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Old 01-14-2021, 10:34 AM   #1
BlackFighter
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Default IAG oil pan vs Killer B oil pan.

Het guys, any thoughts on the two oil pans? I have read and seen lots of nice info on the killer b oil pan but not so much on the IAG oil pan. The IAG oil pan looks like a better design for the track use, and have been told but reputable ppl that the IAG is better then the Killer B.

Any first hand experience? Im sure I cant go wrong with either. But for track use, cooling will be the number 1 concern.
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Old 01-14-2021, 11:03 AM   #2
KillerBMotorsport
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Of course we're biased, but here to answer any question you may have on our products. I've enjoyed seeing new products come to market, the competition it brings, and the improvements it brings to us all.

In regards to track use, our standard performance pan is good for 1.6Gs sustained, and with the addition of our Oil Control Valve, 1.8Gs sustained. I don't know if the OCV would provide the same results with a competitors product, as it has only been used with ours.

We also have a new pan coming out mid-Feb called the 'Super-G' that is for the 1%-ers. The open class T/A guys with tons of aero, 1,200hp drag guys, etc... It has some features that you've not seen in a Subaru oil pan before (pat. pending). Results have been very positive, exceeding expectation.

Somewhat OT, but related, we also have a new Ultimate Oil Pickup '110-HF' coming out to match the Super-G (and is back compatible to any previous pan we've made, and OEM pans), it IS the highest flow (lowest restriction) oil pickup you can buy for a Subaru... and yes we did test it against all others. Will be posting test data in the coming weeks when we launch.
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Old 01-14-2021, 11:20 AM   #3
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We also have a new pan coming out mid-Feb called the 'Super-G' that is for the 1%-ers. The open class T/A guys with tons of aero, 1,200hp drag guys, etc... It has some features that you've not seen in a Subaru oil pan before (pat. pending). Results have been very positive, exceeding expectation.
That sounds interesting. Will the new oil pan have cooling fins on the bottom like the IAG does?
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Old 01-14-2021, 11:33 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by BlackFighter View Post
Will the new oil pan have cooling fins on the bottom like the IAG does?
No. We found increased oil capacity had more effect on oil temperature, quality over time, and the increased depth reduces the probability of the pickup funneling (sucking air like when a bathtub drains), so we used that space for more oil. For a heat sink to be functional in this application it needs a lot of airflow and far higher fin density. If you look under any high end performance platform that uses heat sinks on trans, diff pan, etc... you'll see much higher fin density with aero like naca ducts directing airflow. Even at that, it's a marginal improvement in cooling. Cars in this category that can be had as 'track spec' will have remote coolers, pumps, etc. for all of that stuff because that's the most effective method managing high temps. All that being said... if all else were equal (same pan) fins will pull more heat than no fins.

Last edited by KillerBMotorsport; 01-14-2021 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 01-14-2021, 12:00 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
No. We found increased oil capacity had more effect on oil temperature, quality over time, and the increased depth reduces the probability of the pickup funneling (sucking air like when a bathtub drains), so we used that space for more oil. For a heat sink to be functional in this application it needs a lot of airflow and far higher fin density. If you look under any high end performance platform that uses heat sinks on trans, diff pan, etc... you'll see much higher fin density with aero like naca ducts directing airflow. Even at that, it's a marginal improvement in cooling. Cars in this category that can be had as 'track spec' will have remote coolers, pumps, etc. for all of that stuff because that's the most effective method managing high temps.
The fins seem like a good idea on paper. But with the way headers wrap around our oil pans, I wonder if the fins would transfer more heat into the oil in traffic, etc. Higher density fins would only make that worse...

I'm also not a huge fan of the IAG baffle with the flappers. On a race car that will get torn apart each season, cool. On a street car where it won't see the light of day for 100k miles or more? No thanks.

