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Old 04-15-2008, 12:23 PM   #1
jigga
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Default Where is the best place to mount an external map sensor?

Simple question..not sure if it belonged here or the EMS section, but here goes...

Where is the best place to mount an external map sensor on our cars for those with standalone EMS systems and built engines? We have tried tapping the number 1 runner and threading the map sensor directly in there, but we appear to be seeing is the map sensor signal bouncing around... It appears within normal levels at idle, but gets worse as boost is increased.

At 14psi, it is bouncing around by 3-4psi of boost. At 20 psi of boost, the signal is bouncing around 8-10psi.

We tried attaching a small vacuum hose to the map sensor itself, and remote mounting it to the small nipple off the side of the number 1 runner on the manifold. It helps a bit, but the bouncing is still there as boost is ramped up.

The best location to tap from as far as a stable map signal appears to be the port at the back of the manifold itself by the throttle body... Still not ideal though.. The bouncing is still there.

Am I a candidate for one of Cobb's external map sensor adapters? Or should I be looking for other causes for what we are seeing? Any ideas would be much appreciated.

Engine is built, with cams, headwork and the usual stuff..This further complicates things since we are unsure as to whether what we are seeing is normal and just a side effect of cams, or whether there is something else causing what we are seeing.


Thanks in advance!
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Old 04-16-2008, 03:00 AM   #2
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I'm running a standalone with map sensor. My engine also has large cams, ported heads and all the other stuff that gives unstable manifold pressure.

I had the same issues as you. I tried-
- fitting 1 tube into plenum near throttle body.
- twin metal tubes running into center of throttle body area
- dual connections into plenum area
- made a small tank about 2.5 cubic inch volume and took 4 points from plenum and a single line out of the tank to ecu.
All the above still gave me a manifold pressure signal which was all over the place.

Then I tried to fit a small needle valve next to the ecu to restrict the flow from the small chamber I had fitted with the 4 tubes.
I adjusted this on the road and data logged it. I was finally able to get a smooth "useable" manifold pressure reading. However, the ecu developed a lag in response that was due to the slow response of the map sensor in the ecu.
Turns out by smoothing the signal I had also introduced a lag into the system.

I ran with my ecu in this configuration for a few months untill finally I got sick of it. I went to the ecu manufacturer and told them what was going on and I either wanted it fixed or a refund. I was ready to ditch my current ecu and buy another brand.
Turns out they took my ecu back and did a firmware change. I got the ecu back, fitted a single tube to my plenum near the throttle body. I was stunned, not only did the car drive more smoothly then ever before it also produced better top end power under boost and the datalogging was stable.

Mind you this came after having the manufacturer try to blame my cam timing, vacuum leaks, small plenum, tuning, my lumpy cams and whatever else they could think of.
In the end turns out the only problem was their ecu firmware.

Just for your own reference the ecu I am running is an EMS 8860 Motorsport.
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Old 04-16-2008, 10:06 AM   #3
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Ahh.. This is the exactly situation I am seeing as well... We've looked at blamimg everything from the cams to the valve springs of the engine, and so on and so forth. I'm just not so keen on throwing money at the problem without knowing what I need to deal with!

Can you possibly post a pic of where exactly you are now tapping the signal for your map signal now?

My tuner has the ability to smooth the map signal via the software of the ecu, but we don't want to do that quite yet as it seems akin to sweeping a potential issue under the rug really...

As mentioned, drilling and tapping into the number 1 runner gives a lousy signal.

Using the tiny nipple on the number 1 runner closer to the TGV's gives a lousy signal also.

Best signal we found was when we went behind the manifold in the number 4 cyl area and tapped a signal from a vacuum line there... It was still a lousy signal though, but not as bad as the others.

What I don't know is if getting the signal from where the stock map sensor is located will do the trick... I don't know if there is something about the location of the stock map sensor that will give a better reading compared to sticking it in any of the runners?

Another theory we are thinking is that the tiny stock plenum volume is not enough to feed the engine, so is causing the swings we are seeing as the engine increases in speed, so a source outside of the plenum area (such as where the stock unit is mounted) would work much better..

I have no idea!
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Old 04-16-2008, 06:56 PM   #4
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Your thoughts on the plenum are exactly what I was thinking...maybe the intake draw of the cylinder causes a large pressure drop in the plenum which is then replenished by the intake throttle - hence leading to large variations in pressure every time a cylinder does an intake stroke.
In part this may be correct??.

I dont have a pic right now but I'll outline my setup.

