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Old 03-27-2003, 11:56 AM   #1
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Default I think Subaru should make a shorter car again for the love of rallying

Hi, I have noticed lately that Subaru hasn't been doing as well in WRC as they had in the 90's. I think that this could be do to the fact that the competition's cars are shorter/smaller. Yes Reid won in 01 but what has happened? Does anyone agree that Subaru should come out with a Two door version of the imprez/WRX/22B or maybe just make the WRX more like the compact that it was and less a mid-sized sedan? Maybe it's just me or maybe the drivers but I'm tired of watching Subaru walk away losers.
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Old 03-27-2003, 12:13 PM   #2
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as posted in previous discussions concerning this issue...

the looks of the car can be deceptive...
research the wheelbase for all the different wrc cars
and you may be suprised what you learn -
quick search and i found.....

Citro Xsara Wheelbase: 2555 mm
Ford Focus WRC Wheelbase: 2615mm
Peugeot Wheelbase: 2468mm
Skoda Wheelbase: 2512mm
Subaru Wheelbase: 2535mm

they are all pretty close...

ah and... fwiw.... the 22B wheelbase was not much better
Wheelbase: 2520mm
Overall length: 4365mm
Overall width: 1770mm
Overall height: 1390mm
Car weight: 1270kgs = 2799lbs!!!

not a small car in any way....

reliability is a factor at times, but i see no need for a redesign...
Jamie www.subiegalracing.com

Last edited by Subie Gal; 03-27-2003 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 03-27-2003, 01:13 PM   #3
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Ugh, not this thread again. Thanks for nipping it in the bud, SubieGal.
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Old 03-27-2003, 01:13 PM   #4
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Quote:
I'm tired of watching Subaru walk away losers.
WRC 2001 1st in the Drivers Championship
WRC 2002 2nd in the Drivers Championship

Thats not losing to me.

Al
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Old 03-27-2003, 02:41 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Subie Gal
as posted in previous discussions concerning this issue...

the looks of the car can be deceptive...
research the wheelbase for all the different wrc cars
and you may be suprised what you learn -
quick search and i found.....

Citro Xsara Wheelbase: 2555 mm
Ford Focus WRC Wheelbase: 2615mm
Peugeot Wheelbase: 2468mm
Skoda Wheelbase: 2512mm
Subaru Wheelbase: 2535mm

they are all pretty close...
Jamie,

Agreed, the cars have reasonably similar wheelbases. However, the 206 is approx. 13" shorter than the Subie, which is pretty significant. I'm guessing (not sure on this one) the 206 is also considerably lighter than the Subie, pre-ballast. As a result, the 206 is likely a better balanced car.

It would also help if the Subie drivers could keep the cars on course a bit more than last year!
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Old 03-27-2003, 02:58 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by MNbiker
However, the 206 is approx. 13" shorter than the Subie, which is pretty significant.
Wheelbase in inches for the metrically challenged:

Code:
Citro Xsara Wheelbase: 100.59"
Ford Focus WRC Wheelbase: 102.95"
Peugeot Wheelbase: 97.17"
Skoda Wheelbase: 98.9"
Subaru Wheelbase: 99.8"
agree about keeping the rubber side down though.
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Old 03-27-2003, 03:26 PM   #7
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UM......
Quote:
I'm guessing (not sure on this one) the 206 is also considerably lighter than the Subie, pre-ballast. As a result, the 206 is likely a better balanced car
well ya guessed wrong...
the WRC regulation min. is 1230kg or 2711 lbs
and all of the manufac. wrc cars weigh the same



Subaru = Car weight 1230kgs
http://www.swrt.com/35165.html

Skoda = Weight (kg) 1230
http://www.skoda-auto.com/sport/team/wrc

Pug = 1230 kg
http://www.peugeot-avenue.com

Ford = 1230 kg
http://www.fordrallyesport.com/index2.asp

Citroen = 1230 kg
http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/cars/xsara_wrc.asp
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Old 03-27-2003, 04:17 PM   #8
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I was talking about total length not wheelbase. I should have specified that. The Subaru and Skoda are the only sedan on the championship the rest are hatchbacks and the Hyundai is well hatchback-ish. This is what I'm taliking about.
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Old 03-27-2003, 04:46 PM   #9
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Reid won in 2001? Hmm. Not to be a jerk, but... If you want people to take your opinion seriously on this topic, you might want display even the most basic amount of knowledge of the Subaru WRC's racing history...