I have no experience with either pan, just talking.
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Old 01-14-2021, 12:29 PM   #6
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No. We found increased oil capacity had more effect on oil temperature, quality over time, and the increased depth reduces the probability of the pickup funneling (sucking air like when a bathtub drains), so we used that space for more oil. For a heat sink to be functional in this application it needs a lot of airflow and far higher fin density. If you look under any high end performance platform that uses heat sinks on trans, diff pan, etc... you'll see much higher fin density with aero like naca ducts directing airflow. Even at that, it's a marginal improvement in cooling. Cars in this category that can be had as 'track spec' will have remote coolers, pumps, etc. for all of that stuff because that's the most effective method managing high temps. All that being said... if all else were equal (same pan) fins will pull more heat than no fins.
That makes sense. Especially our headers wrapping around the pan itself. Will deff be running a oil cooler too. Located in the hood scoop or front grill.
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Old 01-14-2021, 12:29 PM   #7
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I'd go with Killer B because cheaper. If you are at the point where a bigger tray is a valid concern for racing, I think the difference between the two products is razor thin. Legit testing back to back is a near impossibility, so we are back to bench racing two nice products. I bench race with my wallet in this case as its not like either product is some knock-off eBay bullcrap where lower cost is higher risk.
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Old 01-14-2021, 01:57 PM   #8
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Have the v1 fabricated KBM pan and I'm happy with it but it's pretty much street only use now. I would consider a cast KBM pan for my next engine setup. Would just have to add an EOT bung into it since I use the NPT port for something else.
Have only looked at photos of the IAG pan. I like the bottom drain with recessed plug. I like that it has a bung specifically for an EOT sensor. As other stated the cooling fins I find to be a waste of effort. Also not sure those four rear mounting bolts would be with in-car R&R. Those raised bosses and it's already dang tight tool clearance to the subframe (even when engine lifted a bit). IDK also it is more expensive. If you go with the IAG pan please post up some of your thoughts and experience. Would be nice to hear.
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Old 01-14-2021, 02:26 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Stretch18 View Post
The fins seem like a good idea on paper. But with the way headers wrap around our oil pans, I wonder if the fins would transfer more heat into the oil in traffic, etc. Higher density fins would only make that worse...

I'm also not a huge fan of the IAG baffle with the flappers. On a race car that will get torn apart each season, cool. On a street car where it won't see the light of day for 100k miles or more? No thanks.

I have no experience with either pan, just talking.
The oil exchange rate in the pan is so fast that header heat really doesn't do anything. Really, nothing. Years ago we had a guy that ran a Full-Race header with our pan and it made contact nearly the full length of the dished in section. I had never seen anything like it before, but it didn't seem to bother him. Between seasons we did end up making him a custom pan at our request, and he saw zero different in oil temps. Not that he was seeing high temps before, but his before/after temps were virtually the same. Taking IR reading on the pan you see small temps changes on the exterior surface, but it never equates to anything measurable on the oil temps. I believe this is because (despite the appearance of the application of severe heat) the actual exposure area is less than 1% of the surfaces the oil is exposed to.

We've done flapper valves before, and you'll see them again from us There are certainly material and design dos and don'ts, and I agree, for a car that intends on staying together for an extended period, avoiding the flaps isn't a bad idea. Although, if done right, they should last a very long time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackFighter View Post
Will deff be running a oil cooler too. Located in the hood scoop or front grill.
^ this is how you cool oil

I recommend the highest oil temp thermostatic adapter you can find and a moderate sized exchanger. These cars don't typically have oil temps issues unless really pushed on track, or in extreme environments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unabomber View Post
I'd go with Killer B because cheaper.
We prefer less expensive or improved value

Quote:
Originally Posted by JarHarms View Post
Have the v1 fabricated KBM pan and I'm happy with it but it's pretty much street only use now. I would consider a cast KBM pan for my next engine setup. Would just have to add an EOT bung into it since I use the NPT port for something else.
Have only looked at photos of the IAG pan. I like the bottom drain with recessed plug. I like that it has a bung specifically for an EOT sensor. As other stated the cooling fins I find to be a waste of effort. Also not sure those four rear mounting bolts would be with in-car R&R. Those raised bosses and it's already dang tight tool clearance to the subframe (even when engine lifted a bit). IDK also it is more expensive. If you go with the IAG pan please post up some of your thoughts and experience. Would be nice to hear.
You have an fab pan with 2 ports? You should be able to do pretty much anything you want with the two ports and we have the adapters to di it as well

We considered using the smaller port, but over the years we've been asked for so many variants to accommodate sensors, heaters, mag plugs, quick drains, etc... that using a M20 with an 1/2NPT would allow you to pretty much do ANYTHING you wanted because from M20 and 1/2NPT you can find adapters for virtually everything out there. Once you go 1/4 NPT or smaller, the adaptability decreases.