I have a single hard plastic tube of approx 5mm inside diameter running to a single point on my intake manifold. It connects right next to the throttle butterfy as far away from any of the runners as possible. It then connects directly to the nipple of the ecu. Total length of tube is about 3feet.

I used to have all the extra tubes and "pressure averaging chamber" that I made but in the end ditched it all.

As I mentioned my problem was all fixed in the firmware.

Personally I believe the problem is partially due to the small plenum but we really cant change that without redesigning the whole intake manifold. I do believe the subaru has the smallest plenum I have ever seen on an engine of its size. I see a lot of Mitsubishi EVO's and Nissans and their manifolds are huge compared to ours.
All I can suggest is just make sure you dont have any leaks and everything is installed correctly and then focus on the settings of your ecu.

What brand of ecu are you running anyway??
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Old 04-16-2008, 11:12 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bugeyes View Post
Your thoughts on the plenum are exactly what I was thinking...maybe the intake draw of the cylinder causes a large pressure drop in the plenum which is then replenished by the intake throttle - hence leading to large variations in pressure every time a cylinder does an intake stroke.
In part this may be correct??.

I dont have a pic right now but I'll outline my setup.

I have a single hard plastic tube of approx 5mm inside diameter running to a single point on my intake manifold. It connects right next to the throttle butterfy as far away from any of the runners as possible. It then connects directly to the nipple of the ecu. Total length of tube is about 3feet.

I used to have all the extra tubes and "pressure averaging chamber" that I made but in the end ditched it all.

As I mentioned my problem was all fixed in the firmware.

Personally I believe the problem is partially due to the small plenum but we really cant change that without redesigning the whole intake manifold. I do believe the subaru has the smallest plenum I have ever seen on an engine of its size. I see a lot of Mitsubishi EVO's and Nissans and their manifolds are huge compared to ours.
All I can suggest is just make sure you dont have any leaks and everything is installed correctly and then focus on the settings of your ecu.

What brand of ecu are you running anyway??
lol.. I never thought that I would actually be a candidate for an aftermarket intake manifold.. Some upgrade for the sake of upgrading, while I might be in a situation where i actually HAVE to upgrade the darn thing to get the car to run properly..

I agree with you also, it seems that every car on the road has a larger plenum.. not sure why they made it that small..

As for engine management, it's AEM's EMS system. It is already running the most up to date firmware available for it.

I guess I'll order up the cobb map sensor adapter and see what that does.If that doesn't work, I guess I'll be faced with a bit of a dilemma.. No real proven and reliable intake manifold solutions on the market for these cars.

I remember that when we first ran into this issue, we called AEM's technical assistance, and they also suggested moving the sensor away to the turbulent air in the plenum
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Old 04-18-2008, 02:26 PM   #6
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bump for new ideas... I can't be the only one running an external map sensor around here?
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Old 04-18-2008, 02:45 PM   #7
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Tube in the middle of the manifold is what I use. The one on the opposite side of the throttle body. You can see it in the picture below, I sweated a dash 6 fitting onto it so I could use a steal braided line.



Line goes to the Autronic MAP sensor.
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Old 04-18-2008, 02:50 PM   #8
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I use the Apex'i MAP sensor that came with the AVCR to feed my MAF simulator and it's connected to the plenum on my intake manifold. Do you have a separate sensor for your boost gauge and if so, does it show the fluctuations?
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Old 04-18-2008, 05:45 PM   #9
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Thanks for posting guys..

I have my Eboost 2 that controls the boost, and it doesn't seem to show the fluctuations as well.. I'm going to post a copy of a log we pulled from the car.. I also have the standard boost gauge as well that doesn't show this as well..It's the map sensor itself that seems to indicate that all is not well
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Old 04-18-2008, 05:58 PM   #10
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This is a screen shot of the log that came off the car last time..
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Old 04-18-2008, 06:04 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick_the_ginge View Post
Tube in the middle of the manifold is what I use. The one on the opposite side of the throttle body.
I used the same spot for my old gm 3bar map.
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Old 04-18-2008, 06:05 PM   #12
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key thing here though is that as the boost goes up, you can see the map signal fluctuate more and more... wierd since the other 2 guages in the car seem to indicate that all is well..

But since the ECU listens to the map sensor itself, I guess we have to somehow figure out how to stop that fluctuation as the boost increases
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Old 04-18-2008, 06:06 PM   #13
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I used the same spot for my old gm 3bar map.
and your map signal was nice and smooth as boost ramped up?
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Old 04-18-2008, 06:08 PM   #14
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Ok.. let me ask this..