I've been involved in countless arguments on this subject all over the net, I'm really sick of it. The fact of the matter is that if the manufacturers felt like Peugeot was getting away with murder, they'd be complaining to the FIA. No one is even close to doing so.

Peugeot is simply raising the bar, and everyone else is playing catch up.
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Old 03-27-2003, 06:36 PM   #10
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Quote:
pre-ballast
Minimum weights give little or no indication about what the cars weigh /pre-ballast/.

Take two cars of the same weight. One with significant weight hung out beyond the axles and one with that weight in the center of the car. Which do you want to try and turn?

The Subaru has 1880mm of its overall length outside the wheelbase compared to 1537mm for the 206. That, combined with the Pug being 10 /percent/ shorter overall ( 4415mm versus 4005 ) give the 206 a huge size advantage, and probably weight distribution, too.
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Old 03-27-2003, 06:48 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by hillman


Minimum weights give little or no indication about what the cars weigh /pre-ballast/.

Take two cars of the same weight. One with significant weight hung out beyond the axles and one with that weight in the center of the car. Which do you want to try and turn?

The Subaru has 1880mm of its overall length outside the wheelbase compared to 1537mm for the 206. That, combined with the Pug being 10 /percent/ shorter overall ( 4415mm versus 4005 ) give the 206 a huge size advantage, and probably weight distribution, too.
Thanks for expanding on my "pre-ballast" comment.

Jamie, I'm aware all the cars must conform to a uniform minimum weight. However, I seem to recall hearing that most/all of the cars have to add ballast to make the minimum weight. I also recall reading rumors about ballast shifting mechanisms in some of the cars, to adjust balance while racing (pretty wild stuff!). Anyways, a car like the 206 with very short overhangs & more ballast between the wheels should have a handling advantage.

-Steve
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Old 03-27-2003, 06:51 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by TyrannoSullyRex


Wheelbase in inches for the metrically challenged:

Code:
Citro Xsara Wheelbase: 100.59"
Ford Focus WRC Wheelbase: 102.95"
Peugeot Wheelbase: 97.17"
Skoda Wheelbase: 98.9"
Subaru Wheelbase: 99.8"
I was referring to overall car length, not wheelbase. The Subie is just over [EDIT] 16" [/EDIT] longer than the 206.

-Steve

Last edited by MNbiker; 03-27-2003 at 10:36 PM.
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Old 03-27-2003, 09:34 PM   #13
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Not to pile on, but my sources said 4415mm overall length of the Subaru and 4005 for the Peugeot. The 410mm difference divided by 25.4 ( mm per inch ) equals 16.1 inches.
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Old 03-27-2003, 11:39 PM   #14
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Isn't the Subaru WRC based of the RA Spec C cars? And don't the Spec Cs have a slightly shorter wheelbase than our WRXes? I thought I heard this somewhere and would like to know the truth.

chris
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Old 03-28-2003, 02:56 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by hillman
The Subaru has 1880mm of its overall length outside the wheelbase compared to 1537mm for the 206. That, combined with the Pug being 10 /percent/ shorter overall ( 4415mm versus 4005 ) give the 206 a huge size advantage, and probably weight distribution, too.
Fun with math:

1880 mm = 74.0156 in = 6.17 ft

4415 mm = 173.82 in = 14.48 ft

So your saying that a whopping 6 feet (40%) of the car is out side the wheel base? Your "sources" seem very interesting indeed. Even if those are correct numbers for the overhang what makes you think that the weight distribution is a direct relation?

