|
|
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
03-27-2003, 11:56 AM | #1 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 33782
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: Milton Keynes, UK
Vehicle:96 3MI Racing search FIRST, then PM!!! |
I think Subaru should make a shorter car again for the love of rallying
Hi, I have noticed lately that Subaru hasn't been doing as well in WRC as they had in the 90's. I think that this could be do to the fact that the competition's cars are shorter/smaller. Yes Reid won in 01 but what has happened? Does anyone agree that Subaru should come out with a Two door version of the imprez/WRX/22B or maybe just make the WRX more like the compact that it was and less a mid-sized sedan? Maybe it's just me or maybe the drivers but I'm tired of watching Subaru walk away losers.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
|
03-27-2003, 12:13 PM | #2 |
GC84Ever
Super Moderator Member#: 301
Join Date: Sep 1999
Chapter/Region:
NWIC
Location: WA
Vehicle:1970 FF-1 & '70 Van 02 WRX/01 RS |
as posted in previous discussions concerning this issue...
the looks of the car can be deceptive... research the wheelbase for all the different wrc cars and you may be suprised what you learn - quick search and i found..... Citro Xsara Wheelbase: 2555 mm Ford Focus WRC Wheelbase: 2615mm Peugeot Wheelbase: 2468mm Skoda Wheelbase: 2512mm Subaru Wheelbase: 2535mm they are all pretty close... ah and... fwiw.... the 22B wheelbase was not much better Wheelbase: 2520mm Overall length: 4365mm Overall width: 1770mm Overall height: 1390mm Car weight: 1270kgs = 2799lbs!!! not a small car in any way.... reliability is a factor at times, but i see no need for a redesign... Jamie www.subiegalracing.com Last edited by Subie Gal; 03-27-2003 at 12:24 PM. |
03-27-2003, 01:13 PM | #3 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 5310
Join Date: Mar 2001
Chapter/Region:
South East
Location: Raleigh, NC
Vehicle:2013 Sonic Turbo |
Ugh, not this thread again. Thanks for nipping it in the bud, SubieGal.
|
03-27-2003, 01:13 PM | #4 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 23001
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Arlington VA
Vehicle:1999 Impreza RScoupe 2006 Legacy GT |
Quote:
WRC 2002 2nd in the Drivers Championship Thats not losing to me. Al |
|
03-27-2003, 02:41 PM | #5 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 18148
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Vehicle:'08 WRX Dark Gray |
Quote:
Agreed, the cars have reasonably similar wheelbases. However, the 206 is approx. 13" shorter than the Subie, which is pretty significant. I'm guessing (not sure on this one) the 206 is also considerably lighter than the Subie, pre-ballast. As a result, the 206 is likely a better balanced car. It would also help if the Subie drivers could keep the cars on course a bit more than last year! |
|
03-27-2003, 02:58 PM | #6 | |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 8891
Join Date: Aug 2001
Chapter/Region:
International
Location: Houston, TX
Vehicle:2002 WRX Silver '02 SV650 |
Quote:
Code:
Citro Xsara Wheelbase: 100.59" Ford Focus WRC Wheelbase: 102.95" Peugeot Wheelbase: 97.17" Skoda Wheelbase: 98.9" Subaru Wheelbase: 99.8" |
|
03-27-2003, 03:26 PM | #7 | |
GC84Ever
Super Moderator Member#: 301
Join Date: Sep 1999
Chapter/Region:
NWIC
Location: WA
Vehicle:1970 FF-1 & '70 Van 02 WRX/01 RS |
UM......
Quote:
the WRC regulation min. is 1230kg or 2711 lbs and all of the manufac. wrc cars weigh the same Subaru = Car weight 1230kgs http://www.swrt.com/35165.html Skoda = Weight (kg) 1230 http://www.skoda-auto.com/sport/team/wrc Pug = 1230 kg http://www.peugeot-avenue.com Ford = 1230 kg http://www.fordrallyesport.com/index2.asp Citroen = 1230 kg http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/cars/xsara_wrc.asp |
|
03-27-2003, 04:17 PM | #8 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 33782
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: Milton Keynes, UK
Vehicle:96 3MI Racing search FIRST, then PM!!! |
I was talking about total length not wheelbase. I should have specified that. The Subaru and Skoda are the only sedan on the championship the rest are hatchbacks and the Hyundai is well hatchback-ish. This is what I'm taliking about.
|
03-27-2003, 04:46 PM | #9 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 5310
Join Date: Mar 2001
Chapter/Region:
South East
Location: Raleigh, NC
Vehicle:2013 Sonic Turbo |
Reid won in 2001? Hmm. Not to be a jerk, but... If you want people to take your opinion seriously on this topic, you might want display even the most basic amount of knowledge of the Subaru WRC's racing history...
