ACL vs King (rod bearing) comparo

[ballitch]

Well there goes my high regards to ACL bearings after reading this thread. I don't have the good gauges most engine builders have. I am still wondering how a random set of OEM bearings compares to both ACL and King bearings.

Please advise. Of course this takes time, and time is money, but I think this info is worth it.


~Josh~

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[B.R.E.D]

For what its worth we have all but abandoned the use of ACL bearings. We still use them on request but we assume that we will have to but 3 to 4 sets to make them work. The kings have been spot on and will work perfectly with the new crank.

Matt

[mick_the_ginge]

Originally Posted by mick_the_ginge

I assume you are using the king Tri-layer bearings? From the sound of it they are closer to the ACL race bearing construction. However I could not find any technical details on them, anyone have that?

Anyone have this information. I used ACL RACE bearings for their strength. I also like the fact that they have a nickle backing under the lead/tin/copper layer. If I ever see nickle in my oil analysis I know its from the ACL bearings

I align hone the mains and adjust the rods to get the clearances I want so have never really noticed problems with ACL's. Of course I have not built a block for a year or so now.

I'm all for using a different brand of bearing as long as it delivers what I need.

[Team Scream]

Originally Posted by mick_the_ginge

Anyone have this information. I used ACL RACE bearings for their strength. I also like the fact that they have a nickle backing under the lead/tin/copper layer. If I ever see nickle in my oil analysis I know its from the ACL bearings

I align hone the mains and adjust the rods to get the clearances I want so have never really noticed problems with ACL's. Of course I have not built a block for a year or so now.

I'm all for using a different brand of bearing as long as it delivers what I need.

Hey Mick,

Here ya go. The part highlighted in GREEN

[Homemade WRX]

Mick, that's the same reason I've been a big fan of using Calico coatings for years. Other than it's top and does a great job of saving a bearing during a quick starvation, once you're through the coating, you know. It just adds another layer and earlier of indication of wear.
However I'm now looking at WPC...simply because I'd be dumb to not do the research, despite having no issues with Calico.

[Hopper]

In 2005 I picked up a set of ACL coated bearings, the shop that sold them was a Subaru shop that builds Subaru’s. The set they sold were 060C03 8296 STD, at this time I did not know if ACL made a Race Bearing.
I started to assemble the short block and did not like the clearance of the ACL bearings, Subaru’s are tight and these were just as tight. I used one ACL and one Subaru bearing (1/2 & 1/2) After 2 dyno sessions and one trip, I started to see some debris in the oil. Pulled engine and inspected, ACL bearings were coming apart, Subaru’s looked fine. The bearing material for the ACL had inadequate fatigue strength for the Subaru application; I could not believe the shop sold these bearings.

What I do now, Subaru and ACL Race bearing for the mains, and ACL Race for the rods. I always have 4 boxes of H and HX, I’ll measure the thickness of all bearings and put them in order, I do not care what it says on the back of the bearing, I just use a felt pen and write it on the back (you can see this on the bearing when you pull the engine apart). I’ll measure the crank diameter and rod big end. Everything is written down, and then the bearings are figured out, to what goes were.

Rule of thumb; .001 of clearance for every inch of shaft dia. i.e. 2 inch shaft would get .002 clearance.

A little loose is better than a little tight.

WPC treatment works; I’ve used it on everything, but will only use it on my main and rod bearings.

Cryo is another process that I use, and it works.

[RealStreet]

Some good information being shared here. It's nice that we are 3 pages in and nobody has said "engine failed due to a bad bearing" while inserting a manufactures name... Thanks to the OP for posting this up.

I don't know that I would swap brands of manufactures on one journal. Different manufactures are going to have the potential to have different targets of eccentricity in the bearing. I have lots of open bearings and I change things around till I get targets I want. One thing to keep in mind with engine parts is NEW can stand for NEVER EVER WORKED. You are going to have to do you homework ahead of time and have the tools and knowledge to be able to do the job correctly the first time.

In terms of eccentricity of the bearing and how different manufactures label clearance in terms of H/HX is going to change from brand to brand...some... This really comes down to how the part lives in the engine. A bearing may have a variance of .0005 in the rod but live just fine as you don't know what the part is doing in service.

I don't know that I am bed with one manufacture more than the other. I use a lot of ACL and Clevite. I check every clearance and don't assume anything. I think with this engine platform we look very, very closely for a answer in the realm of bearing failure. However the one single thing we cannot change about these engines is the simple fact that we are dealing with a very dynamic engine block in terms of integrity and we are also asking it to live in a environment that is many times over it's designed use.

Homemade, if you're in town for PRI and you wanna shake hands let me know. I'll be there at least a couple days and my shop is about 30 mins away.

Thanks

Jay Meagher

[tunze06]

Thank you for posting this info Team Scream! Learning engine building / blueprinting has recently become an obsession of mine, and I have learned a lot from reading through this and your ARP case bolt thread. I was surprised at the findings because it seems like all I see is ACL race bearings in various magazine builds, and builds I've seen on the DSM/EVO forums.

