty much nobody is a kiddie boy over in my playing field, I end up not posting much...
I really need to get a daily and a blown hawk eye to do exactly this.
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Old 01-06-2017, 02:58 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simpleJ View Post
I really need to get a daily and a blown hawk eye to do exactly this.
The other day I modified the EBCS frequency and hit 50psi map pressure (which is where my boost cut is)

Oops.

Didn't miss a beat afterward. I run 30psi on the regs with e85 and 24psi with 93.

It's been more reliable than my N/A Forester.


ALSO to make this post RELEVANT, I've added my info.
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Old 01-06-2017, 03:02 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anjuna View Post
Well when you go EJ207 and nothing ever breaks and pretty much nobody is a kiddie boy over in my playing field, I end up not posting much...

My whole point was this.

If you add a AP and yer **** blows up, that doesn't make it the AP's fault necessarily.

If you add a downpipe and yer **** blows up, that doesn't make it the J-pipe or downpipe's fault.

There are just too many cooks in the kitchen right now. People think they can install their own **** and **** it up. People think they can tune and they **** it up. People think they can DRIVE and **** up their transmission. people think THEY CAN CHANGE THEIR OWN OIL and **** it up........

This whole "poll" bull**** is just a bad case of post hoc ergo propter hoc. It's a fallacy trying to say that "because I did this, then this happened" when in fact that's not the issue.

Like literally you could have two IDENTICAL cars running IDENTICAL parts and have a failure on one because someone used the wrong weight oil. What does this poll prove? It proves that you shouldn't be a dumbass.
Exactly, Ej207 is god of Subarus.

But theres so, so, so many variables that arent counted for, theres no way to get a real accurate answer from this. You cant cheat the scientific method and expect reliable data.
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Old 01-06-2017, 03:25 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anjuna View Post
Well when you go EJ207 and nothing ever breaks and pretty much nobody is a kiddie boy over in my playing field, I end up not posting much...

My whole point was this.

If you add a AP and yer **** blows up, that doesn't make it the AP's fault necessarily.

If you add a downpipe and yer **** blows up, that doesn't make it the J-pipe or downpipe's fault.

There are just too many cooks in the kitchen right now. People think they can install their own **** and **** it up. People think they can tune and they **** it up. People think they can DRIVE and **** up their transmission. people think THEY CAN CHANGE THEIR OWN OIL and **** it up........

This whole "poll" bull**** is just a bad case of post hoc ergo propter hoc. It's a fallacy trying to say that "because I did this, then this happened" when in fact that's not the issue.

Like literally you could have two IDENTICAL cars running IDENTICAL parts and have a failure on one because someone used the wrong weight oil. What does this poll prove? It proves that you shouldn't be a dumbass.
Lol I don't disagree (in fact you're pretty bang on) BUT... if you go around calling people who blew their motors up idiots they'll be heavily discouraged from filling out the survey.

Good to see you back though, always enjoy your bluntness
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Old 01-06-2017, 04:05 PM   #45
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I just took the survey and its kinda a useless survey. The only data being gathered is tuner, mods, and whether your engine is "blown" or "running"...no questions about any issues that I would consider reliability otherwise mentioned. Hell, someone might have done a ton of mods, blown the motor twice and had it replaced free and answered "Running" since it is technically running....on the 3rd motor but the data doesn't collect that sort of thing.

My engine has the oil leak around the passenger cam carrier seal which is super-common...why not collect data on stuff like that?

Not trying to be an ass but I can't help but point out the severe flaws with that survey's questioning.
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Old 01-06-2017, 04:24 PM   #46
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I run 93 & e85.. I marked e85.. Maybe an option for both?
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Old 01-06-2017, 04:47 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gro Harlem View Post
I just took the survey and its kinda a useless survey. The only data being gathered is tuner, mods, and whether your engine is "blown" or "running"...no questions about any issues that I would consider reliability otherwise mentioned. Hell, someone might have done a ton of mods, blown the motor twice and had it replaced free and answered "Running" since it is technically running....on the 3rd motor but the data doesn't collect that sort of thing.

My engine has the oil leak around the passenger cam carrier seal which is super-common...why not collect data on stuff like that?

Not trying to be an ass but I can't help but point out the severe flaws with that survey's questioning.
Your right. I thought about this.

There are a few challenges:

I think if the poll becomes very detailed it will discourage people passing through to fill it out. We want everyone to put in their data, not just those who have problems. Besides, there is a thread here that already discusses failures in detail.

It also opens a can of worms in the sense of too many things to select from. In my opinion the tuner portion is starting to go down this route with the use of "Others" (just look at the chart for that sheet). It also dilutes the results/resolution, instead of 4 or 5 bar graphs to look at now you've got 30 or 40. The data set has to be very large to see anything of interest. Can you imagine if I asked what oil and weight you used? Or what if I broke out all after market parts by brand instead of function? The graph would literally be useless until we had hundreds of people responding.

Then the challenge consistency comes into play. Consistency is required if we want to plot that data. I just don't have the time to cull through all the data, make a judgement call, then revise the data to make it consistent. This data is organic, it will grow. My ability to fix exceptions will diminish over time especially the data set grows.

If you think the survey is pointless, I'm not forcing you to take it. But if you have a few minutes to spare and can fill it out, I think the community as a whole would appreciate it. If you feel that more detailed is required by all means create a more detailed survey and manage the results.
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Old 01-06-2017, 04:49 PM   #48
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I run 93 & e85.. I marked e85.. Maybe an option for both?
You did the right thing. Changing things around now will skew the dataset unless everyone started over. Counting for every single possible iteration would make things way to difficult.
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Old 01-06-2017, 05:30 PM   #49
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You did the right thing. Changing things around now will skew the dataset unless everyone started over. Counting for every single possible iteration would make things way to difficult.
Its probable that ever running e85 has an influence even if you don't always run it
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Old 01-06-2017, 08:37 PM   #50
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I am a noob when it comes to my Subi, but I have read and done more statistics/research that I care to admit. This is a great survey to gather initial data and make generalized conclusions. Once you have generalized data you can then look for trends and analyze them further with more specific questions. For example, on blown motors, what specific parts were used, or ask a follow up questions about how hard the car was driven on a sliding scale or a plethora of other variables like driving conditions, tune, maintainence, etc etc etc.

All you guys saying that this is worthless or not specific enough don't know what you are talking about, period. The survey is not perfect, but no research is. There is bias, design flaws, and unaccounted variables in EVERY single study ever published. The important part is that you realize that these imperfections exists and you take them into account when interpreting the research. Just because this survey says that there is less than a 1 percent failure rate with many moded cars does not mean that any one can mod the hell out of the car and drive like a crazy person then be surprised when something blows up. It just means that over all the FA20DIT seems to be reliable with many different drivers with different mods and driving styles.

From a statistical stand point a sample size of 125 is sufficient to make conclusions with a high degree of confidence.
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