I've been involved in countless arguments on this subject all over the net, I'm really sick of it. The fact of the matter is that if the manufacturers felt like Peugeot was getting away with murder, they'd be complaining to the FIA. No one is even close to doing so. Peugeot is simply raising the bar, and everyone else is playing catch up. |
03-27-2003, 06:36 PM | #10 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 1303
Join Date: Apr 2000
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Westmont, IL, USA
Vehicle:2007 Not a Subaru, thank God. |
Quote:
Take two cars of the same weight. One with significant weight hung out beyond the axles and one with that weight in the center of the car. Which do you want to try and turn? The Subaru has 1880mm of its overall length outside the wheelbase compared to 1537mm for the 206. That, combined with the Pug being 10 /percent/ shorter overall ( 4415mm versus 4005 ) give the 206 a huge size advantage, and probably weight distribution, too. |
|
03-27-2003, 06:48 PM | #11 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 18148
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Vehicle:'08 WRX Dark Gray |
Quote:
Jamie, I'm aware all the cars must conform to a uniform minimum weight. However, I seem to recall hearing that most/all of the cars have to add ballast to make the minimum weight. I also recall reading rumors about ballast shifting mechanisms in some of the cars, to adjust balance while racing (pretty wild stuff!). Anyways, a car like the 206 with very short overhangs & more ballast between the wheels should have a handling advantage. -Steve |
|
03-27-2003, 06:51 PM | #12 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 18148
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Vehicle:'08 WRX Dark Gray |
Quote:
-Steve Last edited by MNbiker; 03-27-2003 at 10:36 PM. |
|
03-27-2003, 09:34 PM | #13 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 1303
Join Date: Apr 2000
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Westmont, IL, USA
Vehicle:2007 Not a Subaru, thank God. |
Not to pile on, but my sources said 4415mm overall length of the Subaru and 4005 for the Peugeot. The 410mm difference divided by 25.4 ( mm per inch ) equals 16.1 inches.
|
03-27-2003, 11:39 PM | #14 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 21847
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: New Jersey
Vehicle:2002 WRX Sedan World Rally Blue STX#555 |
Isn't the Subaru WRC based of the RA Spec C cars? And don't the Spec Cs have a slightly shorter wheelbase than our WRXes? I thought I heard this somewhere and would like to know the truth.
chris |
03-28-2003, 02:56 AM | #15 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 8938
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Seattle
Vehicle:2002 A Black Wagon |
Quote:
1880 mm = 74.0156 in = 6.17 ft 4415 mm = 173.82 in = 14.48 ft So your saying that a whopping 6 feet (40%) of the car is out side the wheel base? Your "sources" seem very interesting indeed. Even if those are correct numbers for the overhang what makes you think that the weight distribution is a direct relation? Throwing even more “wood” on the fire of its-not-the-size-but-how-you-use-it wheelbase discussions is another thread in this same forum discussing the new Ford Focus RS WRC 03. From the referenced article its specifically noted that the US SVT focus was used at the base for homologation as its longer than the UK model. That would tend to contradict your theory that short Franco wheelbases are da bomb. |
|
03-28-2003, 08:59 AM | #16 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 8585
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Ubon
Vehicle:2002 WRX Rally Blue! |
Hatch back~!!!!!
|
03-28-2003, 10:11 AM | #17 | |||||||
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 1303
Join Date: Apr 2000
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Westmont, IL, USA
Vehicle:2007 Not a Subaru, thank God. |
Quote:
Quote:
http://www.peugeot.com.hk/sport_206wrc.htm Quote:
Other interesting bits from that article; Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
And isn't a bit early to use the Focus as an example of brilliant design when it hasn't visited the podium yet? |
|||||||
03-28-2003, 10:26 AM | #18 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 5310
Join Date: Mar 2001
Chapter/Region:
South East
Location: Raleigh, NC
Vehicle:2013 Sonic Turbo |
Hopefully this conversation will eventually move on to the fact that the Peugeot has higher torque figures, which is the only genuine (sizeable) advantange I've heard from industry sources...