Throwing even more “wood” on the fire of its-not-the-size-but-how-you-use-it wheelbase discussions is another thread in this same forum discussing the new Ford Focus RS WRC 03. From the referenced article its specifically noted that the US SVT focus was used at the base for homologation as its longer than the UK model. That would tend to contradict your theory that short Franco wheelbases are da bomb.
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Old 03-28-2003, 08:59 AM   #16
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Hatch back~!!!!!
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Old 03-28-2003, 10:11 AM   #17
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Quote:
Even if those are correct numbers for the overhang what makes you think that the weight distribution is a direct relation?
I doubt seriously the relationship is direct, and never said it was.

Quote:
Your "sources" seem very interesting indeed.
http://www.swrt.com/35165.html
http://www.peugeot.com.hk/sport_206wrc.htm

Quote:
From the referenced article its specifically noted that the US SVT focus was used at the base for homologation as its longer than the UK model. That would tend to contradict your theory that short Franco wheelbases are da bomb.
It is almost certainly possible to be too short, as well. That said, both the Ford and the Citroen are substantially shorter than the Subaru. ( 4152mm, 4168, and 4415 respectively. )

Other interesting bits from that article;

Quote:
combined with a stem-to-stern drive to save weight and improve weight distribution
Quote:
Ford isn't specifying the weight distribution, but Loriaux said that he had met his objectives and that ballast will be used. The total weight saving is close
to 50kg.
Quote:
The bodyshell has a narrower transmission tunnel and a new propshaft, which means the crew sit closer to the centre of the car, and a stronger roll cage.
Quote:
The car is 95mm longer.
Sounds to me like they tried to get the weight in the center of the car, as much as possible, and made the car just 2 percent longer for aerodynamic packaging.

And isn't a bit early to use the Focus as an example of brilliant design when it hasn't visited the podium yet?
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Old 03-28-2003, 10:26 AM   #18
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Hopefully this conversation will eventually move on to the fact that the Peugeot has higher torque figures, which is the only genuine (sizeable) advantange I've heard from industry sources...
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Old 03-28-2003, 12:59 PM   #19
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Quote:
Reid won in 2001? Hmm. Not to be a jerk, but... If you want people to take your opinion seriously on this topic, you might want display even the most basic amount of knowledge of the Subaru WRC's racing history...
Burns Won in 2001

and I dont care if you take my opinion seriously

And my knowledge of Subaru's WRC racing history comes from actualy going to a WRC event, not spending all my time on the internet arguing about fact and figures.
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Old 03-28-2003, 02:36 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Idjiit
Reid won in 2001? Hmm.
So I guess the codriver doesn't win anything then? He's just there for the ride ?

Quote:
Originally posted by Idjiit
Not to be a jerk, but... If you want people to take your opinion seriously on this topic, you might want display even the most basic amount of knowledge of the Subaru WRC's racing history...
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Old 03-28-2003, 04:07 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by hillman
I doubt seriously the relationship is direct, and never said it was.
Then why bother bring up overhang at all? If there is no correlation between overhang and weight distribution then any assumptions biased off of it are completely unfounded IE: “Pug being 10 /percent/ shorter overall ( 4415mm versus 4005 ) give the 206 a huge size advantage, and probably weight distribution, too.” This is just blowing smoke in the wind and pure speculation.

Quote:
It is almost certainly possible to be too short, as well. That said, both the Ford and the Citroen are substantially shorter than the Subaru. ( 4152mm, 4168, and 4415 respectively. )
Nice hedge. You are correct: The Peugeot wheel base might or might not be too short relative to everyone else. Further because of this fact everyone else might or might not have as short/long a wheel base.

You keep dancing around the only issue in regards to wheelbases and weight distribution: polar moment of inertia (pmoi). The cliff note version: The closer the weight is to the center of gravity (cg) the lower the pmoi and thus the easier the car will rotate. As stated in the Ford press brief about the new 03 Focus they moved the driver and co-driver in towards the center line of the car. Even though this move was stated as “driver safety” im sure they are not all too upset about lowering their pmoi either. Same goes for the Subaru flat four. I doubt that Prodrive it bitching and moaning too much about having an engine with a low CG. I would love to know how much Peugeot relocated that transverse four of theirs.