We used to have a bottom drain, but so many people use Fumoto Valves (we sell a crap ton) that I don't see the bottom drain as practical anymore and no one bought the option. I know the marketing says 'get out ALL your oil', but in reality there's still over 1/2 quart of residual oil still in all the nooks and crannies of your engine when you do an oil/filter change, so does removing that extra 1.3 ounces mean anything? No.
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Old 01-14-2021, 02:32 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
We prefer less expensive or improved value
BTW, putting the thread pitch next to each port is a friggen brilliant idea that I wish more people would do...
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Old 01-14-2021, 02:57 PM   #11
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BTW, putting the thread pitch next to each port is a friggen brilliant idea that I wish more people would do...
I agree! going back to ~2009 we didn't put anything there and about once a month we'd get a call from some one who put the M20 into the 1/2NPT of vise versa. What a mess!
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Old 01-14-2021, 05:47 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
...
You have an fab pan with 2 ports? You should be able to do pretty much anything you want with the two ports and we have the adapters to di it as well

We considered using the smaller port, but over the years we've been asked for so many variants to accommodate sensors, heaters, mag plugs, quick drains, etc... that using a M20 with an 1/2NPT would allow you to pretty much do ANYTHING you wanted because from M20 and 1/2NPT you can find adapters for virtually everything out there. Once you go 1/4 NPT or smaller, the adaptability decreases.

We used to have a bottom drain, but so many people use Fumoto Valves (we sell a crap ton) that I don't see the bottom drain as practical anymore and no one bought the option. I know the marketing says 'get out ALL your oil', but in reality there's still over 1/2 quart of residual oil still in all the nooks and crannies of your engine when you do an oil/filter change, so does removing that extra 1.3 ounces mean anything? No.
Oh very true there are 2 ports. However I have the 2nd port dedicated for another purpose. If the 2nd port was unused I would certainly be using it for my EOT sensor. I was not framing it as any negative, just specific to my situation (in fact the IAG pan would not work at all for my setup). Understood on the rational of your 2nd port size choice.
Yea I sort of remember that option now that you mention it. I can see how a fumoto would need side outlet. I do not use a fumoto but the side outlet draining is a bit "mess-tackular" at times. Again I do not frame the side outlet as a negative but only a personal preference and something that I can certainly adjust to.
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Old 01-14-2021, 06:19 PM   #13
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killerb how is the new pan going to work compared to a dry sump? i think im just getting hooked looking at super cars on the daily lol
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Old 01-14-2021, 09:38 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by JarHarms View Post
However I have the 2nd port dedicated for another purpose.
What are doing with the other port?

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Originally Posted by Jedi03 View Post
killerb how is the new pan going to work compared to a dry sump? i think im just getting hooked looking at super cars on the daily lol
Well, it doesn't because it's a wet sump

Why do you feel there's a need for dry sump?
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Old 01-14-2021, 11:25 PM   #15
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Het guys, any thoughts on the two oil pans? I have read and seen lots of nice info on the killer b oil pan but not so much on the IAG oil pan. The IAG oil pan looks like a better design for the track use, and have been told but reputable ppl that the IAG is better then the Killer B.

Any first hand experience? Im sure I cant go wrong with either. But for track use, cooling will be the number 1 concern.
I run the older style KB, i wont change that seeing it functions as needed for my application. I like focusing on mechanical grip over areo so I am not maxing out the g forces like a full out track only car (those might be a different story but I seriously doubt it).

I have had a few cars and other vehicles of sorts with dry sump systems, I wanted one on this car at one time. They are great for extended high g loads or in situations the gravity is not consistent (lol aka you might flip or jump) as well as to control oil pressure levels to specific sections of an engine.

Both places make a fair amount of products so might just pick who you plan to do the most business with. For a reference point I have had good experience with KB's customer service.
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Old 01-15-2021, 10:18 AM   #16
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We've done flapper valves before, and you'll see them again from us There are certainly material and design dos and don'ts, and I agree, for a car that intends on staying together for an extended period, avoiding the flaps isn't a bad idea. Although, if done right, they should last a very long time.
So the flappers were my next concern to address. The car will be mostly track, maybe sometimes street just for fun once in a while. So oil will be drained more frequently and sent out to blackstone for analysis but don't see a reason to take off the oil pan unless Ill be having oil issues or need to check out the rods/crank. So my concern is that I probably will not be checking on the flappers as frequently as I should.