How long of a line did you guys have between your map sensor at the manifold itself??
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Old 04-18-2008, 06:53 PM   #15
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and your map signal was nice and smooth as boost ramped up?
It gave me what I thought was the best signal out of the different places I tried. The other good one was under the intake manifold as I recall, but I had all my other stuff plugged in there.

I mounted the map sensor right underneath the intake manifold, zip tied it to a bundle of wires there. So the vacuum line couldn't have been more than 3-4 inches long.
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Old 04-18-2008, 08:02 PM   #16
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It's like deja-vu (spelling?).

Mine did the same as manifold pressure increased and went into boost the signal would get worse and worse.
Does your ecu allow the use of dual map sensors. I know mine allows this and you can use the average between the two.

Are you sure your not getting induced elecrical noise onto the map sensor signal. You should have a fully screened cable with the shielding earthed. Personally I dont think thats the problem but it cant hurt to check.
Try blowing/sucking the map sensor tube while the car isnt running and log it. Make sure the signal is relatively smooth, I wouldn't expect to see sharp spikes or dips if your blowing or sucking it.

Have you had any "usefull" feedback from the ecu manufacturer on what this could be? Surely they have used these before on Subaru's. Is it possible to return the ecu for testing. I'd be surprised if they would refuse. Especially if negative publicity of their ecu was posted on the largest Subaru forum in the world.
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Old 04-18-2008, 09:34 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bugeyes View Post
It's like deja-vu (spelling?).

Mine did the same as manifold pressure increased and went into boost the signal would get worse and worse.
Does your ecu allow the use of dual map sensors. I know mine allows this and you can use the average between the two.

Are you sure your not getting induced elecrical noise onto the map sensor signal. You should have a fully screened cable with the shielding earthed. Personally I dont think thats the problem but it cant hurt to check.
Try blowing/sucking the map sensor tube while the car isnt running and log it. Make sure the signal is relatively smooth, I wouldn't expect to see sharp spikes or dips if your blowing or sucking it.

Have you had any "usefull" feedback from the ecu manufacturer on what this could be? Surely they have used these before on Subaru's. Is it possible to return the ecu for testing. I'd be surprised if they would refuse. Especially if negative publicity of their ecu was posted on the largest Subaru forum in the world.
lol.. Glad to see that i'm not the first person in history to see this issue.. I just don't get it at all.

We have tried 2 different map sensors, both AEM units thinking that one was damaged or something, and they do the exact same thing.

I do know that the map sensor is spliced into the stock wiring. As for whether it is shielded, I'm not quite sure.. I'd have to call the shop that the car is at on Monday to find out for sure.It definitely is something to check though. You aren't the first person to mention the thing about shielding it all as well. Someone else mentioned about making sure all grounds are perfect.

I will call the shop up though to ensure that the entire line is fully shielded, and not just a splice job with black electrical tape wrapping it all up

I'm not sure if the AEM EMS (made by GEMS) allows you to use 2 map sensors to be honest. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable on them can chime in? I know that it does have a MAP sensor smoothing function on it though that allows for the oscillations to be reduced. Although it would make the readout look prettier, it still doesn't change the fact that this is going on. We could smooth it out while hiding the fact that something odd is actually going on.

Returning the ECU to AEM is very do-able, as it is still under warranty. I guess we need to work through a process of elimination until we reach the point where there is nowhere to look apart from he ECU. When we asked AEM about what we were seeing, their suggestion was to move the MAP sensor away from the runners since they were likely a source of turbulence. As mentioned earlier, moving it around did have an effect, but not enough to spot the oscillation.

It could very well be electrical noise, since the shop maintains that the car is not misfiring, as it is able to complete pulls up to 8K without issue. It just does so with wildly swinging map readings, causing the ecu to throw in odd amounts of fuel and timing as the revs and boost climbs.
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Old 04-19-2008, 04:17 AM   #18
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I'd be very careful doing power runs while the ecu is not reading data correctly. It run lean for short bursts and cause bad detonation.
It sounds like the actual map sensor is ok if you have tried two and they both do the same thing.

Did you try sucking/blowing into the sensor with your mouth and checking the data logs (you could even use a bicycle pump).I would expect a resonably smooth signal. Obviously this would be done with the engine off.
If you get a nice smooth signal it at least shows there isnt an issue with the data logging.

I would question if the ecu mathematics uses the same signal as what you are seeing on the datalog. Maybe the datalogging displays the raw input signal but the ecu mapping uses a different calculated/smoothed signal.