I'm sorry if this is a bit off topic, but I was wondering if I could get your opinion on what would be a good starter mic set and bore gauge. I was talking to my Matco dist. today and he can get me a Fowler bore gauge part # 72-646-400 for a reasonable price. Also I was wondering who manufactures the Matco branded mics and if they were any good.

Thanks.

[2006whitesti]

Originally Posted by tunze06

Thank you for posting this info Team Scream! Learning engine building / blueprinting has recently become an obsession of mine, and I have learned a lot from reading through this and your ARP case bolt thread. I was surprised at the findings because it seems like all I see is ACL race bearings in various magazine builds, and builds I've seen on the DSM/EVO forums.

I'm sorry if this is a bit off topic, but I was wondering if I could get your opinion on what would be a good starter mic set and bore gauge. I was talking to my Matco dist. today and he can get me a Fowler bore gauge part # 72-646-400 for a reasonable price. Also I was wondering who manufactures the Matco branded mics and if they were any good.

Thanks.

I know this was directed to Team Scream and I am sure he will answer, but if I am not mistaken he uses the same mics that I use. All are Mitutoyo digitals. You are going to need a 2-3" and 3-4" for these engines. I have used my 1-2" for checking cams. As for a bore gauge the Fowler X-tender digital is a great choice. Also make sure you have a good set of at least 6" calipers as these will be of use now and again. Hope this helps.

[MartinSTi05]

Also, feeler gauges, a micrometer ball and strait edge are nice to have.

[Team Scream]

Yep, I use all Mitutoyo digitals, which I like the best, but they are not perfect for all hard to reach locations like crank journals. You can do it, but you need to rotate the mic into different orientations in order to measure in 4-6 places around all journals because of the thickness of the digital read out part of the mic's.

Also, dont forget a rod bolt stretch gauge.... very important, even though mines broken, I am pulling the trigger on one of 2 new ones i have been looking at.

I like the Fowler - 74-646-401 digital because it lets you set precise measurements down to the tenth, and then sweep the mic to calibrate the bore gauge.

It also has min-hold function which makes life really easy.

[tunze06]

Thanks for the replies, I think that those are what I will go with. I have a few good sets feeler gauges, and a precision straight edge. Will definitely be looking for a good stretch gauge too.

[wrxsubiemod]

Who has a set of +1k kind rod bearings in stock? I'm going to order a set to try out. Are the mains out yet?

[Team Scream]

Originally Posted by wrxsubiemod

Who has a set of +1k kind rod bearings in stock? I'm going to order a set to try out. Are the mains out yet?

Go to King Bearings website. I deal with Rich Carr, he has been great the 2 times I have ordered stuff from him. YES the main bearings are available now
http://www.kingbearings.com/popups/addressCA2.html

[juanmedina]

I bought a set of main and rod king bearings from IMPORTIMAGE. Jeff will be building my motor .

[nomoredsm]

Ok I've been looking at both bearings on maperformance.com and the king bearings say they are 1/2 grooved and the acls say they are 3/4 grooved. What exactly does this even mean and what kind of advantages /disadvantages between them?

[Homemade WRX]

odd talking with King this past weekend, they thought they were a full grove...as I was asking about a 3/4 or 1/2 being available.

I need to get a set so I can confirm OR does someone have pics or can confirm?

[TheRipler]

According to this, the King HP are 3/4 grooved (improved oiling) and XP are 1/2 grooved (increased load capacity).

See "Features" at the bottom

Originally Posted by Team Scream

Hey Mick,

Here ya go. The part highlighted in GREEN

[3MI Racing]

See I have some slight fear on running a 1/2 groove on the #3 at high RPM...only way way to find out.

I guess I get to keep talking King about the bearings. I also found it funny that a simple question on WPC had them puzzled. I'm wondering if anything worthwhile will come from a phone call with them.

[cueballsi]

Originally Posted by Hopper

Rule of thumb; .001 of clearance for every inch of shaft dia. i.e. 2 inch shaft would get .002 clearance.

A little loose is better than a little tight.

WPC treatment works; I’ve used it on everything, but will only use it on my main and rod bearings.

Cryo is another process that I use, and it works.

What is the STD spec by subaru?

[SurfGuruJeff]

I just ordered a couple of sets... Std size King Mains, and extra oil clearance rod bearings.

If I get good clearances right away, I'm very hopeful that these will do well.

[juanmedina]

mine are the way to Crystal maybe he can post some pics

[SurfGuruJeff]

Originally Posted by juanmedina

mine are the way to Crystal maybe he can post some pics

Those are the ones I bought Maybe I'll do the ring gaps on your motor only kidding. Don't think Jeff would let me, haha

[juanmedina]

Originally Posted by SurfGuruJeff

Those are the ones I bought Maybe I'll do the ring gaps on your motor only kidding. Don't think Jeff would let me, haha

.... you better not.

[Crystal_Imprezav]

Originally Posted by juanmedina

.... you better not.

No to both of you. Juan sent his own bearings and stuff.

The FedEx man is really going to love me when your stuff get's here. 107lbs box he has to drag up 3 flights of stairs and decide if he is going to leave it or leave a notice and drag it back down and try to redeliver . BTW I hate FedEx so anyone that ever sends me anything send it UPS