Last edited by BlackFighter; 01-15-2021 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 01-16-2021, 08:04 PM   #17
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im not happy with kb pan , i pull motor apart at least once a year every winter between seasons for inspection and i gotta say lack of o ring on a premium product is just lazy , I often end up bending lip of the pan or damaging block surface slightly due to silicone, until last year i had machine shop cut out o ring groove put i ring in the there no leaks no issues million times better than before, i hope their new design address that
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Old 01-16-2021, 10:56 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
No. We found increased oil capacity had more effect on oil temperature, quality over time, and the increased depth reduces the probability of the pickup funneling (sucking air like when a bathtub drains), so we used that space for more oil. For a heat sink to be functional in this application it needs a lot of airflow and far higher fin density. If you look under any high end performance platform that uses heat sinks on trans, diff pan, etc... you'll see much higher fin density with aero like naca ducts directing airflow. Even at that, it's a marginal improvement in cooling. Cars in this category that can be had as 'track spec' will have remote coolers, pumps, etc. for all of that stuff because that's the most effective method managing high temps. All that being said... if all else were equal (same pan) fins will pull more heat than no fins.
Would this mean that at highway speed the finned pan would be more functional than a flat oil pan pan? I get for track use there isn't enough airflow to cool the finned pan. But would be interesting to see highway Temp data.
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Old 01-16-2021, 10:59 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by BlackFighter View Post
So the flappers were my next concern to address. The car will be mostly track, maybe sometimes street just for fun once in a while. So oil will be drained more frequently and sent out to blackstone for analysis but don't see a reason to take off the oil pan unless Ill be having oil issues or need to check out the rods/crank. So my concern is that I probably will not be checking on the flappers as frequently as I should.
Flappers are most problematic on horizontal surfaces. The original flapper valve was used on a vertical surfaces; BMW M8. When used on horizontal surfaces they say open and become ineffective. On vertical surfaces (assuming a proper grade of rubber) it should have OEM longevity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by igoiks View Post
im not happy with kb pan , i pull motor apart at least once a year every winter between seasons for inspection and i gotta say lack of o ring on a premium product is just lazy , I often end up bending lip of the pan or damaging block surface slightly due to silicone, until last year i had machine shop cut out o ring groove put i ring in the there no leaks no issues million times better than before, i hope their new design address that
Sorry to hear you're disappointed in our product. Our experience with o-ring grooves has not been good, with testing on our own and other products that have used them. Nowhere near providing OEM longevity. For a pan that come off frequently there is more convenience for having an o-ring.

Although... the pan you have must be more than a few years old because we've since added a threaded hole in the flange. Insert screw, thread it in, and pop, pan is off. Takes less than 15 seconds with no harm to the pan's flange or block's sealing surface.
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Old 01-16-2021, 11:17 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by GK1707 View Post
Would this mean that at highway speed the finned pan would be more functional than a flat oil pan pan? I get for track use there isn't enough airflow to cool the finned pan. But would be interesting to see highway Temp data.
I doubt there's data, and you'd have to use the same pan with and without fins. You couldn't do it by comparing IAG and KBM.

These cars have a belly pan so fins aren't exposed to airflow. Even if they were, you'd still need some kind of ducting to have effective airflow through the fins. Plus at highway speeds, oil temp is cold to begin with.
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Old 01-16-2021, 11:42 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
Flappers are most problematic on horizontal surfaces. The original flapper valve was used on a vertical surfaces; BMW M8. When used on horizontal surfaces they say open and become ineffective. On vertical surfaces (assuming a proper grade of rubber) it should have OEM longevity.







Sorry to hear you're disappointed in our product. Our experience with o-ring grooves has not been good, with testing on our own and other products that have used them. Nowhere near providing OEM longevity. For a pan that come off frequently there is more convenience for having an o-ring.



Although... the pan you have must be more than a few years old because we've since added a threaded hole in the flange. Insert screw, thread it in, and pop, pan is off. Takes less than 15 seconds with no harm to the pan's flange or block's sealing surface.


I have older welded together pan, o ring works just fine as long as you have good crank case pressure management, 750whp with 100hp nitrous shot 0 leaks , there are o rings all over the engine seining 100+psi with no issues as well
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Old 02-06-2021, 02:52 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
I doubt there's data, and you'd have to use the same pan with and without fins. You couldn't do it by comparing IAG and KBM.

These cars have a belly pan so fins aren't exposed to airflow. Even if they were, you'd still need some kind of ducting to have effective airflow through the fins. Plus at highway speeds, oil temp is cold to begin with.



Yeah yeah. We all know a really long hose will do the same job as those fancy AOS's.
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Old 02-06-2021, 09:59 AM   #23
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Came across another detail, the Killer B Pan holds 1/2 quart more oil. So depending on which OEM pan you're starting from (I'm using the middle sized one here as an example), you'll see a 22% increase in capacity or 33% with the Killer B.
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Old 02-09-2021, 10:13 AM   #24
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Glad I came across this as I was researching my build, thanks for the info


Sure I'll be back with some questions.
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Old 02-09-2021, 12:25 PM   #25
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Ya im probably going with the killerb oil pan but waiting to see what "new" items Killer is planning to release on the market.
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