With the amount of engineering thrown at designing a WRC car today it would be naive to assume that one team had struck a gold mine in chassis design that would not be soon followed by all the others. Peugeot came out with a great package (chassis, drive train, tires, areo, reliability) in a well sorted out car that played to their drivers strengths and it showed.

If you want to look at something that seems to be in visible contention between the teems its the areo packages. Last year it was noted that Subaru had problems with oversteer which was exasperated when damage was sustained to the front splitter. Note this year with the new car the change to the chin splitter and a new wing on the back deck. Ford in its 2003 redesign admits to using a longer chassis for areo reasons and the addition of a new type of rear wing.

Quote:
And isn't a bit early to use the Focus as an example of brilliant design when it hasn't visited the podium yet?
Ford is not an example of brilliant design but rather of a team who recently underwent a wholesale redesigned of their car and for some strange reason chose a different direction then your espousing.
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Old 04-01-2003, 10:41 AM   #22
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Then why botehr bring up overhang at all?
Because unless Subaru has made a quantum leap in technology, their overhangs weigh *something*. They have 10 percent more *something* out there than Peugeot, and ~7 percent more than Ford or Citroen. Given that all teams are making everything on the cars as light as possible, and moving as much weight to the center as possible, it is highly unlikely that the Subaru doesn't have more weight outside the axles than its competition.

And even if it is just air, 16" of additional length affects the line the cars can take through a corner. The shorter car will always have more room in the corner to pick the best line.

Quote:
Nice hedge. You are correct: The Peugeot wheel base might or might not be too short relative to everyone else.
It'd be logical to conclude that since the Pug is extremely successful, that it isn't too short. Similarly, the Subaru has not been, so it doesn't seem to be a superior design given the evidence at-hand.

Quote:
You keep dancing around teh only issue in regards to wheelbases and weight distribution: polar moment of inertia (pmoi).
I'm not dancing around it, I'm saying the fact that the Subaru has much more car outside the wheelbase almost certainly indicates it has a higher PMOI. That means it will not change direction as easily, but OTOH, it will be more stable in the high-speed straight sections.

This is where the balance between short-enough, and too short comes into play.

Quote:
The cliff note version: The closer teh weight is to teh center of gravity (cg) teh lower teh pmoi and thus teh easier teh car will rotate.
Thanks for the completely unnecessary primer. What did you think I was talking about when I said, "Take two cars of teh same weight. One with significant weight hung out beyond teh axles and one with that weight in teh center of teh car. Which do you want to try and turn?"

I drive an MR2, I understand polar moments.

Quote:
With teh amount of engineering thrown at designing a WRC car today it would be naive to assume that one team had struck a gold mine in chassis design that would not be soon followed by all teh otehrs.
They still have to base the car on a production chassis, don't they? Does Subaru have a ~4100mm chassis to pick, even if they wanted to? ( Serious question, I don't know everything they sell world-wide. )

Quote:
Ford is not an example of brilliant design but ratehr of a team who recently underwent a wholesale redesigned of tehr car and for some strange reason chose a different direction tehn your espousing.
What do think I'm espousing? That shorter is always better? Obviously not, because I said exactly the opposite.

The Ford is much closer to the size of the Pug than the Subaru. Why is that?
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Old 04-01-2003, 05:02 PM   #23
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Wow.. teh switching of teh “e” and teh “h” is really annoying. Consider this a place holder for when I can read your post with out getting a headache.

so much for reading any otehr posts on nasioc today
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Old 04-02-2003, 02:09 AM   #24
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Shorter wheel bases are all nice and dandy for tarmac, but the difference is not as noticable in the rest of the rallies, where if you didnt notice the Subaru does just fine.
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