I wouldnt really expect to see much difference by using different lengths of tube between the manifold and the map sensor. I would expect that as the map signal is picked up closer to an inlet runner the signal would become more erratic.

I agree with your cautious approach in not just sticking heaps of smoothing in the ecu setup. I believe you want the signal as raw as possible whilst still having a signal that is smooth as practical,this would always give the ecu the best response. I dont understand how the shop can say the car isnt misfiring when the readings are all over the place (bit of a concern).
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Old 04-19-2008, 05:58 AM   #19
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thanks for the response buyeyes!

No, we have not tried blowing into the map sensor with our mouths (at least not while I have been there). I also would be very curious to see what the map signal is like.

Right now, the ECU is running purely off what it is getting from the map sensor. There has been zero smoothing applied to the map, since the my tuner correctly did not want to hide what has been going on here. My tuner has maintained that the car to him does not feel as if it is running properly. To the guys at the shop though, they reckon it runs just fine. They are basing this off a seat of the pants feeling since the car is not stuttering on the dyno or anything right now and is producing smooth dyno charts on their DynoDynmics dyno. I on the other hand have no idea what the thing is supposed to feel like since it has been over 6 months now since I have even driven the car on the road

I too wonder how it is that they say the car is not misfiring since the signal is all over the place. They reckon that it is just the turbulence in the intake manifold that is causing it all. I get the feeling that it is because there isn't the usual "misfiring" hesitation going on, and the car is not cutting out on the dyno. I'm thinking also that the HKS DLI box on the car might be masking this effect though..

They are machining a map adapter similar to the Cobb unit to relocate the map sensor where the stock one is located, as they are thinking the location of the map sensor is the culprit. It should be interesting to see what happens with that. If that does not work, I guess they have no excuse not to change the plugs.

I might just put my foot down on Monday depending on what progress they make with this adapter for them to just replace the plugs on the car.

You are correct. My tuner believes also that we should have as raw a signal as possible for the ECU to make use of, and the smoothing should be used minimally if at all. As is now, it would require heaps of smoothing it seems, while hiding what is going on.
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Old 03-31-2015, 07:26 PM   #20
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the oem sensor has the benefit of being mounted to the TB, and if you look carefully the TB has a machined chamber inside of it which functions as a helmholtz resonator.

thus using the cobb adapter and tapping at the same point will be the easiest method of map sensor smoothing.

having said that, alternate locations may still be successfully used. one way would be to use the solution proposed here: http://www.boost-instruments.com/ms/mapdot.html.

another solution is to resort to electrical signal damping such as that seen here: http://www.miataturbo.net/ecus-tunin...circuit-48665/

finally, the most elegant solution is one that is tuneable right in the ecu. one way is with the oem ecu running carberry (a custom rom mod), since jason has honored my request to expose the definitions for the oem rom map sensor smoothing code.

i can happily report that increasing the minimum threshold for map smoothing by about 100% (ie doubling it) has completely eliminated the sensor "bounce" seen when using the #1 intake manifold runner port. jason has stated that this is the way the original rom code does it (ie, if delta MAP exceeds x, smooth the value). if others are using different rom code it may be possible to expose the same thresholds. i do not know what the smoothing factor is, only the threshold.

hth
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Old 04-01-2015, 10:23 AM   #21
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Add a filter like one found on the legacy gt boom there's your smoothing!
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Old 04-01-2015, 12:39 PM   #22
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You can get snubber's from McMaster-Carr and they work great
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Old 08-10-2018, 03:32 AM   #23
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I would like my boost gauge to match my ecu map sensor reading. The bpv location, or any other manifold tap, does not come close to accomplishing this.

Would adding a cobb map sensor adaptor to the throttle body, then putting on a barbed nipple followed by a splitter with one line to the oem map sensor, and one line to my boost gauge sensor retain the same results as the map sensor being attached directly to the throttle body?
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Old 08-11-2018, 01:07 PM   #24
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Is your boost gauge mechanical or electric?

I don't foresee the tee or y-fitting as being an issue.
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Old 08-11-2018, 02:25 PM   #25
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Is your boost gauge mechanical or electric?

I don't foresee the tee or y-fitting as being an issue.
It's an electric 4 bar map sensor for an innovate psb-1 boost and afr gauge that has a lean cut and boost cut feature.

I found a nylon tee fitting that will screw directly into the Cobb adapter so that eliminates any hose run to the Y or Tee splitter.

I will report back.

Id like to understand how dyno tunes are done accurately with inconsistent peak boost readings.
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