|
03-28-2003, 12:59 PM | #19 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 23001
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Arlington VA
Vehicle:1999 Impreza RScoupe 2006 Legacy GT |
Quote:
and I dont care if you take my opinion seriously And my knowledge of Subaru's WRC racing history comes from actualy going to a WRC event, not spending all my time on the internet arguing about fact and figures. |
|
03-28-2003, 02:36 PM | #20 | ||
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 5673
Join Date: Apr 2001
Chapter/Region:
BAIC
Location: Folsom, CA
Vehicle:05 LGT, 02 WRX Hellcat CTR LC500 GRC |
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
03-28-2003, 04:07 PM | #21 | |||
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 8938
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Seattle
Vehicle:2002 A Black Wagon |
Quote:
Quote:
You keep dancing around the only issue in regards to wheelbases and weight distribution: polar moment of inertia (pmoi). The cliff note version: The closer the weight is to the center of gravity (cg) the lower the pmoi and thus the easier the car will rotate. As stated in the Ford press brief about the new 03 Focus they moved the driver and co-driver in towards the center line of the car. Even though this move was stated as “driver safety” im sure they are not all too upset about lowering their pmoi either. Same goes for the Subaru flat four. I doubt that Prodrive it bitching and moaning too much about having an engine with a low CG. I would love to know how much Peugeot relocated that transverse four of theirs. With the amount of engineering thrown at designing a WRC car today it would be naive to assume that one team had struck a gold mine in chassis design that would not be soon followed by all the others. Peugeot came out with a great package (chassis, drive train, tires, areo, reliability) in a well sorted out car that played to their drivers strengths and it showed. If you want to look at something that seems to be in visible contention between the teems its the areo packages. Last year it was noted that Subaru had problems with oversteer which was exasperated when damage was sustained to the front splitter. Note this year with the new car the change to the chin splitter and a new wing on the back deck. Ford in its 2003 redesign admits to using a longer chassis for areo reasons and the addition of a new type of rear wing. Quote:
|
|||
04-01-2003, 10:41 AM | #22 | ||||||
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 1303
Join Date: Apr 2000
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Westmont, IL, USA
Vehicle:2007 Not a Subaru, thank God. |
Quote:
And even if it is just air, 16" of additional length affects the line the cars can take through a corner. The shorter car will always have more room in the corner to pick the best line. Quote:
Quote:
This is where the balance between short-enough, and too short comes into play. Quote:
I drive an MR2, I understand polar moments. Quote:
Quote:
The Ford is much closer to the size of the Pug than the Subaru. Why is that? |
||||||
04-01-2003, 05:02 PM | #23 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 8938
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Seattle
Vehicle:2002 A Black Wagon |
Wow.. teh switching of teh “e” and teh “h” is really annoying. Consider this a place holder for when I can read your post with out getting a headache.
so much for reading any otehr posts on nasioc today |
04-02-2003, 02:09 AM | #24 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 2272
Join Date: Sep 2000
Chapter/Region:
BAIC
Location: Fire Caves
Vehicle:2019 Macan 4cyl 1993 Impreza FWD WRX swap |
Shorter wheel bases are all nice and dandy for tarmac, but the difference is not as noticable in the rest of the rallies, where if you didnt notice the Subaru does just fine.
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
For the love of god, make these a franchise! | igotskraped | Off-Topic | 27 | 05-20-2008 04:16 PM |
1970 Subaru 360 - for the love of Subaru!! | badgerwrx | New England Impreza Club Forum -- NESIC | 22 | 12-21-2007 08:40 AM |
For the love of God, please stop making wingless STIs!!! | RightyTighty | Off-Topic | 154 | 02-25-2005 10:43 AM |
Does subaru make a specific car cover for the 98-01 RS? | WRC1 | Interior & Exterior Modification | 2 | 07-10-2004 11:52 AM |
For the love of G-D, Please update the site! | Dirt Man | General Community | 12 | 03-14-2002 09:14 PM |